05-05-2017, 06:33 PM | #1 |
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New block
I just got an 8BA engine in that I plan on using the block for designing a new 8BA block. I need to tear it apart and then I can begin modeling up a new one with whatever improvements people can come up with. Any positive input will be appreciated.
I have several people already interested in these. Tod |
05-05-2017, 06:42 PM | #2 |
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Re: New block
Cool where ya get it
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05-05-2017, 06:45 PM | #3 |
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Re: New block
Good luck, been tried several times before!
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05-05-2017, 06:45 PM | #4 |
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Re: New block
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05-05-2017, 07:02 PM | #5 |
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Re: New block
Where in logansport
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05-05-2017, 07:13 PM | #6 |
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Re: New block
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I wonder if there would be more of a market for the pre 1948 24 stud blocks? I believe that they are shorter and a better fit for the early cars. I am just an observer and not a customer for either. Charlie Stephens |
05-05-2017, 07:52 PM | #7 |
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Re: New block
It seems that the old blocks had a tendency to crack. If you could eliminate that tendency, it would be great. I assume a design flaw in the original block, but what do I know?
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05-05-2017, 07:54 PM | #8 |
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Re: New block
Thicker decks, stronger main bearing web area, move end exhaust ports out and enlarge.
Hope you have deep pockets. |
05-05-2017, 08:15 PM | #9 |
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Re: New block
If you really want to reproduce this block, I suggest you talk to JWL and Ray Fedrosky. I also believe the block must be capable of receiving ALL fors original pieces parts.
Good luck |
05-05-2017, 10:30 PM | #10 |
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Re: New block
Go man Go!
Flatheads Forever! put an extra hole in the rear oil port to make the full flow oiling option easier, and thread ithe passage for a plug. I think a lot of the Canadian motors were done that way. |
05-06-2017, 07:05 AM | #11 |
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Re: New block
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05-06-2017, 07:09 AM | #12 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Why would I need deep pockets? This is far from my first block project. Tod |
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05-06-2017, 08:12 AM | #13 |
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Re: New block
Don't think it is a question of need, it is a question of cost. The price would be way beyond the means of almost any interested buyer and the market very limited. About the only market would be Hot Rodders, competition bodies would not allow it and it is not original for the restoration folks.
To cast a block out of cast iron would be very difficult, developing the cores would be very difficult, on and on. The machine work along would be a major cost factor. I'm all for it if it could be done. Last edited by JSeery; 05-06-2017 at 08:23 AM. |
05-06-2017, 09:28 AM | #14 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-06-2017, 09:34 AM | #15 |
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Re: New block
Yes, LOL. The flathead is a totally different animal. What are the foundry estimates? And who is building the core boxes? I have foundry experience and core design and manufacturing experience and know the cost involved. How many hours is involved in the machine work on say an FE block?
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05-06-2017, 09:59 AM | #16 |
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Re: New block
Tod, I realize you asked for suggested improvements, but for those of us that have not built a block, can you walk us through how you do it? I imagine things like lost foam and 3-d printers but would like to hear how you go about it.
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05-06-2017, 10:00 AM | #17 |
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Re: New block
He does very impressive work. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-works.616056/
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05-06-2017, 10:05 AM | #18 |
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Re: New block
I've seen 3D printed sand cores, I say go for it, would you cast in aluminum?, its getting harder and harder to find decent rebuildable blocks.
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05-06-2017, 10:29 AM | #19 |
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Re: New block
Just a couple of things to shoot for.
Perhaps concentrating on the bore size limitations of the blocks as they are. Allow extra material that would permit boring to an oversize that is more desirable to some without compromising reliability. And give attention to better intake and exhaust flow characteristics.
