The Ford Barn

36 conv sedan · 01-09-2016, 03:40 PM

Hi Guys,

A friend of mine is offering me what he says is a 1931 Deluxe roadster. I am going to go and see it on monday, but it is about a 10 hour drive round trip, so I better know what to look for, and I have a few questions:

First of all, the car was very poorly restored, but using good labor. What I mean is they stripped the body and chassis and started restoring everything but did it with no information and therefore not in the correct colors or methods. I see it as a good base to do a proper restoration on it, taking into account that body and theoretically mechanical components are fine.

I have browsed the net trying to find the differences between a Deluxe and a Standard roadster and from what I understand and the pics I have, it does appear to be a 1931 deluxe, because of the cowl lights and the lower windshield (or so it appears to me) but I also understand the Deluxes had the top bows in chrome and wood, and this one would seem to have the standard roadster type of bows, so I am puzzled.

As for being a 1930 or 31 model, the grill is supposed to have the chrome emblem, and it shows the blue one, but Iguess that could have easily changed, and I can't see well enough in the pics to see if the grill shows the indented area supposed to be painted, as 1931 models are supposed to have with the chrome emblem. The stoneguard does not allow me to see it well.

Interior was also done without information and would need to be replaced, at least the door panels but probably most or all of it.
It does have the round speedometer, therefore if I understand correctly it must be a late 1930 or 1931 model.

Can any of you experts take a look and give me your opinion of it being a standard or a deluxe? 1930 or 1931?

Thanks,
victor

36 conv sedan · 01-09-2016, 03:44 PM

And here are the interior pics plus the engine pics.

Battery is terribly placed and the car was converted to 12 volts and has a radio installed!

Again, I see it as a potential restoration proyectt which would need to be restored to original configuration, but would love to start with a good base and not with one that has been converted to something else, so I'd love to find out wether it is a 1931 Deluxe, as he says and it appears, though the top bows puzzle me a lot...

Thanks,
victor

flatford39 · 01-09-2016, 03:51 PM

The shell is a 30. The aprons are 31. The horn is not correct. I can't tell from the pics about the windshield stanchions. You need to measure them when you get there. Deluxe I think are around 11" and standards are 13" if memory is correct.

Count the screws in the a pillar holding the door hinges on. Early 30's only had two screws in the bottom hinge and all 31's have three.

What's the title say???

Tom Wesenberg · 01-09-2016, 03:53 PM

Your water outlet on the head appears to be the shorter 28-9 style. The paint looks to be in great condition, and I like the colors, so if it was mine I'd just make sure everything is lubed and working correctly, and drive it.

2manycars · 01-09-2016, 04:02 PM

It looks to me like a late 30 standard roadster with cowl lamps added. The long splash aprons came into use in late 30. It has been converted to 12 volts with the battery on the firewall, and an alternator. The rear bumper spreader bar looks home made.
Are the fenders steel or fiberglass? Any body filler in the body? It looks shiny, but odd colors and even the steering wheel is painted. The standard top irons should have a black top, not tan. It has a tillotson carburetor.

emf · 01-09-2016, 04:05 PM

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You also have a Model B engine, I think a plus... Nice looking car...

Frank

36 conv sedan · 01-09-2016, 04:06 PM

flatford39:

Title says 1931, and the three screws on the lower hinge would appear to prove it. Thanks for the tip! I amplified the pic and it seems to have them.

Sorry for my lack of english... I am from Mexico... By aprons you mean the top bows? Are they different between a 1930 deluxe and a 1931 deluxe?

36 conv sedan · 01-09-2016, 04:17 PM

It does look nice, and paint is great, on an all steel body, but I would love to have it back to original, probably in black and blue, and I would not like to have a hard time finding parts, so I am going for it only if it is mostly complete. I am really concerned about the windshield and top, if they are correct for a Deluxe or not. If they are, then the car must be a 1931 with the wrong grill, as I read all the 1930 Deluxe models had the fender spares, which this car does not have.

So far, from what I read, it is either a later 1930 or 1931 model (the 3 screws in the lower hinge, longer aprons, and round speedometer)

The B motor is something I am not looking forward to. how to you tell them appart from a correct A motor?

Thanks!
Victor

mike657894 · 01-09-2016, 04:24 PM

hide the battery back under the floor boards. paint the fenders black and drive it.

wrndln · 01-09-2016, 04:27 PM

A model B motor has a fuel pump port on the lower, front right side of the engine . In your 4th picture, you can see it is blocked off with a plate and 2 bolts. Even though the car is definitely not restored with original colors and has some extra "goodies" on it and a number of non-original items, it doesn't look too bad. I agree that if the fenders and splash aprons were painted black, like they should be, the car would look a lot better. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but model A's in my opinion, should have black fenders on them. Even though the roadster is "dolled up" it looks decent. It would take some effort to make the car look like it was originally made, but if you are not a purest, doing a few things, or doing nothing, would be an option and just driving it.
Rusty Nelson

western77 · 01-09-2016, 04:40 PM

The B has a small plate with 2bolts holding it to the block just above the oil pan towards the front of the engine carb side. It also has no external oil return from the valve chamber. The valve cover is taller. JB

Barry B./ Ma. · 01-09-2016, 04:46 PM

Oh boy, that would be a good part time job making everything correct. It appears to be a 31 standard roadster. The engine has the block off plate where the fuel pump sits on the Model B (right side engine view). I would tend to leave the paint alone other than painting the fenders and splash aprons black. The phillips head screws should be replaced with straight slotted screws. Interior looks nice as is but the seats and inner panels would be black on a std. roadster.

Patrick L. · 01-09-2016, 05:03 PM

About the only way I can tell the years apart are the lower 3 screw hinges and the windshield height .
Anything can be changed and its hard to tell what has been done over the years. But, those 2 things probably tend to stay with the vehicle.
The windshield height is 15" on Std and 13" on Deluxe. But, that too can be changed quite easily.
The Std are rare, more Deluxe were made. Plus, many Stds were 'Deluxed'.

mike657894 · 01-09-2016, 05:31 PM

From looking at all the roadsters online. You are right about the wood bows. wood being prone to rot and other problems it was probably replaced with a metal reproduction when it was restored.

hardtimes · 01-09-2016, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

And here are the interior pics plus the engine pics.

Battery is terribly placed and the car was converted to 12 volts and has a radio installed!

Again, I see it as a potential restoration proyectt which would need to be restored to original configuration, but would love to start with a good base and not with one that has been converted to something else, so I'd love to find out wether it is a 1931 Deluxe, as he says and it appears, though the top bows puzzle me a lot...

Thanks,
victor

Hey Victor,
Wow, what a mix of parts

! It looks great to me and I wouldn't change a thing, at least right away

!
Yeah, most obvious is the standard top IRONS.
The rest is a (mis) mixed/match.
I look at this and wonder where the heck did they get all those different year parts from to put together...must have been work

!
I like the '32 B engine ! What transmission does this car have ?
Seems to me, from your statements, that you have a good idea what has gone on here ?

BTW..I sure would have liked to have all of those nifty parts to start off with , when starting with my '30 'deluxe' roadster. This one LOOKS a heck of lot better than mine ..lol

Does anyone have a guess/clue what those two silver 'caps' are ...one near breather cap, and one under corner of battery box ??

Stretch Cab · 01-09-2016, 07:12 PM

I used to live near the DF as I see the car is from. If you buy the car it might be good to have the car delivered to the outside of the city as the Federal Police do not like private people towing anything in the city. I found this out the very hard way!

