What's needed to install a 24 stud into an earlier 21 stud car

[Kube]

Yeah, yeah, I expect some teasing...
Thinking of installing a 24 stud (1938) engine into a '36.
I have never done this but am confident it's been done once or most likely a zillion times.
So, my question... what exactly do I need for a smooth installation?
IE: are there "direct fit" hoses available?
What do I do about the lower pumps ('38) vs. the head pumps ('36)?

Thanks guys.

[NealinCA]

Originally Posted by Kube

Yeah, yeah, I expect some teasing...
Thinking of installing a 24 stud (1938) engine into a '36.


IE: are there "direct fit" hoses available?


Thanks guys.

Here are your hoses:

https://bobdrake.com/products/1935-3...by08X7n-kjg6lf

You use the 37-48 pumps in the block.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by NealinCA

Here are your hoses:

https://bobdrake.com/products/1935-3...by08X7n-kjg6lf

You use the 37-48 pumps in the block.

Thank you!

[Seth Swoboda]

Not teasing, just curious, what happened to the '36 engine? Was/is it a large bearing engine?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

Not teasing, just curious, what happened to the '36 engine? Was/is it a large bearing engine?

Engine sat for decades and was apparently never placed into storage correctly. Cracked block (bad), and the usual "other issues".
I have a good '38 engine and frankly, this car isn't worth rebuilding a correct engine.

[KiWinUS]

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Kube I did this at 17 years old in my 36 I still have. Had no extra parts to speak of. Made uppers out of exhaust pipe and straight hose. So with your experience and parts you will have no problem.
I still have that engine. Actually it’s a 99a Canadian with 4 freeze plugs in pan rail. It’s about to get a stroker crank and back running also but the 36 has had it’s original LB back in it for years.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Kube I did this at 17 years old in my 36 I still have. Had no extra parts to speak of. Made uppers out of exhaust pipe and straight hose. So with your experience and parts you will have no problem.
I still have that engine. Actually it’s a 99a Canadian with 4 freeze plugs in pan rail. It’s about to get a stroker crank and back running also but the 36 has had it’s original LB back in it for years.

Thanks for the assurance. I appreciate the sentiment.

I'm kinda "changing lanes" at this stage in life. Decided not to do anymore 999 point restorations.
It's been, quite frankly, years, even decades really, since I have actually driven any of these old Fords more than a mile or two.
I have come to believe I need to change that.
Along with that change I thought it may be fun to simply get one of these old Fords back on the road, reliably and safely without the need for perfection.

[itslow]

Aren't some of the U-shaped engine mount spacers also needed when going from 21-stud to 24-stud?

Any fan pulley spacing considerations that need to be accounted for as well?

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by Kube

Thanks for the assurance. I appreciate the sentiment.

I'm kinda "changing lanes" at this stage in life. Decided not to do anymore 999 point restorations.
It's been, quite frankly, years, even decades really, since I have actually driven any of these old Fords more than a mile or two.
I have come to believe I need to change that.
Along with that change I thought it may be fun to simply get one of these old Fords back on the road, reliably and safely without the need for perfection.

I think you will have fun with this project. I enjoy and respect both fine point and drivers. The drivers are good for the soul.

[Cool Kat with Hot Car]

Gee Kube, what a concept. Build an early Ford to drive and enjoy? Never heard of such a thing.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Cool Kat with Hot Car

Gee Kube, what a concept. Build an early Ford to drive and enjoy? Never heard of such a thing.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Cool Kat with Hot Car

Gee Kube, what a concept. Build an early Ford to drive and enjoy? Never heard of such a thing.

Thanks for the big smile Cool Kat!

Ya know, I have thoroughly enjoyed restoring all of those cars in my past.
The research was always, believe it or not, quite enjoyable to me.

I had restored those vehicles to see what I was capable of, nothing more than that. Kind of a self-imposed test.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by itslow

Aren't some of the U-shaped engine mount spacers also needed when going from 21-stud to 24-stud?

Any fan pulley spacing considerations that need to be accounted for as well?

I think I addressed this (sort of) in the "8BA into '35 coupe" thread the other day. My take on this is that the difference is between the '35-'40 and '41 -'48 chassis, and is based on the work Hurst did when designing their engine mounting "system" for these old Fords (which called for the "U"-shaped spacers when installing their standard engine mounts into the ''35-'40 chassis).

Fans? You're on your own.

[Ken/Alabama]

I put a 59A in a 36 about 20 years ago. Best I remember it was pretty straight forward other than the radiator hoses. Used the 36 generator and fan also.

[38 coupe]

The 36 intake, generator, and fan should swap directly on the 38 motor and allow normal clearance to the radiator.
Not that it matters much if it is an assembled and running engine, but the short nose crankshaft 38 engine (if it is one of the one year only 24 stud engines) should make fan belt changes easier in the earlier chassis.

[Cool Kat with Hot Car]

Kube,


I admire those who take the time to do a full correct restoration. I try to make my Fords nice and enjoyable to drive. I think you will find it to be very satisfying to find and assemble the parts to make a safe, reliable Early V-8 that is compatible with modern driving conditions. If I may, I would like to share my observations. Part one are the common, traditional upgrades made by old Ford guys for ever. These are all things that were done to my 36 roadster which was restored in 1962, the first V8 restoration made in Sacramento as far as I know. Part two is what I feel adds to these modifications


Part 1:
Addition of juice brakes, using a 1939 pedal assembly. Safety, ease of adjustment, readily available new parts


Use of 1939 transmission. There is a world of difference in shifting a well built 39 box over previous trannys. They add a great deal of driving enjoyment. Recommend the 28 tooth cluster, avoid LZ gears for your car.


