Antifreeze??

[P.S.]

Hi gang,

So, did we ever get a definitive answer about what type or brand or whatever of modern antifreeze was safe to use in the Model A motor (besides straight alcohol)?? Something that won't harm the babbit in the event it enters the crankcase?

[31 Victoria]

Has anybody ever used Evan's waterless coolant? Jay Leno puts it in his Duesenbergs:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7PykrgzWPQ

[kevinmac/toledo]

if you get antifreeze in the crankcase.... babbit is the least of your problems at that point.....then alcohol will make you feel better...kev

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by P.S.

Hi gang,

So, did we ever get a definitive answer about what type or brand or whatever of modern antifreeze was safe to use in the Model A motor (besides straight alcohol)?? Something that won't harm the babbit in the event it enters the crankcase?

Nope and I predict we never will.

[kevinmac/toledo]

i put some of that red stuff in my car...started leaks in/around the hoses....flushed and went back to regular good antifreeze....put new leakless w/p on too...now trouble free........

[2manycars]

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I have been using ethylene glycol for many years, with no trouble.

[MrTube]

While I am a big fan of modern coolants like Dexcool and other long interval coolants they should never be used in the A.

Why? Well the biggest reason I know of is they do not like air mixed in the system and will sludge up. Thats enough for me to keep it in my modern vehicles and out of the A.

If Leno uses Evans in his Duesys I'd call it good enough for any car.

I don't know how or why anyone feels safe running straight water in an A without a corrosion inhibitor. I know many people do run a separate corrosion inhibitor but many don't.

For cheap, I'm with 2manycars, use ethylene glycol.

[Kurt in NJ]

I have had a babbited cap in a can of used antifreeze from a car that had a blown headgasket ---it still looks the same, ---no damage, nothing eaten away ---it doesn't matter what, if you dilute lubricating oil with 25% water, antifreeze, gasoline it isn't lubricating oil anymore, bearing damage will result if you keep driving.

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by MrTube

While I am a big fan of modern coolants like Dexcool and other long interval coolants they should never be used in the A.

Why? Well the biggest reason I know of is they do not like air mixed in the system and will sludge up. Thats enough for me to keep it in my modern vehicles and out of the A.

If Leno uses Evans in his Duesys I'd call it good enough for any car.

I don't know how or why anyone feels safe running straight water in an A without a corrosion inhibitor. I know many people do run a separate corrosion inhibitor but many don't.

For cheap, I'm with 2manycars, use ethylene glycol.

DEX-COOL IS JUNK - DO NOT USE IT IN ANYTHING OLD OR NEW
Certain cars are built with organic acid technology (OAT) antifreeze (e.g., DEX-COOL) which claimed to have an extended service life of five years or (150,000 mi).
DEX-COOL specifically has caused controversy. Litigation has linked it with intake manifold gasket failures in General Motors' (GM's) 3.1L and 3.4L engines, and with other failures in 3.8L and 4.3L engines. One of the anti-corrosion components presented as Sodium or Potassium, is incompatible with Nylon and Silicone rubber, and is known as Plasticizer. Class action lawsuits were registered in several states, and in Canada, to address some of these claims. The first of these to reach a decision was in Missouri where a settlement was announced early in December 2007. Late in March 2008, GM agreed to compensate complainants in the remaining 49 states. GM filed for bankruptcy in 2009, which tied up the outstanding claims until a court determines who gets paid......

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Mikeinnj

DEX-COOL IS JUNK - DO NOT USE IT IN ANYTHING OLD OR NEW
Certain cars are built with organic acid technology (OAT) antifreeze (e.g., DEX-COOL) which claimed to have an extended service life of five years or (150,000 mi).
DEX-COOL specifically has caused controversy. Litigation has linked it with intake manifold gasket failures in General Motors' (GM's) 3.1L and 3.4L engines, and with other failures in 3.8L and 4.3L engines. One of the anti-corrosion components presented as Sodium or Potassium, is incompatible with Nylon and Silicone rubber, and is known as Plasticizer. Class action lawsuits were registered in several states, and in Canada, to address some of these claims. The first of these to reach a decision was in Missouri where a settlement was announced early in December 2007. Late in March 2008, GM agreed to compensate complainants in the remaining 49 states. GM filed for bankruptcy in 2009, which tied up the outstanding claims until a court determines who gets paid......

Those were all the fault of using the wrong gaskets with the coolant, not the coolant it self. I think what you meant to type in all caps is THE GASKET AND COOLANT COMBINATION THEY USED WAS JUNK.