Also, might give an idea of the price as there may be better deals available out of some of the border states.

Charlie Stephens · 01-09-2016, 10:13 PM

Is the title clean? The serial number for the car is stamped into the top of the frame but it is under the front of the body where it cannot be seen without lifting the body. Most cars were registered either by the engine number or a tag attached by the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). Since the engine is a Model B there is no number on the block unless someone stamped it there (beginning in 1932 the blocks were not numbered). Stamping a number into the side of the block (or anywhere else) will get you in trouble in most states). Does the number on the title match something on the car? If the paperwork doesn't match the number on the car it might be more trouble than it is worth.

Charlie Stephens

36 conv sedan · 01-09-2016, 10:14 PM

Thank you all for your input.

I am not sure we are talking about a real salad... or a lot of mixed components, that is, other than the engine and top bows.

If I am right, from your comments, it is a late 1930 or 1931 model (the 3 screws in the lower hinge, longer aprons, and round speedometer), and due to the apparent windshield height (which I need to measure next week) it could very well be a Deluxe from origin, in which the incorrect bows may have been placed, same as a 1930 grill and of course, the engine and hydraulic brakes... which may be not that rare in a model A. True, it is far off from a good original, which would be a dream to own, but I guess that finding an engine from an A is not that difficult (in fact, a friend down here who has a couple of A's is telling me he has a couple of extra engines and he likes the B engine, so maybe I can talk him into selling me an engine already done (he is a great mechanic, expert on T's and A's) or perhaps giving my B engine as a part trade.

I do not know what has gone into the car but I know the owner who is a good friend of mine and who has his own shop and does things well done in the sense of good labor but always according to his own tastes which as you see difer from original, so I am pretty sure the body will be fine, but again, it would be a good basis for me.

If I can get a correct A engine from my friend, and find a set of good or reproduction top irons for the Deluxe, I believe I would have the correct components to make it look again like a 1931 Deluxe... or wouldn't I?

I could paint fender and aprons black and use it as is for a good while, and eventually restore it in it's correct colors.

The car is in Cuernavaca, and I live in Queretaro, so I do have to go through the DF (Mexico city), but no doubt I would hire a plataform to do the move. It is a 5 or 6 hour trip, considering little traffic in the big city.

Thanks again for all the help,
victor

36 conv sedan · 01-09-2016, 10:17 PM

Charlie:

Our posts crossed. Thanks for the explanation on block numbers.

I have no idea how the car is titled to far... and my friend is not computer-friendly, so I will have to take a look at the car next monday morning in Cuernavaca (a city 1.5 hours from Mexico city) and hopefully see the papers back in Mexico city in the afternoon. If things match, they I could go ahead and get it.

If they don't, as you say, it would be trouble, more than it is worth, but I would still like to explore the possibility of getting it.

Question: How can I tell a 1931 model A ford engine from an earlier one? Do have have stamped numbers? I am hoping my friend might have a 1931 engine among the two he has...

thanks,
victor

36 conv sedan · 01-09-2016, 10:27 PM

Oh, and about price...

My friend is asking $16,000, which is not cheap, but again, there are not many available around down here, and buying one in the US and getting it down here would cost me 75% over the cost of the car (duties and taxes plus transport). I don’t know for how much you could get an equivalent condition car (working, to be restored) in the US, but then adding those costs would render it forbiddingly expensive compared to their market value.

Victor

George Miller · 01-09-2016, 10:41 PM

Looks like a late 30 STD to me also.

flatford39 · 01-10-2016, 12:36 AM

Cuernavaca???? Really...Is Los Mananitas still there??? It's worth the ten hour drive just to go to Cuernavaca.

I spent some time there in the early 80's and really fell in love with that city.

36 conv sedan · 01-10-2016, 12:40 AM

Yes, Las Mañanitas is still there...

Did you ever visit Barabara Hutton's magnificent oriental style home, Sumiya? It is now a 5 star hotel also. Camino Real. Great place.

In fact the car is just behind it, 5 mintutes away.

Charlie Stephens · 01-10-2016, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

Charlie:

Our posts crossed. Thanks for the explanation on block numbers.

I have no idea how the car is titled to far... and my friend is not computer-friendly, so I will have to take a look at the car next monday morning in Cuernavaca (a city 1.5 hours from Mexico city) and hopefully see the papers back in Mexico city in the afternoon. If things match, they I could go ahead and get it.

If they don't, as you say, it would be trouble, more than it is worth, but I would still like to explore the possibility of getting it.

Question: How can I tell a 1931 model A ford engine from an earlier one? Do have have stamped numbers? I am hoping my friend might have a 1931 engine among the two he has...

thanks,
victor

Go here for a list of the serial numbers by month: http://mafca.com/data_eng_production.html The judging standards say to allow up to 3 months for the engine to be installed in the car (if produced in the United States) so any serial number after October 1930 could be in a 1931 vehicle. You should get a copy of the judging standards from the two national clubs (they got together to write it). See: https://mafca.com/cart/index.php?productID=115

Charlie Stephens

Mike V. Florida · 01-10-2016, 01:32 AM

Is it a good price for a roadster in Mexico?
Do deluxes go for much more money then standard?
Do you have affordable access to the parts to make it all one year, 1931?

I ask these questions because if the car in good condition and for a good, fair price, buy it.

Buy it, get it running well, stopping well, drive it often to learn about the workings of a Model A.

Don't worry about the paint, don't worry about the engine, don't worry about the other things that are not "factory".

After enjoying it for a while then, and only then, start to replace things.

The above it my opinion.

Roadster Rich · 01-10-2016, 09:38 AM

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From what I can see the top bows are a standard and just as they should be. Comparing to mine they look proportionally correct, so I would bet your windshield stantions are the taller ones for a standard. I would not want to make those changes to get to a smaller height (not so easy getting in and out of and worse driving sight lines). I don't see any reason why you could not make this correct as a standard (black top bow metal color) with just the added cowl lights. I think this was added to many back when they were purchased. I think you would wish you hadn't dropped the roof height it you do that.

modelAtony · 01-10-2016, 11:17 AM

Victor, If the car runs and drives as good as it looks , I think you have a great deal for 16,000. I would only change the battery away from firewall and put it back under floorboard. The heck with changing the paint, it looks like a fine car. Fill it with gas a drive the wheels off of it. PONCHO would have loved to have this car. Hope you enjoy the nice car , have fun modelAtony, tony white Lafayette, LA

Steve Plucker · 01-10-2016, 01:10 PM

You also might want to start with copies of the MARC/MAFCA Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards (don't let the "Judging Standards" scare you) and a copy of the Model A Ford Service Bulletins.

Pluck

36 conv sedan · 01-10-2016, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster Rich

From what I can see the top bows are a standard and just as they should be. Comparing to mine they look proportionally correct, so I would bet your windshield stantions are the taller ones for a standard. ...

Don't get me wrong... if the car was a Standard, I would like to take it back to Standard form. I am just trying to find out how to tell them appart, to understand what each model was, so I can figure out how restore it.

Yes... the car is good as it is and I can use it that way and enjoy it a lot... and I will, for a time, but eventually I would like to take it back to original.

One question: if the Standards had no cowl lights, do they have parking lights combined with the headlights? Were the headlights different from standard and Deluxe?

Or how do you turn on those cowl lights on the Deluxe?

Thanks!
victor

Steve Plucker · 01-10-2016, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

Don't get me wrong... if the car was a Standard, I would like to take it back to Standard form. I am just trying to find out how to tell them appart, to understand what each model was, so I can figure out how restore it.

