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03-25-2015, 07:41 AM | #1 |
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What do you think of this Babbitt
This set of caps is ready to be cut to fit the crankshaft, I didn't pour them, but I know where it was done
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03-25-2015, 08:29 AM | #2 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Kurt: Looks like was peened with KRW tool ,not good enough.
if you are going to use them on your own car i would suggest peening them yourself. We have a special tip for our air hammer. We reduce air pressure and peen aross entire surface enusre a tight fit. www.jandm-machine.com |
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03-25-2015, 08:34 AM | #3 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
ID yet to be machined. Ok with that.
Is it my eye or the distance between the camera and cap or do those "ramps" at exit and entrance go right to the shell? Is this normal? Might these be thin at the flange/parting? A cast in ramp I might consider possible, but aren't the ramps normally machined as part of the grooving? And to leave SOMETHING at the cap and block mating surface? Joe K Edit: The J&M pix from the other thread is more what I might expect from the ramps. Smaller and leaving some metal at the match line.
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03-25-2015, 10:18 AM | #4 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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03-25-2015, 10:55 AM | #5 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Quote:
If the caps are poured right, they will not fail. So always run the oil wells to the steel, to get the most capacity for the oil wells. Herm. |
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03-25-2015, 11:07 AM | #6 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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03-25-2015, 11:19 AM | #7 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Model T and A babbitt that has failed. The first one is a Model A that was done buy a company that does several blocks and rods a year.
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03-25-2015, 02:39 PM | #8 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Yes, they are NOS,yes the rear cap was primed with air hammer, this is what you would get at the dealer when Babbitt was poured in the block -- new caps
I found some pictures and description of the process in some web reprints of American machinist, the Babbitt wasn't poured, it was done in an injection moulding machine |
03-25-2015, 02:46 PM | #9 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Quote:
Herm. |
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03-25-2015, 04:45 PM | #10 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Could you explain to a novice at machining why peening has to be done ?
Why is hot pouring not sufficient ? Does the babbit need to be compacted ? |
03-25-2015, 05:55 PM | #11 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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but now I can answer that. No. 1. 2. & 3. When babbitt is poured in a block warm, or cold, with out tinning, it will shrink away from the shell, nothing to grab on to. If it shrinks away, and it will, it will be loose in the block. So being that the babbitt is not up against the block shell, you have to give it a big push to where it should be, with peening. A good side effect of peening is as you say compacting the babbitt. You have to do this while very hot, or it will fracture the babbitt against the shell wall, and you would not see untill the bearing went bad, in a few short miles, as many do. So also if it isn't peened, the crank will do it for you when cold, and as of the many pictures on the form, you can see what happens. Now many people mistakenly beleave that the anchor holes in the block are to hold the babbitt from falling out, and it only works when you hold the block right side up. lol Not true, the anchor holes ar there to keep the babbitt insert from spinning, as a notch on a modern bearing. If the babbitt isn't peened, those anchor don't hold anything in, they just bust out on the main part of the bearing. Thanks Herm. |
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03-25-2015, 06:53 PM | #12 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Thanks for the explanation Herm, Pooch wasn't the only one wondering.
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03-25-2015, 08:02 PM | #13 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Same here, thank you Herm for posting and the pictures. Learning some good stuff!!!!
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03-25-2015, 08:08 PM | #14 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Thanks Herm, but you said one thing that I CAN answer.
The notch in an insert bearing is NOT to stop it from spinning. It is just used to locate the shell. Bearing crush is used to stop the spinning. |
03-25-2015, 09:07 PM | #15 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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The real name for the notch, is called a Locking Lip, funny they would use locking in a term like that. So, all bearings have to have crush, that keeps the bearing tight to the walls of the shell. All bearings have to have a way to lock the bearing from spinning. Before the Locking Lip, bearings were locked with shims that hung into the part lines, or they had brass pins the stuck out of the bearing shell and the brass, or steel bearing shell sliped over them and locked them in place. Many had Brass screws, could be one, or two, and that locked the bearing in. Some had Brass rivets in them, 4 to a 1/2 shell. You don't need a Locking Lip, to line two inserts up, any one can do that and get them even, but you always need some way to lock a bearing from spinning, and as you know, when a bearing goes bad, that won't even be enough help. Thanks Mr. Pooch Herm. |
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03-25-2015, 10:00 PM | #16 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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That engine looks very familiar. Still running great after several thousand miles. Thanks!!!