1937 steering. Such a great improvement. Not a big deal to change over a 36.


Crab distributor. Simplifies wiring, Easier for roadside repairs. Coil replacement simplified.


Convert to 12 volts.


Add a Columbia. The flexibility of instant gear ratio changes, and increased driveability at highway speeds make it a must for me. There is a great feelig of satisfaction when the Columbia you rebuilt is shifted, for me super fun! I recommend a 3.78 ring and pinion.


Add tube shocks. Will ride better and end the headache of restoring the original pains in the ass


Part two:
Install a 40 front axle with the sway bar. I believe that 40 springs give a softer ride due to recalibration as they did not have to be as stiff due to the bar.


Add a pass through electric fuel pump. Good if pump fails,good to prime when crap gas evaporates after sitting, hopefully can overcome vapor lock.


Add a generator converted to an alternator. The coils, condensers, voltage regulators currently available seem to be junk right out of the box. In the last few years I have been sidelined by all of these items. An alternator will eliminate them. E.J. Whitney may still be doing the conversion of the fan mount generators.


Add led tail lights. I hate the look, but our sweet little tail lights are all but invisible to the idiots on the road.


Add turn signals. Fronts can be disguised with fog lights.


Add seat belts


Maybe use larger diameter rear view mirrors.


I have not done this yet but Drake sells (maybe) a rear shock/sway bar kit. The shocks are gas and may be pretty stiff. I will try this on my next build but have no real world experience yet.


Use one of the available bias look radial tire sets. My brother put a set on his 37 pickup. The change was dramatic. He drives the truck on the mean freeways of L.A. The truck handles the crappy roads much better, is more stable, rides better, stops better, and believe it or not at least 70% of the rattles went away! Taking turns is significantly better. Plus he lost 30 pounds and sleeps better.


Install dual exhaust. All flatheads want to burble down the road with the marvelous sound of Henry's V-8


Build up a mild 59A series engine. Toss in a 4 or 4 1/8 Merc. crank, add a cam ground like a late Merc. Run stock heads and a single carb. for simplicity. You will really enjoy your car.



There you go, have fun

[Brian]

I'm following this thread with much interest....I've always highly admired kube's accomplishments, he would have to be the 39-40 Guru in the world. A few years back he bought a 36, as a driver, I believe...but the springs had settled somewhat from where they sat when on the showroom floor, so the search was on for nos, not aftermarket, springs to rectify this....dunno how he ever got on in that quest....

Now we have cool Kat, who obviously knows how to 'improve' the driving experience offering his well intentioned views to kube in good faith....
I mean absolutely no offence with what I've written above, but I've owned my 35 since 1971, originally built dead stock, but modified over the ensuing years to become an excellent driver, hence my interest in this post....in my opinion, Henry gave us a fabulous platform from which we could spend our entire lifetimes working on, driving , enjoying his wonderful achievement. That's the thing: to build a vehicle that suits our desires, there is no right way, nor wrong way, just 'your' way!
Partially influenced by kube, [but I've always thought that 39 coupes are soooo stylish], I have bought a 39 Deluxe coupe. I know how [again, my opinion] how to build a car, I followed the same style as I have currently built my 35 to....I am pretty well dis-illusioned with 39's...in my opinion, a 35-36 is a much finer vehicle. For example, should I wish to access the windscreen wiper motor in the 39, I need to deal with the hood lining being glued into place, whereas in a 35-36, you simply remove the [removeable] header.

Kube, enjoy the 36, great car, i am positive that whatever you do to it, will result in an exceptionally well driving car.

[mfirth]

If anyone can do this swap, surely you can. Go Mike go ................of course we need pictures .......

[Kube]

Guys, each and every one of you has been helpful and too kind. Thanks to each of you for that
I do plan on making this car very reliable and road worthy, nothing more. No painting, no plating.
I will keep everything stock with the exception of the engine block.
I have two '36 Fords. One with '39 brakes, the other with the original mechanical brakes. Both are set up quite well. In reality I believe the mechanical brakes stop better than the hydraulic version.
Also, I have never felt the need for a backup fuel pump, 12v. system, etc.
My cars, every one of them starts and operates very nicely being 100% stock.

Yep, I am actually excited about this project. Now I just need to convince myself it doesn't need to be competed in two weeks. I tend to have one speed "go!".

Thanks again fellas. You are all appreciated.

[Bored&Stroked]

I've found that mechanical brakes work quite well . . . up until you get to higher speeds (over 55 mph) and/or use them a lot (long downhill grades at higher speeds). I think the more modern 'Bendix' style of brakes are a solid update to the Lockheed style brakes that many of us have used.

On the tire side, I put the Excelsior Radials on my 32 Cabriolet and they dramatically improve the handling and safety of these older cars ---> again, especially at higher speeds, around corners, etc..

As others have mentioned, I really like the E.J. Whitney alternator conversion and would really want to run the BEST headlight/taillight solutions possible ---> that could be either Halogen bulbs (they take a lot of amps) or a LED retrofit bulbs. Original lights at night are just not a great solution for a car you want to drive a lot.

Hey Kube: If you decide to hop-up that later flathead, be happy to help you in any area where you might have questions. More cubic inches and power are surely a help in pulling highway grades with a Columbia in the rear.