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05-06-2017, 11:00 AM | #20 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
An example of machine time would be my Model A first OP which is most of the block, takes 5 hours running at 25% rapid travel and 40% feed rates. That is on my Toyoda FH55. I can cut a Cleveland or FE block in less than 20 hours on slow feed rates. I use slow feed rates because I am usually doing other things at the same time so I don't have to be hovering over all machining that is going on. A casting this simple would probably be around $900. My investment will be negligible, so it allows me to make a return with little in it. I am also in the process of buying more foundry equipment than I already have to expand into pouring my own blocks. Even if I didn't, I have quality foundry people to count on. Tod |
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05-06-2017, 11:00 AM | #21 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-06-2017, 11:01 AM | #22 |
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05-06-2017, 11:09 AM | #23 |
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Re: New block
First issue improving the block is that it won´t be allowed at historic racing.
So either a high nickel std 59AB block for trying to get it aproved in classic racing...that will be a fight... Or an all out fairly stock looking 59AB raceblock. |
05-06-2017, 11:13 AM | #24 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Basically, I design the block. Then I decide how I want to cast it. I then design the tooling to facilitate the pouring process. Sometimes changes to processes are necessary due to different foundry methods and capabilities. The auto makers do things a certain way (with billions invested) to make castings as cheap as possible and as quickly as possible. For example, Ford foundry in Cleveland was producing one V8 block every 39 seconds on one of their automatic lines. It takes me about 30 minutes to assemble one of my molds and have it ready to pour. I do not used lost foam at all in my blocks. Printed core technology is very expensive right now, but also easier in some ways. You need to know what to do and when and how it all effects end cost. If I spend more for printed cores it will save time and cost elsewhere, but is it enough? Do I eat some cost and reduce profit? It all needs accounted for. Tod |
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05-06-2017, 11:42 AM | #25 | |
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Re: New block
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05-06-2017, 12:20 PM | #26 |
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Re: New block
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05-06-2017, 12:41 PM | #27 | |
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Re: New block
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05-06-2017, 12:53 PM | #28 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-06-2017, 01:24 PM | #29 | |
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05-06-2017, 02:28 PM | #30 |
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Re: New block
Tod, please don't let the nay sayers discourage you. I think there would be as large a market for a flathead block as there is for the Model A block and maybe larger. I think it would be imperative that the new block use original internal parts. And i think the '39 -'48 block would be a LOT more desirable. I second the recomendation to get in touch with JohnLawson. Followed your progress on the Model A block, beautiful.
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05-06-2017, 02:57 PM | #31 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
I have Model A orders to fill. Blocks and heads. Got the new OHV about ready too, with buyers waiting. Tod |
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05-06-2017, 04:12 PM | #32 |
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Re: New block
I'm not sure what the French blocks are going for now days or if folks are even purchasing any of them or not. The 8BA block would make more sense from its adaptability standpoint. Folks would need the pickup/Mercury pressings or maybe the 51 Mercury bell housing casting to adapt them to the early configuration types. If say $2500 per copy is do-able then there may be a market.
There will come a time when the old ones get played pretty well out but that may not be in my lifetime. I've purchased stuff like that before when an effort to make things like new was needed. There would be some market but I certainly wouldn't be the one to figure how much of one there'd be. The Aluminum large bore set up that Mark Kirby started has some promise but it seems to be in limbo right now. After the big slump in 2008 folks have been holding on to their purse strings a little tighter. Bottom line is that all of us would like to be able to go out and buy new parts like this but how many of us actually would is the mystery. |
05-06-2017, 04:17 PM | #33 |
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Re: New block
Hmm, I didn't think there was a whole lot of naysaying or BS. Looked like a lot of people were intrigued and some offered suggestions. Oh well.
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05-06-2017, 04:40 PM | #34 | |
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Re: New block
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Tod |
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05-06-2017, 04:57 PM | #35 |
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Re: New block
Folks that didn't know who you are before, including myself, just needed to know more. You are not the only person to bring this up in the past few years and some that have previously likely didnt have the skill sets you possess so you have to bear with us till some of us get more familiar with you and your capabilities. There are quite a few folks that frequent here that have a lot of years in the hobby and may be skeptical of folks they don't know so well yet.