Yes... the car is good as it is and I can use it that way and enjoy it a lot... and I will, for a time, but eventually I would like to take it back to original.

One question: if the Standards had no cowl lights, do they have parking lights combined with the headlights? Were the headlights different from standard and Deluxe?

Or how do you turn on those cowl lights on the Deluxe?

Thanks!
victor

If the current owner restored the original cowl light set up, then there should be a special switch within the car under the gastank near the steering column. It is explained in the Standards and the Bulletins as described above.

And yes, if a car had no cowl lights, they did have parking lights within the headlamps.

Pluck

36 conv sedan · 01-10-2016, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

,,,

And yes, if a car had no cowl lights, they did have parking lights within the headlamps.

Pluck

Pluck: Thanks!

And if the car had cowl lamps, would they have used parking lights also in the headlights? In other words, were the headlights identical from Standard to Deluxe?

pgerhardt · 01-10-2016, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by western77

The B has a small plate with 2bolts holding it to the block just above the oil pan towards the front of the engine carb side. It also has no external oil return from the valve chamber. The valve cover is taller. JB

If the block is model B, I don't think the head is. I thought model B heads used a different water pump with three mounting studs and an integrated water outlet. It looks to me like it was put together with what ever was available at the time. So be ready for more surprises.

Binger · 01-10-2016, 05:46 PM

Seeing the B block makes you wonder what trans is behind it. There may be lots of surprises. if its an A head I wonder if it is high compression and possibly aluminum. Take a magnet and check! Wonder if it has the counter balanced crank in it too. Also it looks like it has hydraulic brakes on it too. I can see a brake hose in one of the pictures. That would explain the battery box on the fire wall.
The car looks like a great driver and I would leave it alone and enjoy it as is. Would be a major restoration to bring it up to the judging standards. Might be more fun just to drive it.

Tom Wesenberg · 01-10-2016, 06:12 PM

If your car had factory cowl lights, then the headlamp reflectors would be different, and they would NOT have the parking lights in them. The headlamp switch turns on the parking lights, or cowl lights if so equiped, but never when the headlamps are on.

mshmodela · 01-10-2016, 07:19 PM

Interesting paint choice, clearly not original but nonetheless tastefully done.

henry's 31 · 01-10-2016, 08:25 PM

Hi Victor:

Your English seems fine. Do not worry about parts. You can get almost everything from the different vendors. I would drive it at first and then after a while restore it if that is what you want. If you want to go original purchase the Judging standards book. To work on the car purchase Andrews books. You can do a lot of the work yourself. Also join a local club if available. Welcome to the hobby!

36 conv sedan · 01-10-2016, 11:04 PM

Thank you all! I already commited to visit tomorrow. I will report on findings.

A local friend told me something about later 1931 models having an indented firewall and a gas shutter valve on the engine side, while earlier ones with a flat firewall had the gas shutter valve inside the car... can anybody elaborate on this?

Mike V. Florida · 01-11-2016, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

Thank you all! I already commited to visit tomorrow. I will report on findings.

A local friend told me something about later 1931 models having an indented firewall and a gas shutter valve on the engine side, while earlier ones with a flat firewall had the gas shutter valve inside the car... can anybody elaborate on this?

Yes your friend is correct about the indented firewall. That would have been a real easy way to tell the 1930 from a 1931. The indented firewall came out in April 1931. These cars had a different gas tank, fuel line, shut off, fuel filter, and carburetor.

As suggested, the first books to buy are the owners manual to see how ford wanted things to work and if they don't work that way you know you have a problem. Since you are planning to pick a "proper" year and model, the Restoration Guidelines. To repair the car, I would get he Les Andrews book and create a shortcut on your computer to this forum.

36 conv sedan · 01-11-2016, 01:10 AM

Rechecking on things, and comparing to the pictures of the car, I guess it is pretty safe to assume it is a 1931 model, because of the 3 screws in the lower door hinge, round speedometer and the one piece running board splash shield. I am not sure if it has the indented firewall or not, but I will check tomorrow.

Also, a Standard, because of the top bows with apparent correct style and geometry for that model.

So, I believe it is fairly safe to call it a 1931 Standard roadster.

36 conv sedan · 01-11-2016, 01:11 AM

What can I check on transmission? More than once, I read the comment of worries about the type of transmission it may have...

Can any of you give me clues as to what do I need to look for?

Thanks,
victor

Binger · 01-11-2016, 08:30 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about the transmission. It is probably not model A. However, A transmissions can be set up on B engines easily. Could be a B transmission or even a later V8. The bell housing and flywheel housings are different between As and Bs. Sorry I don't have any pictures of the differences.
I am curious about the hydraulic brake set up. Someone built the car into a nice driver with some upgrades. Apart from the hard core model A guys nobody will ever know its not completely stock.

Charlie Stephens · 01-11-2016, 12:46 PM

It is nice to have good brakes (understatement). Having said that take some pictures of the brake system, lines, master cylinder mount, linkage. Many people trying to improve the brakes by adding hydraulics end up with a system that is less safe than the original mechanicals. Either system is good but there are more chances of messing up the hydraulics since they require creativity where the mechanicals only requiring restoring or replacing parts.

Charlie Stephens

Charlie Stephens · 01-11-2016, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

What can I check on transmission? More than once, I read the comment of worries about the type of transmission it may have...

Can any of you give me clues as to what do I need to look for?

Thanks,
victor

Victor, get several close up pictures of the transmission and tower for posting. The original had a separate transmission box with a bell housing bolted onto the front. The bell housing had a shaft coming out of the side for the brake and clutch pedals. This shaft is the clue to telling that it is a Model A transmission.

Charlire Stephens

mot · 01-11-2016, 08:21 PM

dont be too quick to get rid of the B engine
many of them have counterbalanced cranks,which make for smoother running
and they go for a lot more than a model A motor if they are in good shape
the headlamp bar is also incorrect
it should have a nice curve the whole length
not flat on the top side
tom

36 conv sedan · 01-12-2016, 12:59 AM

I went today to see the car and ended up buying it. I had very little time as my friend was in a sort of hurry (he took his wife with him and they were going to drive to Mexico city) so I really did not get under it to photograph it, but just took a good look from the outside and inside. Really, great workmanship with a few exceptions, but not to Ford A original standards unfortunately.

The engine sounds great and started with ease after about of 3 months sitting! My friend had it restored some time ago. We only took a very small ride in it but everything seems fine, no growls or anything strange from the transmission. My friend really drove it very little since he finished it but the car apparently works fine and he says it does not overheat.

I am exhausted and with a headache after a very long day but I will post tomorrow some other pics and ask other doubts…. For now, the windshield and top…

I still think it is is a 1931 model (3 screws in the lower door hinge, round speedometer and the one piece running board splash shield), and probably a Deluxe, as the windshield stands at 13”… though the convertible top bows seem to be the “standard” style, so this is still a mistery for me. Here are some pics of the windshield in which you will see I measured from the top of the windshield down at the stanchion… any opinions?

36 conv sedan · 01-12-2016, 01:07 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mot

dont be too quick to get rid of the B engine
many of them have counterbalanced cranks,which make for smoother running
and they go for a lot more than a model A motor if they are in good shape
the headlamp bar is also incorrect
it should have a nice curve the whole length
not flat on the top side
tom

Tom:

Thanks! After hearing the engine today and seeing how it starts, I will definately not be messing with it. I am going to follow the advice I have been getting at the forum: the car will stay as it is and I will enjoy it as is... at least for a good while. I will gradually replace the incorrect parts (thanks for pointing out the headlight bar) and eventually restore it, and only then I will try to find a suitable (meaning in the number range) engine.