I ran Dex in my 92 350SBC for many years and it left my hands with 226K miles on it. I had ONE gasket failure in a vehicle from it and it was a 95 Lumina and oddly unlike most of the population I didn't blame the different color coolant, I blamed the gasket design. DEXCOOL is NOT junk and performs fantastic in the correct systems with correct gaskets. You posted something that had to do with gasket failures from the mid 90s to early 2000s. They are STILL using the coolant in 2013.

Either way this is not an argument to have on a model A forum.

[Fred K-OR]

Prestone 50 % with 50% water for our climate.

[Mike V. Florida]

Like I said there is no ONE type of anything to use in a Model A.

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Those were all the fault of using the wrong gaskets with the coolant, not the coolant it self. I think what you meant to type in all caps is THE GASKET AND COOLANT COMBINATION THEY USED WAS JUNK.

I ran Dex in my 92 350SBC for many years and it left my hands with 226K miles on it. I had ONE gasket failure in a vehicle from it and it was a 95 Lumina and oddly unlike most of the population I didn't blame the different color coolant, I blamed the gasket design. DEXCOOL is NOT junk and performs fantastic in the correct systems with correct gaskets. You posted something that had to do with gasket failures from the mid 90s to early 2000s. They are STILL using the coolant in 2013.

Either way this is not an argument to have on a model A forum.

Since you brought Dex-Cool into the conversation I might add that the Law Journal article I posted was printed in 2012 and it mentioned further in the article that GM vehicles up to 2008 were effected. And you are correct in implying that Government Motors used the wrong gaskets with Dex-Cool and I also I agree, your mention of Dex-Cool does not belong on this forum as it is for modern cars and not 80+ year old Model A Fords.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Kurt's personal "Antifreeze" experience reported in his reply in #8 appears most noteworthy & could possibly totally change the way Model A drivers continue to regard this particular "Antifreeze" theory of destroying babbitt bearings -- like, how long did the myth exists that the earth was flat until nobody could locate the flat edge of the earth?

Could it be that, for example:

1. "Antifreeze", (50/50 mix or otherwise) has absolutely no effect on a babbitt bearings submerged in "Antifreeze" for more than a year; or,

2. A babbitt bearing engine operated with a certain percentage of "Antifreeze" mixed in the oil will wear babbitt bearings out just as quickly as it will wear babbitt bearings with the same percentage of "pure water" in the oil; thus altering the viscous quality of lubrication.

Others may have conducted other true, time tested monitored experiments as Kurt did as opposed to reporting that an engine knock occurred with "Antifreeze" in the oil; hence, no doubt it was the "Antifreeze" that devoured the babbitt.

Personally never had a problem with 50/50 Prestone; but, maybe others may have different experiences & experiments to share.

Interesting!

[Ron/IA]

As stated above, the defenitive answer will never be found. As with the many disscussions on this forum. There are as many owners who have used every type antifreeze available, and had success; as there are just as many owners who have had failure.

Often times, reasons for and against are not backed up by conclusive evidence; just the word of the owner. While the owner is adement about his failure, there are just as many that had success.

The starter of the thread has a legimate question, and is hoping there will be one brand that will shine over all the others, but that never seems to happen.

I sometimes wish this type of question had an automatic filter that would not let it post.

Ron/IA

[ursus]

While it is correct that conventional antifreeze will not damage babbitt on direct exposure, the real problem comes not from the ethylene glycol but from the silicates used in many such products as a stop-leak additive. Coolant leaked into the crankcase will gradually become more concentrated as engine heat turns its water content into vapor that is blown off. The silicates then precipitate out of the solution in the form of fine abrasive crystals which cause rapid wear of the bearings. On a car that is driven for only very short trips this may not happen because there isn't enough heat to cook away the water and you will end up the a creamy water-in-oil emulsion that has limited lubricant properties (also not good for bearings.

Try this test: obtain a bottle of Sodium Silicate solution, also known as "egg keep" or "water glass", and also used by some to stop radiator leaks. Heat this slowly in a pan and you will observe the gradual formation of fine crystals as the water is cooked away. Rub some of these crystals between your fingers and think about what it would do to babbitt. The crystals are mainly silicon, the primary component of beach sand.

[AL in NY]

ursus, thanks for explanation of Babbitt failure using a silicated antifreeze. But this would also destroy newer type insert bearings as well. Antifreeze isn't meant to be mixed with oil in the crankcase. If it's in the crankcase, you've got a more serious problem to worry about then what type of antifreeze you're using.

[Mitch//pa]

A bearing Just sitting in a bucket of cold coolant wont do anything you need higher temps.

[Mitch//pa]

i also agree that dexcool is crap. i see more crappy clogged cooling systems from it but if its not used you void your warranty go figure.

[glenn in camino]

I use regular antifreez in my one Model A that has an aluminum head to fight electrolisis.