Enamel and lacquer paint

[philcobill]

I have a couple of questions about paint. I am not a paint expert but my late father who previously owned my Model A was. He was a professional auto body repair man. So I learned a little bit from him.



It is my understanding that the chassis and fenders splash aprons etc were originally painted with black enamel. When my father did a complete restoration in the 1970's I remember he sandblasted most of the metal in the car and re-painted it. My job was to paint the frame with black enamel using a paint brush, I imagine current paint on the frame could be the very paint I applied. I believe my dad used primer and lacquer on the fenders etc as well as the body of the car.

My question is, is it not unusual for the fender etc, the non-body parts of the car to be painted with lacquer? Since I am not a paint expert how do I tell what my father did?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by philcobill

I have a couple of questions about paint. I am not a paint expert but my late father who previously owned my Model A was. He was a professional auto body repair man. So I learned a little bit from him.

It is my understanding that the chassis and fenders splash aprons etc were originally painted with black enamel. When my father did a complete restoration in the 1970's I remember he sandblasted most of the metal in the car and re-painted it. My job was to paint the frame with black enamel using a paint brush, I imagine current paint on the frame could be the very paint I applied. I believe my dad used primer and lacquer on the fenders etc as well as the body of the car.

My question is, is it not unusual for the fender etc, the non-body parts of the car to be painted with lacquer? Since I am not a paint expert how do I tell what my father did?

I am going to answer in paragraphs that match your paragraphs above.

1) I am sure you have great memories.

2) Just to make sure you are clear, ...the frame was painted with Gilsonite which was a tar-like paint. It wasn't really enamel. Many other areas of the chassis were coated in Alkyd Enamel applied in a dipping process. All Fenders and Aprons were dipped in enamel also. It IS likely the paint on the frame is indeed lacquer, and because your dad mediablasted the frame and used a primer, the lacquer top-coat has held-up well. Lacquer paints hold-up very well if they are properly applied without excessive substrate thickness.

3) Restoration work done on Model-As some 30, 40, 50+ years ago was not always done authentically or accurately, -but then it was more about what the hobbyist restorer's abilities were and what (s)he was familiar with. If your dad was used to spraying lacquer at work, he likely did the same on your Model-A at home. Determining what your dad did will be difficult to determine without seeing it. Someone that is experienced at spraying enamel and lacquer can easily tell the difference if they can visually see it upclose, however most modern painters have never been around those type of paints and typically would be unable to differentiate between the two.

[rotorwrench]

In 1970, lacquer and alkyd enamel were still available and used by many. In the modern era, both are very hard to source in their original formula. They were replaced with acrylic formulas back in the mid 20th century for most work. The acrylics took over for the most part. Polyurethane and acrylic urethane began to become more popular due to their capability to withstand more abuse after completely cured. Those that didn't wait till they were completely cured paid the price with rock and bug damage.

With modern EPA rules, many of the old 2K type two part mix paints have fallen out of favor due to volatile organic compounds or VOCs. They are still used for some primers but are slowly being ruled out. Modern era base coat/clear coat paints have pretty much taken over and many are waterbourne formulas or polyester resin formulas that are coated over with clear coat acrylic resins. Low VOC is the rule in California these days. Many pigments contain heavy metals so they are the first to go.

I still used urethane based single stage 2K paints and will continue to do so until they are no longer available.

I've read that gilsonite mined in Utah was the basis for Ford's Japan Black lacquer. Many bitumin based products came from that stuff. Some bitumin based paints are still available and are used for re-coating battery boxes in aircraft. It was also used to coat radiators back in the day.

[Bob Bidonde]

The aprons and fenders are parts of a Model "A" that are prone to scratches and chips. so you should use a rugged paint that can be touched-up easily. Currently, single stage urethane paint over an epoxy primer provides these characteristics. I suggest that you avoid clear coating because it is not as durable as single stage, it adds substantially to the cost of of a paint job, and it makes touch-up much more difficult.

[rotorwrench]

Sun light eats up clear coats due to the complete penetration of the utraviolet radiation. It's best to garage or cover a clear coat paint job as much as possible.

[Mulletwagon]

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Enamel or lacquer ? The way to tell is to put some lacquer thinner on a rag and rub it on the paint in a non-visable area. Lacquer will disolve and be visable on the rag - enamel will not.

[JoeCB]

Black enamel dip paint process. I was a process engineer at the Detroit Cadillac Clark St plant for 31 years, we still had the huge enamel dip tank, conveyor ran all the secondary metal thru, inner fenders, radiator cradle, and various miscellaneous chassis parts. The Clark plant was built in the 20's and that paint technology may have been an old holdover. I doubt the more modern auto paint shops used the "dip". But it sure did a nice heavy coat on that metal.
Joe B

[Steve Schmauch]

Hello Bill Jr. Your dad painted all sheet metal for his restorations with lacquer. I helped him with several of his restorations, working along side him in the 1970's through 2006 in his shop. Hope this helps.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Mulletwagon

Enamel or lacquer ? The way to tell is to put some lacquer thinner on a rag and rub it on the paint in a non-visable area. Lacquer will disolve and be visable on the rag - enamel will not.

I'm pretty sure lacquer thinner will also dissolve old-style non-catalyzed enamels... we used to use lacquer thinner to clean paint guns (two pots of paint thinner, then one pot of lacquer thinner to finish up).

JayJay

[J Franklin]

Fresh paint notwithstanding, I think the lacquer thinner test works as it takes a much longer factor of time to soften aged enamel paint.

[marc silva]

Todays lacquer thinner is not like the old stuff. That being said, lacquer thinner in general will attack most paints.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Low VOC is the rule in California these days. Many pigments contain heavy metals so they are the first to go.

I still used urethane based single stage 2K paints and will continue to do so until they are no longer available.

I've got a friend who is a salesman for a paint warehouse to body shops. He let me in on a little secret. The state of CA regulates the paint that businesses can use - not the stuff you can use in your garage. He said it's perfectly legal for him to sell solvent based paints to an individual but not a body shop. It's like when my company sent me to the 40 hour "responsible person" asbestos removal class. What I took away was that as a homeowner I could legally remove asbestos from my home and toss it in my trash can - but if I hired someone to do it the removal/disposal laws set in and would cost thousands to have my popcorn ceiling spray removed.

[Keith True]

I asked the paint guy I use here just when laquer became illegal,he said never.He said it's just easier to say it's illegal and blame the gubmint than to explain to a half dozen old car guys per year why he can't keep thousands of dollars worth of product around just for them.He did sell for a while after most others had stopped,but when it got to the point that over 90%of his product had aged out he gave it up.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

I've got a friend who is a salesman for a paint warehouse to body shops. He let me in on a little secret. The state of CA regulates the paint that businesses can use - not the stuff you can use in your garage. He said it's perfectly legal for him to sell solvent based paints to an individual but not a body shop. It's like when my company sent me to the 40 hour "responsible person" asbestos removal class. What I took away was that as a homeowner I could legally remove asbestos from my home and toss it in my trash can - but if I hired someone to do it the removal/disposal laws set in and would cost thousands to have my popcorn ceiling spray removed.

If I remember correctly it needs to be in quart cans or less, not gallons. But yeah, same rule applies to wood floor and cabinet coatings - you can use old-fashioned solvent-based polyurethane but have to buy it in quart cans. If you can find it. Contractors will have you (homeowner) buy it and they will apply it.

Gotta love the Peoples Republic of California.

JayJay