The Ford Barn

Vic in E-TN · 12-23-2015, 11:36 AM

Is there a single book or paper written showing the design differences and the theoretical advantages of say the Thomas, Winfield, Simmonds and others. I don't want to read a book or books touting any one. I have a pair of Brumfield heads on cars from 15 or 20 years ago and I am happy with their performance but I have a pair of cars that will need better heads next year. Hopefully, Tod will have some for sale.

Thanks,
Vic

Rex_A_Lott · 12-23-2015, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

Is there a single book or paper written showing the design differences and the theoretical advantages of say the Thomas, Winfield, Simmonds and others. I don't want to read a book or books touting any one. I have a pair of Brumfield heads on cars from 15 or 20 years ago and I am happy with their performance but I have a pair of cars that will need better heads next year. Hopefully, Tod will have some for sale.

Thanks,
Vic

Jim Brierley's book is a good one. You can do a search and find Harry Ricardo's theories of combustion chamber design. Depends how much reading you want to do.

In the end, your choice will likely be made by what you can find available for sale and/or what you are willing to spend. Good Luck

Bruce Lancaster · 12-23-2015, 12:48 PM

Harry Ricardo was hired by the British during WWI to sort out the dismal performance of early tank engines. The resulting Ricardo chamber sorted out pre-ignition/knock and flow by applying lots of turbulence, and kept L heads competitive in the auto industry for many years. Ford moved to Ricardo chambers during '35-6 and standardized them from 1937, and was sued for failing to pay Ricardo his cut.
I suspect that a lot of funny chambers in '1920's-30's speed heads resulted from trying to find Ricardo effectiveness without a royalty check to Sir Harry.
You need to locate an early edition of his book (The High Speed IC Engine, or close to that) because in later years he moved along to really exotic fighter plane engines and diesels. Any biblio on that British book? It sounds like it will hurt my head at least as much as Ricardo.

Rex_A_Lott · 12-23-2015, 02:50 PM

This ought to keep you busy for a few minutes:
https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/40...icdancrnxypd05

Rex_A_Lott · 12-23-2015, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forever4

There is one book that I have, and it is the only technical/theoretical book I have ever seen. It is a small orange-colored A5 hardback, published in the UK in the 1950s I think, and deals exclusively with flat head (Ford style) cylinder head and combustion chamber design for induction theory, spark plug placement, turbulence, etc.

It is an academic type text book at a post graduate level, and I could never learn much from it, based on my existing knowledge and experience, but it appears well written and concise and specific. As I recall it refers to mathematic equations, dyno testing and comparisons, etc, but definitely not based on racers experience.

I have not had it out in years, and do not recall the exact name or author.

I would very much like to read this book. While I can understand that you would not want to loan this book, if you have the chance to find out the exact name and author, it could probably be borrowed on an inter-library loan if it could be found. Thanks.

Bruce Lancaster · 12-23-2015, 03:15 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

P. 103, figure 39 of the Ricardo edition posted by Lott shows the basic idea, with adjacent discussion. I never think to look online...
Ford went to slanted valves with the '32 V8 and the '32 British small four cylinder that was otherwise very similar to a small mirror image of A-B engines...the Vauxhall engine shown later in the book is designed thus.
The substantially later editions lack the L-head section, as Ricardo was doing things like Napier Saber and other attempts to keep gas engines competitive in high performance aircraft. The jets won, of course, but some of the piston engines were astonishing.

Vic in E-TN · 12-23-2015, 04:57 PM

Bruce and Rex_A_Lott:
Thanks for the information. For sure this is heavy duty reading. I went to the library and they will search the entire Tennessee library system for it. Amazon has a little but some of what thy have is very high priced.

I foolishly thought that I could have made a guess as to which head (combustion chamber) design was theoretically better by reading up on the theory. I will be on the line to purchase one of Tod's heads when they become available.

Vic

Tod · 12-23-2015, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

Bruce and Rex_A_Lott:
Thanks for the information. For sure this is heavy duty reading. I went to the library and they will search the entire Tennessee library system for it. Amazon has a little but some of what thy have is very high priced.

I foolishly thought that I could have made a guess as to which head (combustion chamber) design was theoretically better by reading up on the theory. I will be on the line to purchase one of Tod's heads when they become available.

Vic

Keep in mind the 6:1 from Snyder's. It has a Stipe designed chamber, and Don says they are great. One was used on an endurance race in Australia lately and it performed perfectly.