Thanks!
Victor

Barry B./ Ma. · 01-12-2016, 07:47 AM

Congratulations on your purchase. Many years of happy motoring ahead. I think the first thing I would do is to add the glass windwings to the windshield posts. Looks like they used a standard roadster top to the deluxe windshield posts which is no big deal and it was only a matter of attaching the rear of the top in the right position for the assembly to align with the windshield posts, I would leave things as they are. I don't see any body sockets for (side window) side curtains but I never used the side curtains on mine and it is OK as long as you don't drive it in the rain.

36 conv sedan · 01-12-2016, 10:22 AM

Barry:

Thanks! Yes, I look forward to enjoying the little car a lot.

I will look into adding wind wings... they do look nice. Also the body sockets, but that will be for the looks only, as I don't plan on even buying the side windows/curtains.

Victor

Bob C · 01-12-2016, 12:15 PM

According to Bratton's catalog the standard windshield frame is 15 1/4"
at the end and the deluxe is 13 1/2".

Bob

36 conv sedan · 01-12-2016, 01:55 PM

Thank you Bob! What it has now is the Deluxe windshield, no doubt about it. Stanchions look correct and everything in windshield area looks fine, with the exception of the wiper, which I understand should not be manual but electric, so I need to find one.

I will be posting pics of the different areas. I will appreciate whatever anybody can tell me about wrong parts, to start looking for the correct ones... and if any of you has any extra parts, please let me know.

Thanks,
victor

36 conv sedan · 01-12-2016, 01:59 PM

As for the car's registration, I have an invoice dated 1967 that mentions engine number A3908943. Would this number help date the car? Of course there is the possibility that it was not the original engine by then...

The same paper notes a new engine number, which is what is stamped currently on the B engine, listed as A144654

jthomas6 · 01-12-2016, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

As for the car's registration, I have an invoice dated 1967 that mentions engine number A3908943. Would this number help date the car? Of course there is the possibility that it was not the original engine by then...

The same paper notes a new engine number, which is what is stamped currently on the B engine, listed as A144654

Engine number A3908943 = 09/08/30
Engine number A144654 = 05/21/28

Joe

Charlie Stephens · 01-12-2016, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthomas6

Engine number A3908943 = 09/08/30
Engine number A144654 = 05/21/28

Joe

Also remember that Model B engines were not stamped from the factory. The serial number for the Model B 4 cylinder was stamped into a pad on the flywheel housing.

Charlie Stephens

36 conv sedan · 01-12-2016, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthomas6

Engine number A3908943 = 09/08/30
Engine number A144654 = 05/21/28

Joe

Thanks!

So, September 1930 for the engine, and taking into consideration that an engine up to 3 months in advance is acceptable, I guess we are talking about an early 1931 model, assembled perhaps in late 1930.

I don't know at what date technically start to be a 1931 model, but in any case, it appears to be an early 1931 model. Would that make the 1930 style grill correct? I understand the blue emblem was used up to a few months in 1931... lot's of doubts...

And on the engine... yes! Apparently this is a B unit which was stamped with some earlier number... who knows why...

Farrell In Vancouver · 01-12-2016, 03:48 PM

Was this car not equipped with a vacuum wiper? I thought only 28-29 closed cars had the electric wipers.

Bob C · 01-12-2016, 03:59 PM

You may want to check out Marco's roadster for what a correct car looks like.
http://www.abarnyard.com/roadster/roadster.shtml

Bob

Barry B./ Ma. · 01-12-2016, 04:47 PM

Victor, my late 30 standard roadster had the one piece splash aprons, the round speedometer and had cowl lights but they were added after and I used them for directionals (with white bulbs of course). I sold the car last year but the engine no. indicated it was made in July 1930. If you find a vacuum wiper the rubber hose runs through a hole in the drivers side stanchion and clips on the windshield uprights. Standards had painted windshield frames and chrome uprights. Sounds like a fun project that you can drive while updating.I would stamp the block with the correct number A390xxxx or a thin plate in that location on the block, check what the registration says for a VIN. The A390xxx number should appear on the frame but the cowl would have to be lifted to see it. During production of the Model A the engines were stamped at the factory , shipped to the assembly branches and that number was stamped on the frame.

36 conv sedan · 01-12-2016, 08:15 PM

Marco's roadster is a great reference, thanks!

I will of course get the Judging guidelines that some of you have mentioned.

Mexico is very complex regarding car's paperworks... I will have to see if I can get it back to registration with the "original" number, A390xxxx, and if possible, then I will look at restamping the engine.

So Barry, one piece splash aprons and round speedometer were also used from late 1930. Any ideas of when the 1931 grill was started to be used? Would that be already for 1931 model year cars?

Thanks,
victor

36 conv sedan · 01-12-2016, 10:07 PM

I went over a good part of Marco's page... Wow! The amount of information in it and pictures is incredible. Thanks again for the link.

What about my firewall... is this what is called the "indented" firewall or not? i ask because I understand helps date the car also.

Bob C · 01-12-2016, 10:21 PM

Can't see very well but I don't think it is an indented firewall.
The picture below is an indented firewall.

Bob

Barry B./ Ma. · 01-13-2016, 08:03 AM

[QUOTE=36 conv sedan;1222758]Marco's roadster is a great reference, thanks!

I will of course get the Judging guidelines that some of you have mentioned.

Mexico is very complex regarding car's paperworks... I will have to see if I can get it back to registration with the "original" number, A390xxxx, and if possible, then I will look at restamping the engine.

So Barry, one piece splash aprons and round speedometer were also used from late 1930. Any ideas of when the 1931 grill was started to be used? Would that be already for 1931 model year cars?

Thanks,
victor

Victor,
I would assume the 31 shell was used starting with the release of the 1931 models in Janurary. I had an early 31 town sedan that had a 1930 shell on it but I traded it for a 1931 just to make the car right. I did hear the left over 1930 steel shells were used on the early 31 pickup trucks but don't know this as fact.
Barry B./ Ma.

36 conv sedan · 01-13-2016, 10:58 AM

Mine clearly shows no inverted teardrop shape in the fuel filter area... so I guess it is not an indented firewall car. Up to now, I did not know what was the 'indented' part. I though it meant the area behind the engine not being flat. Thanks!

36 conv sedan · 01-13-2016, 07:21 PM

I found an interesting link that explains the indented firewall, which according to the page was: " phased into factory production starting in April 1931 and reached 100% production use in May 1931 according to a factory service bulletin. However, the indented firewall was only one part of a much larger design change that encompassed replacing the gasoline tank in all Model A & AA production. If you have the Ford Service Bulletin for May 1931, page 560, refer to it while you read this article."

This is the page: http://www.ahooga.com/notebook/howto/3/howto3.shtml

So, I guess with the elements that many of you gave me, it is pretty safe to call the car an early 1931 model, based on the engine being assembled in september 30 and with the 1931 features like the one piece splash shields, the circular speedometer and the 3 screws in the hinges.

The mistery is still the top which apparently uses standard irons, but shows the Deluxe windshield height and top proportions.

My only doubt is wether I should leave the 1930 grill or start looking for a 1931 grill, so the car would be more correct. Any ideas?

thanks!
Victor

Charlie Stephens · 01-14-2016, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

I found an interesting link that explains the indented firewall, which according to the page was: " phased into factory production starting in April 1931 and reached 100% production use in May 1931 according to a factory service bulletin. However, the indented firewall was only one part of a much larger design change that encompassed replacing the gasoline tank in all Model A & AA production. If you have the Ford Service Bulletin for May 1931, page 560, refer to it while you read this article."