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03-25-2015, 10:05 PM | #17 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
' Now many people mistakenly beleave that the anchor holes in the block are to hold the babbitt from falling out, and it only works when you hold the block right side up. lol
Not true, the anchor holes ar there to keep the babbitt insert from spinning, as a notch on a modern bearing. If the babbitt isn't peened, those anchor don't hold anything in, they just bust out on the main part of the bearing.' If, say the holes in the block were not there, would a peened babbitt job actually be loose and fall out, if block was turned upside down ?. Does it only hold on at the hole spigots? Just interested, I always assumed without any knowledge the babbitt was adhered similar as a solder job would be, all along the backface and edges. |
03-25-2015, 10:56 PM | #18 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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I am glad you are making use of that nice original truck. It sure looks different then when you pulled it out of the old shed after 60 years. I wish I had it, and you had a better one. Take care, Herm. |
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03-25-2015, 11:19 PM | #19 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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Try taking a large chunk of cast iron and getting it hot enough to tin it. Good luck! that is exactly what it would take to make the babbitt adhere. As the babbitt cools rather quickly (as the alloy requires to maintain it's functional properties), it indeed shrinks away from the block. The babbitt needs to be peened to expand it back tight against the saddle. The poured babbitt does form cleats in the drilled pockets in the saddle but have little strength by themselves if the babbitt is loose in the saddle. As Herm inferred, something in the babbitt will break if the shell is left floating. The lug or cleat formed in the babbit COULD sheer but the area of the shell above it is typically a weaker link and apt to break away from the rest of the shell.
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03-25-2015, 11:27 PM | #20 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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Chevy 4 cylinders used solid babbitt inserts, in there front, and rear bearings. They were Jig poured, and had one single lug to keep them from spinning. Same thing as T's, A's, and B's. I will list some pictures, of the replacement bearings for the Chevy Fours. Thanks, Mr Pooch, Herm. |
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03-26-2015, 01:39 AM | #21 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Thank you all for explaining .
I can now peruse the babbitt topics with a little more knowledge and understanding. |
03-26-2015, 01:43 AM | #22 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
So has anyone tried boring an A block to take babbitt inserts like the chevy4's did? Sounds like a good compromise between poured bearings and inserts.
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03-26-2015, 02:19 AM | #23 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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03-26-2015, 02:22 AM | #24 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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Herm. |
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03-26-2015, 02:33 AM | #25 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Concerning the comments on the purpose of locking tabs on insert bearings, the new Chrysler V8's do not have locking tabs, they depend on crush fit to hold the insert in place, and I have seen them spin the inserts.
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03-26-2015, 09:21 AM | #26 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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03-26-2015, 02:48 PM | #27 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Yeh, seems a dumb move to delete the locating notches, ( I won't called them 'locking tabs'), the notches are to locate the inserts not only sideways, but to accurately locate the oil hole.
Any hamfister then could drop the inserts in anywhere and bolt it up. |
03-26-2015, 03:29 PM | #28 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
There is an advantage to babbitt shell inserts, no requirement for block heating and complex pouring when the complex pour can be done overseas and out in the middle of nowhere workshops can place the insert years later. (Overcomes the only problem i can find with poured babbitt)
Just when chrysler was having early engine deaths they deleted the locating notch? i can't understand why.
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03-26-2015, 03:55 PM | #29 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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03-26-2015, 05:49 PM | #30 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
when should Babbitt should peened? warm or cold? Make more than one pour, and peen after each pour? If you did not peen at all, wouldn't the Babbitt fall out line-boring?
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03-26-2015, 06:14 PM | #31 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Hey Herm,
Great info/instructions and pictures that you are passing on here, thanks for sharing ! You go to front of line for instant ID of nos Ford Caps ! You also posted pics of other caps that made me remember some 'caps' that I had put in a box half century ago. Here they are, main caps. Heavy and think made of bronze/brass (?). Quiz; What are they for/from ? Never mind the dirt on Babbitt faces , from sitting forever . Last edited by hardtimes; 03-26-2015 at 06:16 PM. Reason: .......... |
03-26-2015, 06:54 PM | #32 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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I would say 1929 to 1930-31 Chevys Six's? Herm. |
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03-26-2015, 07:30 PM | #33 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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Mr. Dart, Babbitt should be peened just as soon as you can remove the mold, with out breaking the babbitt lining. The colder the babbitt gets, the more of a chance you will fracture the babbitt, and the bad thing is you can't see it from the out side. I use a pneumatic hammer, it covers 100% of the area, a little at a time. I have seen loose babbitt that you could move in the block, but that is rare. You may not notice it while align Boring. Thanks, Herm. |
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03-26-2015, 07:54 PM | #34 |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
Hey Herm,
Wow, you are good at this ! Yup, 1930 chev six ! I had a Lost Angeles engine company ,i.e.- Egge Machine redo my short block and got these back with new in block. Back in about '60 threw them in a box of other '30 chev parts and remembered them when you commented here. BTW they have no 'tangs/locator' of sets . |
03-26-2015, 10:59 PM | #35 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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BTW they have no 'tangs/locator' of sets. "END QUOTE" No they don't Mr. Hardtimes, but what they do have is replaceable upper locating dowel pins in the block for the hole in the top shell to slide over, so the bearings don't spin. Herm. |
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03-27-2015, 01:53 PM | #36 | |
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Re: What do you think of this Babbitt
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Was told by a Dodge mechanic friend just last night that the 9 spd. automatic tranny they are boasting about is now showing signs of failure. Expensive failure. |
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