I made the pattern equipment for it and I machine them regularly.

Tod

Rex_A_Lott · 12-23-2015, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

I foolishly thought that I could have made a guess as to which head (combustion chamber) design was theoretically better by reading up on the theory.

Vic

If it was that easy old women and children would be doing it.

Try searching the web for Harley Davidson flathead stuff also. Dont forget Briggs and Stratton designs for what is going on in todays world of Junior Dragsters also.
Be careful what you ask for....

colin1928 · 12-24-2015, 01:04 AM

A long with Harry Ricardo books and What Harley published in the 70s and Briggs and Stratton you may want read Phil Irving books

Jim Brierley · 12-24-2015, 12:05 PM

Rex-a lot, thanks for the plug! If Vic will e-mail me at [email protected] I will send him the chapter on heads and compression. Winfield chambers are very good and I recommend them. I haven't seen the one by Bill Stipe but he does nice work and tests things on a dyno so should be good too. Harley-Davidson did a lot of work on chamber design, so they should know.

12-23-2015, 11:36 AM	#1
Vic in E-TN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Maryville, TN Posts: 491	Head Design ? Is there a single book or paper written showing the design differences and the theoretical advantages of say the Thomas, Winfield, Simmonds and others. I don't want to read a book or books touting any one. I have a pair of Brumfield heads on cars from 15 or 20 years ago and I am happy with their performance but I have a pair of cars that will need better heads next year. Hopefully, Tod will have some for sale. Thanks, Vic

12-23-2015, 12:48 PM	#3
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Head Design ? Harry Ricardo was hired by the British during WWI to sort out the dismal performance of early tank engines. The resulting Ricardo chamber sorted out pre-ignition/knock and flow by applying lots of turbulence, and kept L heads competitive in the auto industry for many years. Ford moved to Ricardo chambers during '35-6 and standardized them from 1937, and was sued for failing to pay Ricardo his cut. I suspect that a lot of funny chambers in '1920's-30's speed heads resulted from trying to find Ricardo effectiveness without a royalty check to Sir Harry. You need to locate an early edition of his book (The High Speed IC Engine, or close to that) because in later years he moved along to really exotic fighter plane engines and diesels. Any biblio on that British book? It sounds like it will hurt my head at least as much as Ricardo.

12-23-2015, 02:50 PM	#4
Rex_A_Lott Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Upstate South Carolina Posts: 794	Re: Head Design ? This ought to keep you busy for a few minutes: https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/40...icdancrnxypd05

12-23-2015, 03:15 PM	#6
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Head Design ? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) P. 103, figure 39 of the Ricardo edition posted by Lott shows the basic idea, with adjacent discussion. I never think to look online... Ford went to slanted valves with the '32 V8 and the '32 British small four cylinder that was otherwise very similar to a small mirror image of A-B engines...the Vauxhall engine shown later in the book is designed thus. The substantially later editions lack the L-head section, as Ricardo was doing things like Napier Saber and other attempts to keep gas engines competitive in high performance aircraft. The jets won, of course, but some of the piston engines were astonishing. Last edited by Bruce Lancaster; 12-23-2015 at 03:37 PM.

12-23-2015, 04:57 PM	#7
Vic in E-TN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Maryville, TN Posts: 491	Re: Head Design ? Bruce and Rex_A_Lott: Thanks for the information. For sure this is heavy duty reading. I went to the library and they will search the entire Tennessee library system for it. Amazon has a little but some of what thy have is very high priced. I foolishly thought that I could have made a guess as to which head (combustion chamber) design was theoretically better by reading up on the theory. I will be on the line to purchase one of Tod's heads when they become available. Vic

12-24-2015, 01:04 AM	#10
colin1928 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Australa Melbourne Posts: 878	Re: Head Design ? A long with Harry Ricardo books and What Harley published in the 70s and Briggs and Stratton you may want read Phil Irving books

12-24-2015, 12:05 PM	#11
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,085	Re: Head Design ? Rex-a lot, thanks for the plug! If Vic will e-mail me at [email protected] I will send him the chapter on heads and compression. Winfield chambers are very good and I recommend them. I haven't seen the one by Bill Stipe but he does nice work and tests things on a dyno so should be good too. Harley-Davidson did a lot of work on chamber design, so they should know.