This is the page: http://www.ahooga.com/notebook/howto/3/howto3.shtml

So, I guess with the elements that many of you gave me, it is pretty safe to call the car an early 1931 model, based on the engine being assembled in september 30 and with the 1931 features like the one piece splash shields, the circular speedometer and the 3 screws in the hinges.

The mistery is still the top which apparently uses standard irons, but shows the Deluxe windshield height and top proportions.

My only doubt is wether I should leave the 1930 grill or start looking for a 1931 grill, so the car would be more correct. Any ideas?

thanks!
Victor

Victor,

There is another question that I can't answer. Did Ford build Model A's in Mexico? Did Model A's in Mexico come from a plant in South America? Most of the answers on this board refer to US domestic production. Your radiator shell could very well be correct for a car produced in Mexico.

Charlie Stephens

Barry B./ Ma. · 01-14-2016, 08:01 AM

Charlie, according to an old used car book I have, Victors engine number was assigned to the Somerville Ma. assembly plant, that's if my book is right and that number represents his original engine.(Somerville engine numbers for 1931 were 3903993 thru 3943814). As I said before I would look for a 31 radiator shell and put that on. On second thought if that engine is the original and date of building the engine is 9-08-30 the car could have been a late 30, depending on the final assembly lag time.

36 conv sedan · 01-14-2016, 02:59 PM

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Yes, Ford was established here in 1925 and has been building cars in Mexico since 1930, from what I can find in the net. But my car came from the USA as there is a reference in one of the papers I got stated that it was imported in 1951...

So, it is a US model most probably assembled in Sommerville, as Barry says.

I understand I am in a bit of a dilema. If we go by the round speedometer, 3 screw bottom hinge and one piece splash shield, I guess it would be safe calling it a 1931 model, which adding the 13" windshield would proove the car as a 1931 Deluxe roadster.

If we take the September engine date, and considering it could have been used up to 3 months later (I read that somewhere, but don't recall where) then it could be a late 1930... in which case I don't know if the 3 points mentioned above were already in use or not... and in that case, with no sidemounts, it would be not a Deluxe but a regular roadster... which of course brings me back to square one in the sense of not knowing if the car was or not a Deluxe, as my main doubt still is... the top bows, which show the correct proportion to the windshield and do not seem to have been modified.

Windshield does look ok in my opinion (but I am attaching pics) and the stanchions appear original, with rubber plugs covering threaded holes (I assume for wind wings) and a sort of flat spot which i guess was intended for the mirror... which my car does not have, and you will see in the pics my friend found some sort of rotating convex small mirrors that would appear to work great without altering anything as they attach themselves to the glass with no glue or anything... rubber ventose, I guess it would be called).

So, I guess I am more comfortable calling it a 1931 Deluxe early model, with already the 1931 features with the exception of the grill, which I can try to locate and change, and the correct top bows, which I suppose I can find some day (though it is not a big priority at this time). I think those things would render it like a 'correct' 1931 model... but I am not sure how this particular car really came.

I guess the clue that would let us know exactly would be to know when were the 1931 modifications (grill, one piece splash shield, round speedometer and 3 screw lower hinge). Was that starting new year, January 1931 or starting model year in late 1930.

Bob C · 01-14-2016, 06:29 PM

The windshield stanchions do not look original, they almost look like they are
aluminum. On the left side one there is no hole for the mirror.

Bob

36 conv sedan · 01-16-2016, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

The windshield stanchions do not look original, they almost look like they are
aluminum. On the left side one there is no hole for the mirror.

Bob

Wow! That is a hard blow. I also thought they were aluminum or some other softer metal. I will have to check on that and report, hopefully tomorrow.

Were originals supposed to be steel?

Thanks!
Victor

36 conv sedan · 01-16-2016, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forever4

How do you know your engine number is original? Likely it isn't, but if it is the same as the frame number, then maybe a 1930 standard

I don't know for sure, but I got the number from the papers I have with the car, which are not from the 30's but from the 60's. One of them makes reference to the car being imported in 1951, so at least since that time it must have had the Sept 1930 number. And since it coincides closely to what the car apparently is (a late 1930 or early 1931, prior to the indented firewall) I am just assuing it must be correct.

I understand the chassis number is under the body... right? Is that on the left side, at any particular location? I hope it can be accesible someway... if not, I guess that when I repaint the car, probably in a few years, I will remove the body and check well on that...

thanks!
Victor

Barry B./ Ma. · 01-16-2016, 06:09 PM

Yes, the number should be on top of the frame under the left side of the cowl, near the rear engine mount so you would have to lift the body up a few inches to see it and don't be surprised if it's not legible due to corrosion. The stanchions should be stainless steel and not aluminum. I bought mine from Snyders and they fit well.

Binger · 01-18-2016, 05:54 PM

It seems that a lot of ppl here are forgetting that the engine is not an A its a B. So the motor number will not be any help to identifying the standard/deluxe question. I bet it was restamped to match the title. Looking at the pics pretty closely it looks like it has an A transmission on a B motor. in the picture of the carb you cannot see the transmission flange on the oil pan like a B motor would. has the car been converted over to 12 volts? I see a ballast resister on the fire wall. Still curious about the Juice brakes and what was done to convert it over. Keep us posted!

36 conv sedan · 01-18-2016, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry B./ Ma.

The stanchions should be stainless steel and not aluminum. I bought mine from Snyders and they fit well.

Ouch... mine do not appear to be stainless, but aluminum... not sure about that, but they are marked where the top butterfly screws attached, therefore it is not a very strong metal... aluminum, I guess. Good to know that Snyders has replacements!

Thank you Barry... someday I will check on that number.

36 conv sedan · 01-18-2016, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binger

It seems that a lot of ppl here are forgetting that the engine is not an A its a B. So the motor number will not be any help to identifying the standard/deluxe question. I bet it was restamped to match the title. Looking at the pics pretty closely it looks like it has an A transmission on a B motor. in the picture of the carb you cannot see the transmission flange on the oil pan like a B motor would. has the car been converted over to 12 volts? I see a ballast resister on the fire wall. Still curious about the Juice brakes and what was done to convert it over. Keep us posted!

Yes, I am sure the B engine was restamped and by the way with a very old number, who knows why... no clue. And yes, it was terribly converted to 12 volts, with the battery on the engine compartment. I really want to remove that soon and get it where it should be (I guess under the seat's floor, but haven't checked yet), and eventually once I get a generator and voltage regulator, convert it back to 6 volts.

Anyhow...

I took the car out on it's first spin yesterday. I was very gladly surprised. I had only driven one model A before, a great pickup owned by a close friend. Mine moves much more agile. That could be the 10 additional HP (or 25% increase!), but it also moves great. I don't know if transmission was changed or not, but will try to take and post pics soon. I remember driving my friend's A at around 40 mph, and not comfortable with more... and mine yesterday I drove it at around 45 mph like it was nothing... and for a time I was doing 50 and there was still room to go more... so perhaps it was changed... I will report with pics.

Thanks!
Victor

Keith True · 01-18-2016, 08:43 PM

Just a couple of things to add to everything.I saw you mention the round speedo a couple of times,that is not just a 31 feature.It came into use around June of 1930.I have two June of 30 cars with the round speedos.Also,the side mount spare on the deluxe cars were dropped for 31.Both the deluxe and standard had rear mounted spares in 31.I don't have the judging standards in front of me,but that info is in there.Real handy book to have.A 31 standard would be a rare bird to have,I believe around 6000 were made,and everybody that got their hands on them in the 60's and 70's deluxified them,so that cut down the number of survivors even more.

