Starter Hung Up

[Lembomw]

Well, I thought I was almost done with the rebuild of my ’30 Tudor. The engine, transmission (F150-4 speed) and the starter were rebuilt by professionals. I changed to 12V and had the starter converted to 12V. Everything is new and no miles on the car yet.

For the past 2 weeks the car has been starting perfectly. Today I wanted to show a friend how the engine ran and forgot to open the gas shut off. In my haste to get it running I hit the starter a few times too fast and locked up the starter to the flywheel. It was making a bad “dragging” kind of noise but the engine was turning over very slowly. I removed the cover on the back of the bellhousing and could see that the pinion was forward and engaged with the flywheel. I looked at prior posts regarding this situation and most suggestions that worked were to put it in 3rd gear and rock it back for forth until you hear a “POP” indicating that the pinion disengaged

I put the transmission in 4th gear and rocked back and forth many times. We (my wife and I) could see the flywheel turning bit by bit and was making a not so good dragging noise but no “POP” that disengaged the pinion gear.

Now what? Is there an easy way to get the Bendix pinion gear disengaged other than removing the engine and transmission?? Can I disassemble the starter to the point where I can manually tap the pinion gear from the flywheel? This may really mess up the starter but it is easier than pulling the engine and transmission and everything else that is related to it.

Thank you for your help

Mark

[Tom Wesenberg]

Remove the three starter bolts and try to remove the starter. If you can't, then remove the 2 long bolts holding the starter together, and you should be able to joggle the starter out.

[Mitch//pa]

after removing the starter to housing bolts you may have to gently caress it out with a large dead blow hammer

[Lembomw]

Tom/Mitch, thank you for your responses. I will try both suggestions tomorrow and provide an update.

Thanks again, Mark

[ford3]

that usually happens if the bendix shaft is bent

[Lembomw]

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Thanks Ford3. Hmmm, bendix shaft bent. What is the fix for that? New starter or can the place that rebuilt the starter and changed it to 12V straighten it? Doesnt the bendix go on the end of the armature shaft? Replace the armature Since it was hung up and I was trying to start the car I probably messed up the bendix drive any way so something is probably going to need to be replaced. Maybe I should just switch the starter out for one of the gear reduced starters that Snyders has for 12V systems. It looks like a modern starter but would need to convert to a push button rather than the foot activated method. Does anyone have experience with one of these starters??

Mark

[Tom Wesenberg]

If you have a bent armature, it's easy to make a tool like I did to straighten them. You can also use a press and V blocks or a couple pieces of wood to rest the shaft ends on.

Just spin the armature and find the high spot, then tighten the large nut on the bottom to pull the shaft down. It's quick and easy.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Did you try to start the engine with the spark advanced? It's easy to forget when you're in a hurry.

[Lembomw]

Tom, thank you for the info. Glad to hear that all may not be lost if the armature is bent. I will be going out to the garage in an hour to take the starter apart and tap the pinion out of the flywheel.

Chuck, I have electronic ignition on the car now so that is one thing that I could not screw up.

I will post how I get this out (assuming I do get it out).

Thank you all for your input.

[tbirdtbird]

Tom, you have crafted a cache of amazing jigs.......

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

Tom, you have crafted a cache of amazing jigs.......

Thanks. I wish I had taken pictures of each one as I made it, so it would be easier to find them. I have too many pictures and it takes a while to find things I'm looking for.

[Ross/Kzoo]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

Tom, you have crafted a cache of amazing jigs.......

That's the truth. I enjoy seeing how Tom seems to has the simplest approach to correcting problems.

[insomniacshotrods]

Mine locked up on me and thanks to the forums i put it in 3rd and rocked the car and heard the pop. Started up after that fine,hope im not going to have this problem often.

[sidhartha]

Originally Posted by Lembomw

Chuck, I have electronic ignition on the car now so that is one thing that I could not screw up.

Even with an electronic ignition you still have to retard the distributor to start the car. Unless you have an auto advance system installed.

[modeleh]

When that happened with my AA, an old time Model T guy came to my rescue, we put the transmission in high gear then put a strap on the front bumper and pulled ahead with a tow vehicle. No amount of pushing by hand was going to pop it loose. My remedy was to install one of the modern bendixes sold by vendors and it cured the problem.

There will be some debate as to whether you should pull the car ahead or back, but I was at a gas pump at the time and we only had the room to pull the truck forward and it worked.

[Kurt in NJ]

Is it a stock starter drive---or one of the "improved" modern ones ---some of the "improved" drives need to be spun up to release

[mralternator]

Cranking with Higher Voltage—We said earlier that a starter cannot create enough force on its own to break a housing . We should have clarified that this is true only if it is being used with the voltage for which it was designed. There are still people out there who believe that it is okay to double the voltage to a starter without damaging anything—6 volts to 12 volts or 12 volts to 24 volts. When you double the voltage without changing the resistance in the starter, you will cause amperage to double at the same time. Power is equal to voltage multiplied by amperage, so you will be quadrupling the power of the starter if you double the voltage. To put this into perspective, a 1kW starter suddenly has the torque of a 4kW starter.
Failed Start—Whenever an engine is cranked and fails to start, the engine will stop near the top of a compression stroke, but it does not sit there long. Usually, it will roll back slightly to relieve pressure in the cylinder. That reverse motion of the crankshaft may take several seconds and be unnoticeable. If the operator is in a hurry and attempts to re-engage the engine during that roll-back, a head-on collision between the ring gear and the starter drive takes place. This probably accounts for more damaged starters than any other cause. Delco-Remy put out a service bulletin explaining it in 1955 . They obviously saw it as a problem then, as it still is today.
Starting Fluids—The use of ether or other starting fluids can cause detonation if used in diesel applications unless the manufacturer prescribes it. This untimely explosion can break housings, pinion gears and even armature shafts .
Ignition Timing—Kick-back while cranking can be caused by an ignition timing problem and can result in a broken starter housing. On an older vehicle with a distributor, this could be caused by a cracked distributor cap or faulty plug wires. On new engines, defective crank position sensors can result in kick-back during cranking.
Ring-Gear-to-Pinion-Clearance—Incorrect clearance between the pinion and ring gear can break a housing, too. If clearance is insufficient, and the teeth bottom out, you can easily get enough lateral pressure to crack a housing. Examine the pinion closely for signs of too little clearance. This was once a common problem with GM pad-mount starters , but it can also happen on Fords, if the bell-housing cover plate that locates a Ford starter is damaged. Engine, transmission and flywheel swaps are the primary cause of improper clearance. Above all, pinion clearance must be measured when this is suspected. Listening to a few starts is not a substitute for taking a measurement. Shims can be added to GM pad-mount starters to increase pinion clearance.