Dropping oil pan in the car

[oldspert]

It has been over 60 years since I worked on a Model A. Question is can I drop the pan with the engine in the car? Does the oil pump fall out when the pan drops or is there a way to keep it in the block? I just recently bought a 29 Coupe and it has a bad rear oil leak. Hopefully I won't have to pull the engine to fix the leak. Any help appreciated.

[WHN]

You can remove oil pan with the engine installed.

Oil pump will stay in place if the bolt on the right lower side of engine is in place. It’s just above the oil pan ridge, directly down from the distributor. Oil gauge line is installed at this place. It is not standard tread, supplies sell the right one.

Enjoy.

[Herb Concord Ca]

Yes you can remove the oil pan with the engine in the car. The suppliers sell a little device that threads in the block to hold the oil pump in place when you remove the pan.

[Bigsnapper43]

Do not use a bolt to hold the pump in place!! This is a pipe thread. A bolt will give you an oil leak. Get the little tool.

[Marshall V. Daut]

I'm glad someone else warned about using a bolt there instead of the simple plug that came from the factory in the engine block. Sometimes my comments may come off as being too alarmist, but jeez! If anything can go wrong with a Model A, it's probably happened to me since 1966! 'Been there, 'done that, 'didn't like it. My admonishments are based 99% on bitter personal experience. Learn from other people's mistakes - mine!
Anyway, the whole reason there's a plug on the side of the engine instead of a bolt is because the oil pump is designed to ride on that large coil spring on its bottom side and be able to "flex" vertically while the engine runs. A bolt holding the pump in place will keep it too rigid and make its cast iron body prone to breaking at the pan line. I have experienced that and have seen it many times when a bolt was used instead of the plug. Why do you think Ford engineers went to the extra expense and assembly line trouble of installing a spring here instead of simply running bolt through the block to keep the pump in place? Using a bolt to hold the pump from falling while re-installing the oil pan can ruin the threads in the block because those threads are for a pipe fitting, not a bolt. That's why those little doo-hickeys sold by the vendors have pipe threads instead of bolt threads. Yes, screwing a bolt into the block will keep the pump in place during pan re-assembly, but after removing the bolt, it's unlikely that plug will fit properly or be able to stop an oil leak.
Marshall

[Tom Endy]

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Another tip:

Get some threaded stock the same thread size as the pan bolts. Cut them to about four inches long. Make four of them. Screw a nut on the end of ech one. Remove four pan bolts, two on ech side and screw the studs into where the bolts were removed. Remove the rest of the bolts. The pan will probably be stuck because of sealer. When you pry it loose it will only come down as far as the studs.

Use the studs for re-installation. Makes it easier.

Tom Endy

[john charlton]

I wish some kind soul will explain to me why the oil pump must be held in the block when the pan is dropped . That brass plug was put in the block to stay there . I am sure Ford intended the pump to drop with the pan .The oil pump is the heart of the engine now is the time to put it on the bench and give it a health check . All parts are readily available it is an easy rebuild ,if the bottom plate has been worn by the gears just turn it upside down and refit . Check the spring for corrosion sometimes the bottom coil gets thin and will break . As a previous poster says the pump is not designed to be locked to the block by a bolt . When you drop the pan rarely the pump stays stuck in the block take GREAT CARE freeing it the stalk is fairly fragile and can break ( not cool) It is easy to hold the pump up when refitting the pan ,loop a cable tie through the adjacent pan bolt holes around the pump stalk and pull tight . When the pan is nearly home clip the tie and pull clear . Use a flash light and mirror to check alignment of the drive slot and the pump will push up and in ,piece of cake .

John back in Spring Suffolk County England back to sunny Chandler AZ for 90 days in Oct .