36 conv sedan · 01-20-2016, 01:43 PM

Thanks for pointing out the round speedometer being available earlier. What about the 3 screws for the lower hinge or the one piece splash shield? I guess I will be able to check in detail once I get the books, which I ordered already.

I don't know if my car was probably deluxified or not... if the windshield posts are aluminum (I have to check) then it could be, as there is also the issue of the top irons in Standard style. It does surprise me that the car's height with roof seems to be in the correct proportions of the Deluxe roadster, but the top irons are the Standard style, and they don't seem cut or anything.

The car will remain as is for now, I guess for a good number of years, and when restored, it will probably be easier to source the top irons of the Deluxe instead of the stanchions and windshield of the Standard car... so I will probably restore it as a Deluxe. I will keep my eyes (and mind) open for the parts needed to correct it, once I restore it.

Thanks!

Charlie Stephens · 01-20-2016, 02:41 PM

If you go to a car show in the US and there are 10 deluxe roadsters and one standard you will find 10 people crowded around the standard and a couple around the deluxe. Sometimes it pays to be different. That plus it is cheaper to restore a standard (that is why they sold for less).

Charlie Stephens

36 conv sedan · 01-20-2016, 07:11 PM

Charlie, thanks! Yes, I understand that point, but I don't want to alter the car much. So far, from what I can see, there is no real proof that the car was a Standard or a Deluxe... in one case I need to correct one thing, top irons, and in the other, stanchions (probably) and windshield). I prefer the looks of the Deluxe, as rare as the Standard is, so if I have to opt for one of the other, I think it will be the Deluxe. Time will tell. As I have mentioned, I don't plan on doing much to it, at least as for the looks of it.

Today my mechanic is here and we already removed the radio, speakers, antenna, extra horn, check on timing... and I can report on findings and ask more doubts... in my next post.

Thanks again!
victor

36 conv sedan · 01-20-2016, 07:40 PM

Here is a pic of the transmission with the adapted brake cylinder on the way, and also one of the silencer, which is larger on one end than the other, sort of a cone...

Do they look like what is supposed to have?

Bob C · 01-20-2016, 07:55 PM

Yes muffler and transmission are correct. The master cylinder is
mounted where the battery should be.

Bob

36 conv sedan · 01-20-2016, 07:56 PM

And here is my distributor. I am hoping it is also a wrong cap the one it has, but I prefer to ask... does it look like the correct distributor for a model B or model A?

36 conv sedan · 01-20-2016, 07:59 PM

Thank you Bob! So I take it that the battery should be placed under the car's floor, driver's side, and not under the seat.

It seems I won't be able to remove the battery from the lowsy placement it has in the firewall area till I deal with the brakes first! mmmmm....

thanks!

Tom Wesenberg · 01-20-2016, 11:50 PM

Some of the head studs stick up too far.
Remove the distributor cap and wires and use the original style.
I'd also use the original style upper plate.
I'd also remove the cast wishbone ball cap and rubber boot and use the original clamping kit.
The tranny and bellhousing should be green.

Charlie Stephens · 01-21-2016, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

And here is my distributor. I am hoping it is also a wrong cap the one it has, but I prefer to ask... does it look like the correct distributor for a model B or model A?

Your distributer is a Model A. The Model B had automatic advance but on this one you can see the rod going to the lever for the advance. The condenser shouldn't be mounted inside of the cap so there is something else going on.

Charlie Stephens

Charlie Stephens · 01-21-2016, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

Thank you Bob! So I take it that the battery should be placed under the car's floor, driver's side, and not under the seat.

It seems I won't be able to remove the battery from the lowsy placement it has in the firewall area till I deal with the brakes first! mmmmm....

thanks!

Some of the suppliers sell a combination battery box and master cylinder mount. You might post a question asking what kind of luck they have had with these units and whose unit they have. I have heard some of them are to thin and flex.

Charlie Stephens

36 conv sedan · 01-21-2016, 12:24 PM

Cosmetics will have to be correct someday... painting everything in the correct shade of green... but that will have to wait.

What I will be doing now is correcting the "parts problems"... so, thanks for pointing out the A distributor and that it does have the wrong internals (my mechanic told me he suspected they were changed, but it works great and uses more modern points, but anyhow, eventually it will be corrected)... and of course needs it's correct cap and wires... I will get to all of it eventually. I will also get the upper plate and the correct clamping kit... hopefully I can find most of the parts with a supplier like Snyder's or Macs.

I will also check on the battery box and master cylinder mount... though I am not looking forward to that but to reverting the car to mechanical brakes. A friend of mine down here tells me he has everything needed to convert them back to original, so I might take that route.

Thanks for all the help!
Victor

darrylkmc · 01-21-2016, 12:53 PM

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I am no expert at 30-31 Cowl lights, but l would think that if you examine the installation, you should be able to determine if the Lamps were factory installed or installed later. I am sure someone can expand on this thought.

Factory installed would be a Deluxe, added lights would be a Standard.

Darryl in Fairbanks, -8 F

Tom Wesenberg · 01-21-2016, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36 conv sedan

Cosmetics will have to be correct someday... painting everything in the correct shade of green... but that will have to wait.

... I will also get the upper plate and the correct clamping kit... hopefully I can most of the parts with a supplier like Snyder's or Macs.

I will also check on the battery box and master cylinder mount... though I am not looking forward to that but to reverting the car to mechanical brakes. A friend of mine down here tells me he has everything needed to convert them back to original, so I might take that route.

Thanks for all the help!
Victor

Excellent idea to go back to good original mechanical brakes.

For parts suppliers I've mostly used A&L, Bert's, Bratton's, and Snyder's and have been satisfied with the service, speed of delivery, and most of the time the quality of the parts. Vintique parts aren't know for quality, but sometimes you have to use what you can get.

modelAtony · 01-21-2016, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Your distributer is a Model A. The Model B had automatic advance but on this one you can see the rod going to the lever for the advance. The condenser shouldn't be mounted inside of the cap so there is something else going on.

Charlie Stephens

Charlie, why cant he run this modern upper plate made by Nu- REX, MANY PEOPLE LIKE THEM AND IT KEEPS THE HEAT AWAY FROM CONDENSER. Have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

Charlie Stephens · 01-21-2016, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by modelAtony

Charlie, why cant he run this modern upper plate made by Nu- REX, MANY PEOPLE LIKE THEM AND IT KEEPS THE HEAT AWAY FROM CONDENSER. Have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

I wasn't trying to suggest that the plate was bad just that he should know it is not original. It makes it easier to order parts that way, you just have do do it once (and probably from the local auto parts store).

Charlie Stephens

modelAtony · 01-21-2016, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I wasn't trying to suggest that the plate was bad just that he should know it is not original. It makes it easier to order parts that way, you just have do do it once (and probably from the local auto parts store).

Charlie Stephens

Oh, I got ya. Always great to see you comment on site. You and Tom W. always keep me interested. Ya'll help so many, thanks for making this a # 1 site. Have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

36 conv sedan · 01-21-2016, 04:34 PM

Yes! I love and appreciate all the help I have been getting to determine what is and what is not original. That way I know what I have and decide eventually what will be corrected... ideally, everything that is wrong, but time will tell.

Thanks for all the help! Great forum.

Victor

01-09-2016, 03:51 PM	#3
flatford39 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NE Illinois Posts: 499	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster The shell is a 30. The aprons are 31. The horn is not correct. I can't tell from the pics about the windshield stanchions. You need to measure them when you get there. Deluxe I think are around 11" and standards are 13" if memory is correct. Count the screws in the a pillar holding the door hinges on. Early 30's only had two screws in the bottom hinge and all 31's have three. What's the title say???

01-09-2016, 03:53 PM	#4
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Your water outlet on the head appears to be the shorter 28-9 style. The paint looks to be in great condition, and I like the colors, so if it was mine I'd just make sure everything is lubed and working correctly, and drive it.

01-09-2016, 04:02 PM	#5
2manycars Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern CT Posts: 2,732	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster It looks to me like a late 30 standard roadster with cowl lamps added. The long splash aprons came into use in late 30. It has been converted to 12 volts with the battery on the firewall, and an alternator. The rear bumper spreader bar looks home made. Are the fenders steel or fiberglass? Any body filler in the body? It looks shiny, but odd colors and even the steering wheel is painted. The standard top irons should have a black top, not tan. It has a tillotson carburetor.

01-09-2016, 04:05 PM	#6
emf Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Hudson, NY Posts: 512	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) You also have a Model B engine, I think a plus... Nice looking car... Frank

01-09-2016, 04:06 PM	#7
36 conv sedan Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 95	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster flatford39: Title says 1931, and the three screws on the lower hinge would appear to prove it. Thanks for the tip! I amplified the pic and it seems to have them. Sorry for my lack of english... I am from Mexico... By aprons you mean the top bows? Are they different between a 1930 deluxe and a 1931 deluxe?

01-09-2016, 04:17 PM	#8
36 conv sedan Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 95	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster It does look nice, and paint is great, on an all steel body, but I would love to have it back to original, probably in black and blue, and I would not like to have a hard time finding parts, so I am going for it only if it is mostly complete. I am really concerned about the windshield and top, if they are correct for a Deluxe or not. If they are, then the car must be a 1931 with the wrong grill, as I read all the 1930 Deluxe models had the fender spares, which this car does not have. So far, from what I read, it is either a later 1930 or 1931 model (the 3 screws in the lower hinge, longer aprons, and round speedometer) The B motor is something I am not looking forward to. how to you tell them appart from a correct A motor? Thanks! Victor

01-09-2016, 04:24 PM	#9
mike657894 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Bay City Michigan Posts: 1,050	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster hide the battery back under the floor boards. paint the fenders black and drive it.

01-09-2016, 04:27 PM	#10
wrndln Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lakeville, MN Posts: 5,168	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster A model B motor has a fuel pump port on the lower, front right side of the engine . In your 4th picture, you can see it is blocked off with a plate and 2 bolts. Even though the car is definitely not restored with original colors and has some extra "goodies" on it and a number of non-original items, it doesn't look too bad. I agree that if the fenders and splash aprons were painted black, like they should be, the car would look a lot better. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but model A's in my opinion, should have black fenders on them. Even though the roadster is "dolled up" it looks decent. It would take some effort to make the car look like it was originally made, but if you are not a purest, doing a few things, or doing nothing, would be an option and just driving it. Rusty Nelson Last edited by wrndln; 01-09-2016 at 04:37 PM.

01-09-2016, 04:40 PM	#11
western77 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Grand Rapids Mi Posts: 168	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster The B has a small plate with 2bolts holding it to the block just above the oil pan towards the front of the engine carb side. It also has no external oil return from the valve chamber. The valve cover is taller. JB

01-09-2016, 04:46 PM	#12
Barry B./ Ma. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southbridge, Ma. Posts: 1,614	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Oh boy, that would be a good part time job making everything correct. It appears to be a 31 standard roadster. The engine has the block off plate where the fuel pump sits on the Model B (right side engine view). I would tend to leave the paint alone other than painting the fenders and splash aprons black. The phillips head screws should be replaced with straight slotted screws. Interior looks nice as is but the seats and inner panels would be black on a std. roadster.

01-09-2016, 05:03 PM	#13
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster About the only way I can tell the years apart are the lower 3 screw hinges and the windshield height . Anything can be changed and its hard to tell what has been done over the years. But, those 2 things probably tend to stay with the vehicle. The windshield height is 15" on Std and 13" on Deluxe. But, that too can be changed quite easily. The Std are rare, more Deluxe were made. Plus, many Stds were 'Deluxed'.

01-09-2016, 05:31 PM	#14
mike657894 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Bay City Michigan Posts: 1,050	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster From looking at all the roadsters online. You are right about the wood bows. wood being prone to rot and other problems it was probably replaced with a metal reproduction when it was restored.

01-09-2016, 07:12 PM	#16
Stretch Cab Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lexington, NC Posts: 696	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster I used to live near the DF as I see the car is from. If you buy the car it might be good to have the car delivered to the outside of the city as the Federal Police do not like private people towing anything in the city. I found this out the very hard way! Also, might give an idea of the price as there may be better deals available out of some of the border states.

01-09-2016, 10:13 PM	#17
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,045	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Is the title clean? The serial number for the car is stamped into the top of the frame but it is under the front of the body where it cannot be seen without lifting the body. Most cars were registered either by the engine number or a tag attached by the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). Since the engine is a Model B there is no number on the block unless someone stamped it there (beginning in 1932 the blocks were not numbered). Stamping a number into the side of the block (or anywhere else) will get you in trouble in most states). Does the number on the title match something on the car? If the paperwork doesn't match the number on the car it might be more trouble than it is worth. Charlie Stephens

01-09-2016, 10:14 PM	#18
36 conv sedan Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 95	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Thank you all for your input. I am not sure we are talking about a real salad... or a lot of mixed components, that is, other than the engine and top bows. If I am right, from your comments, it is a late 1930 or 1931 model (the 3 screws in the lower hinge, longer aprons, and round speedometer), and due to the apparent windshield height (which I need to measure next week) it could very well be a Deluxe from origin, in which the incorrect bows may have been placed, same as a 1930 grill and of course, the engine and hydraulic brakes... which may be not that rare in a model A. True, it is far off from a good original, which would be a dream to own, but I guess that finding an engine from an A is not that difficult (in fact, a friend down here who has a couple of A's is telling me he has a couple of extra engines and he likes the B engine, so maybe I can talk him into selling me an engine already done (he is a great mechanic, expert on T's and A's) or perhaps giving my B engine as a part trade. I do not know what has gone into the car but I know the owner who is a good friend of mine and who has his own shop and does things well done in the sense of good labor but always according to his own tastes which as you see difer from original, so I am pretty sure the body will be fine, but again, it would be a good basis for me. If I can get a correct A engine from my friend, and find a set of good or reproduction top irons for the Deluxe, I believe I would have the correct components to make it look again like a 1931 Deluxe... or wouldn't I? I could paint fender and aprons black and use it as is for a good while, and eventually restore it in it's correct colors. The car is in Cuernavaca, and I live in Queretaro, so I do have to go through the DF (Mexico city), but no doubt I would hire a plataform to do the move. It is a 5 or 6 hour trip, considering little traffic in the big city. Thanks again for all the help, victor

01-09-2016, 10:17 PM	#19
36 conv sedan Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 95	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Charlie: Our posts crossed. Thanks for the explanation on block numbers. I have no idea how the car is titled to far... and my friend is not computer-friendly, so I will have to take a look at the car next monday morning in Cuernavaca (a city 1.5 hours from Mexico city) and hopefully see the papers back in Mexico city in the afternoon. If things match, they I could go ahead and get it. If they don't, as you say, it would be trouble, more than it is worth, but I would still like to explore the possibility of getting it. Question: How can I tell a 1931 model A ford engine from an earlier one? Do have have stamped numbers? I am hoping my friend might have a 1931 engine among the two he has... thanks, victor

01-09-2016, 10:27 PM	#20
36 conv sedan Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 95	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Oh, and about price... My friend is asking $16,000, which is not cheap, but again, there are not many available around down here, and buying one in the US and getting it down here would cost me 75% over the cost of the car (duties and taxes plus transport). I don’t know for how much you could get an equivalent condition car (working, to be restored) in the US, but then adding those costs would render it forbiddingly expensive compared to their market value. Victor

01-09-2016, 10:41 PM	#21
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Looks like a late 30 STD to me also.