[nkaminar]

In all due respect, it is easier to pull the engine to do any work on it. Not that I don't like lying on cold concrete getting oil and grease in my hair and eyes. You will likely want to do more work on the engine after removing the pan. If you have the engine on a stand, you can turn it upside down to remove the pan and work on the bottom end and right side up to remove the head and work on the valves, and flywheel up to work on the clutch. I takes 2 to 3 hours to remove the accessory parts, including manifolds, and remove the engine from the car. And another 2 to 3 hours to put it back in.

[Rob Doe]

Oldspert, you aren't by chance keeping the oil level in the pan too high are you? The rear main is supposed to leak a small amount of oil. The keyword being 'small'. Just checking...

[john charlton]

I do not pull the pan to work on it ,for inspection use only . If the vehicle is new to me I like to see how clean inside it is ,any bearing shims ,condition of camshaft etc etc . I put the pan in a sturdy garbage bag and hard drop it on a flat surface open side down .The dipper tray pops out plus a lot of the sludge then clean out .

John in same place etc etc.

[oldspert]

Originally Posted by Rob Doe

Oldspert, you aren't by chance keeping the oil level in the pan too high are you? The rear main is supposed to leak a small amount of oil. The keyword being 'small'. Just checking...

Having just bought this car, I filled the oil to the "F" on the dipstick, drove it maybe 1/4 mile, pulled it back in the garage and the dipstick was 1/2 way between F and Add. Slightly bigger than a small amount of leakage.

[JayJay]

Couple of things to think about:

1. A lot of us find that the engine likes to run with the oil level about halfway between E and F. All the way to the F and it spills out.

2. Yes, you can drop the oil pan with the engine in. Dropping it is fairly straightforward. Replacing it, with the new cork seals front and rear and the oil pan gasket, is a pain. And if you drop the pan you will only be able to replace the lower half of each of the seals unless you also drop the crankshaft.

3. Definitely use the gizmo sold by the vendors to hold the oil pump in when you drop the pan. As noted in an earlier thread, a 1/4"-28 bolt might feel like it will work, but the actual thread is a 1/8" NPT, which is a 27 TPI, not 28 TPI. You will bugger up the threads.

4. As long as you have the pan off, you might want to pull bearing caps and check the condition of the babbitt. And check clearances and adjust shims accordingly.

5. All these things are a lot easier with the engine on an engine stand, upside down. Just something to think about.

JayJay

[31a]

there is a tool A 67982 oil pan installation guides Snyders catalog the is very helpful putting the pan back on

[cas3]

I use a brass fitting with 1/8 pipe on it, then tap threads inside to run a screw in to hold it. free and easy

[Chris in WNC]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

takes 2 to 3 hours to remove the accessory parts, including manifolds, and remove the engine from the car. And another 2 to 3 hours to put it back in.

When we lost a clutch disk at the national meet in Marquette, it took my wife Alice and I two hours to have the engine out of the car. Since we were only doing clutch work we left the manifolds &c in place.

About the same time to put it back, with some friends helping line up the driveshaft splines.

Agree it's waaay easier to work on the engine on a stand. Chances are excellent you will end up doing more than just removing/replacing the pan.......

[oldspert]

Originally Posted by cas3

I use a brass fitting with 1/8 pipe on it, then tap threads inside to run a screw in to hold it. free and easy

I had already thought about doing just that after seeing one in one of the catalogs.

[MilwaukeeMike]

You can buy or make a tool. I recommend all brass to lessen the chance of damaging the pump. Get a brass fitting that fits the hole. Tap the center for a machine screw. Thread into block and gently tighten screw against the pump. It should hold while pan is being removed or replaced.

[[email protected]]

To get the pan down it is first necessary to remove the sheet metal cover on the front of the flywheel housing as it will obstruct the downward movement of the pan. Held in place with three small bolts that take a 7/16" wrench to get out. Put pan up first and then replace this cover.

[john charlton]

But still no one has told me why the pump must stay in the block read my post .

John in West Drayton ,London, England cool sunny spells day .

[Brianpfreeman]

I need to do the same thing. My plug won’t come out to put a holder in place for the oil pump. Any other way to hold the pump?