01-10-2016, 12:36 AM	#22
flatford39 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NE Illinois Posts: 499	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Cuernavaca???? Really...Is Los Mananitas still there??? It's worth the ten hour drive just to go to Cuernavaca. I spent some time there in the early 80's and really fell in love with that city.

01-10-2016, 12:40 AM	#23
36 conv sedan Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 95	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Yes, Las Mañanitas is still there... Did you ever visit Barabara Hutton's magnificent oriental style home, Sumiya? It is now a 5 star hotel also. Camino Real. Great place. In fact the car is just behind it, 5 mintutes away.

01-10-2016, 01:32 AM	#25
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Is it a good price for a roadster in Mexico? Do deluxes go for much more money then standard? Do you have affordable access to the parts to make it all one year, 1931? I ask these questions because if the car in good condition and for a good, fair price, buy it. Buy it, get it running well, stopping well, drive it often to learn about the workings of a Model A. Don't worry about the paint, don't worry about the engine, don't worry about the other things that are not "factory". After enjoying it for a while then, and only then, start to replace things. The above it my opinion. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

01-10-2016, 09:38 AM	#26
Roadster Rich Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alpharetta, Georgia (Atlanta) Posts: 272	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) From what I can see the top bows are a standard and just as they should be. Comparing to mine they look proportionally correct, so I would bet your windshield stantions are the taller ones for a standard. I would not want to make those changes to get to a smaller height (not so easy getting in and out of and worse driving sight lines). I don't see any reason why you could not make this correct as a standard (black top bow metal color) with just the added cowl lights. I think this was added to many back when they were purchased. I think you would wish you hadn't dropped the roof height it you do that.

01-10-2016, 11:17 AM	#27
modelAtony Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: lafayette,la Posts: 459	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Victor, If the car runs and drives as good as it looks , I think you have a great deal for 16,000. I would only change the battery away from firewall and put it back under floorboard. The heck with changing the paint, it looks like a fine car. Fill it with gas a drive the wheels off of it. PONCHO would have loved to have this car. Hope you enjoy the nice car , have fun modelAtony, tony white Lafayette, LA Last edited by modelAtony; 01-11-2016 at 12:42 PM.

01-10-2016, 01:10 PM	#28
Steve Plucker BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Walla Walla, Washington USA Posts: 6,066	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster You also might want to start with copies of the MARC/MAFCA Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards (don't let the "Judging Standards" scare you) and a copy of the Model A Ford Service Bulletins. Pluck

01-10-2016, 05:46 PM	#33
Binger Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Cheyoming Posts: 136	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Seeing the B block makes you wonder what trans is behind it. There may be lots of surprises. if its an A head I wonder if it is high compression and possibly aluminum. Take a magnet and check! Wonder if it has the counter balanced crank in it too. Also it looks like it has hydraulic brakes on it too. I can see a brake hose in one of the pictures. That would explain the battery box on the fire wall. The car looks like a great driver and I would leave it alone and enjoy it as is. Would be a major restoration to bring it up to the judging standards. Might be more fun just to drive it.

01-10-2016, 06:12 PM	#34
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster If your car had factory cowl lights, then the headlamp reflectors would be different, and they would NOT have the parking lights in them. The headlamp switch turns on the parking lights, or cowl lights if so equiped, but never when the headlamps are on.

01-10-2016, 07:19 PM	#35
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Interesting paint choice, clearly not original but nonetheless tastefully done. __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

01-10-2016, 08:25 PM	#36
henry's 31 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Columbus(Cataula) Georgia Posts: 849	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Hi Victor: Your English seems fine. Do not worry about parts. You can get almost everything from the different vendors. I would drive it at first and then after a while restore it if that is what you want. If you want to go original purchase the Judging standards book. To work on the car purchase Andrews books. You can do a lot of the work yourself. Also join a local club if available. Welcome to the hobby! __________________ Henry' s 31

01-10-2016, 11:04 PM	#37
36 conv sedan Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 95	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Thank you all! I already commited to visit tomorrow. I will report on findings. A local friend told me something about later 1931 models having an indented firewall and a gas shutter valve on the engine side, while earlier ones with a flat firewall had the gas shutter valve inside the car... can anybody elaborate on this?

01-11-2016, 01:10 AM	#39
36 conv sedan Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 95	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Rechecking on things, and comparing to the pictures of the car, I guess it is pretty safe to assume it is a 1931 model, because of the 3 screws in the lower door hinge, round speedometer and the one piece running board splash shield. I am not sure if it has the indented firewall or not, but I will check tomorrow. Also, a Standard, because of the top bows with apparent correct style and geometry for that model. So, I believe it is fairly safe to call it a 1931 Standard roadster.

01-11-2016, 01:11 AM	#40
36 conv sedan Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 95	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster What can I check on transmission? More than once, I read the comment of worries about the type of transmission it may have... Can any of you give me clues as to what do I need to look for? Thanks, victor Last edited by 36 conv sedan; 01-11-2016 at 02:16 AM.

01-11-2016, 08:30 AM	#41
Binger Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Cheyoming Posts: 136	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster I wouldn't worry too much about the transmission. It is probably not model A. However, A transmissions can be set up on B engines easily. Could be a B transmission or even a later V8. The bell housing and flywheel housings are different between As and Bs. Sorry I don't have any pictures of the differences. I am curious about the hydraulic brake set up. Someone built the car into a nice driver with some upgrades. Apart from the hard core model A guys nobody will ever know its not completely stock.

01-11-2016, 12:46 PM	#42
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,045	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster It is nice to have good brakes (understatement). Having said that take some pictures of the brake system, lines, master cylinder mount, linkage. Many people trying to improve the brakes by adding hydraulics end up with a system that is less safe than the original mechanicals. Either system is good but there are more chances of messing up the hydraulics since they require creativity where the mechanicals only requiring restoring or replacing parts. Charlie Stephens

01-11-2016, 08:21 PM	#44
mot Registered User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sacramento Ca Posts: 1,179	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster dont be too quick to get rid of the B engine many of them have counterbalanced cranks,which make for smoother running and they go for a lot more than a model A motor if they are in good shape the headlamp bar is also incorrect it should have a nice curve the whole length not flat on the top side tom

01-12-2016, 07:47 AM	#47
Barry B./ Ma. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southbridge, Ma. Posts: 1,614	Re: Help identifying a 1931 roadster Congratulations on your purchase. Many years of happy motoring ahead. I think the first thing I would do is to add the glass windwings to the windshield posts. Looks like they used a standard roadster top to the deluxe windshield posts which is no big deal and it was only a matter of attaching the rear of the top in the right position for the assembly to align with the windshield posts, I would leave things as they are. I don't see any body sockets for (side window) side curtains but I never used the side curtains on mine and it is OK as long as you don't drive it in the rain.