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05-06-2017, 05:18 PM | #36 | |
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Re: New block
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05-06-2017, 06:07 PM | #37 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
I think the video shows why the project was aborted. In addition to Mark Kirby there was an additional brain trust involved in the project and they re-engineered the whole package. There isn't much they left on the table that is not unique to the MCFH aluminum block; d-ports, smaller, relocated head studs, roller cam and unique guides, proprietary heads needed for new stud locations, revised oil pan, water pumps, front cover, cam gears, Fluiddamper balancer and on and on. It is for certain a complete work of engineering excellence, but all the upgrades made it out of reach ($$$$$) for the typical hobbiest and it's for that reason I think the project was shelved. Who wouldn't want one, but how many could pay for, or justify the cost?
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05-06-2017, 09:12 PM | #38 |
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Re: New block
Tod,
Ignore the gloom and doom folks. I am sure you will do your homework and make the best decision. Personally, I admire you for what you have done and am certain the future will bode well as long as you keep your finger in the flathead pie. |
05-06-2017, 09:26 PM | #39 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
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05-06-2017, 11:33 PM | #40 |
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Re: New block
Tod
I have to say that at one time I thought the same thing, it would be just too expensive. However, the improvements in the casting and machining processes has changed my mind. Especially when a person ike yourself has the knowledge and wherewithal to attempt this at a reasonable cost. At present everything is available from the aftermarket, except the block. just think a nice 265 ci flathead with (8:1CR) with all stock parts in it except the pistons and block. Make a nice street engine for anyone. |
05-07-2017, 12:27 AM | #41 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
True. Been interesting to read his progress on the A pages.
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05-07-2017, 06:13 AM | #42 | |
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Re: New block
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05-07-2017, 09:35 AM | #43 |
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Re: New block
I wonder if there would be a way to make the rear of the block casting so you could change cores and have the old style bellhousing or even something like a smallblock Ford. Could save people from having to look for parts or buy adapters. Just a question.
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05-07-2017, 09:52 AM | #44 |
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Re: New block
First of all, I would like to say that I have been following Tod's progress on the Model "A" block on the H.A.M.B. for the last several years, and have been very impressed. That being said, I think the project may not be worth pursuing for a very different reason. The guys mainly interested in these are all aging fast. Let's face it; a lot of us will be gone in the next ten years. I am willing to bet that there is an adequate supply of good flathead blocks stashed away by guys like us. I'm not nearly as serious about flatheads as most on this forum, but I have four good blocks "under the bench". Some of the guys out there (you know who you are) probably have 10 or more in their stashes. When this generation starts passing, these blocks will become available. I wouldn't be surprised that in 10 or 20 years, the supply of good blocks may exceed the demand. It's really hard to contemplate your own mortality, but those are the facts.
Oh, and I doubt if any of these will mistakenly go to the scrapper. I have made the facts of the value of this stuff abundantly clear to my family, so I believe they realize that some of this stuff is worth a lot. I have noticed on several of the forums I frequent that a lot of other guys in my situation are dong the same thing. |
05-07-2017, 10:18 AM | #45 |
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Re: New block
tubman, have your "stashed" blocks already been cleaned, magnafluxed, etc and are known to be usable without repair? I'm new to FH V8's but around my neck of the woods a 8ba that isn't froze up sells for 500-800 dollars and seems most buy at least 2 or 3 before they find one good enough to get repaired...
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05-07-2017, 10:59 AM | #46 | |
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Re: New block
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Quote:
Tod |
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05-07-2017, 01:49 PM | #47 |
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Re: New block
To expand on the bell housing topic, - put enough beef in it to be safely mounted on and engine stand.
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05-07-2017, 01:59 PM | #48 |
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Re: New block
As far as I'm concerned, if Tod could build a block that would accept stock parts, fit in the truck the way it is supposed to, and be able to be bored out, stroked, relieved, ported I'd buy one as soon as I could afford one.
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05-07-2017, 04:50 PM | #49 |
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Re: New block
Tod the answer to your question about improvements is easy the way I see it. If you were able to get your hands on one of the French flathead blocks that were cast in the eighty's those blocks in my opinion have every improvement all of us would be happy with.
The deck thickness, material used in casting, the exhaust port design the center main support are just a few improvements compared to the Ford blocks. Over the last few years I have been progressively pushing the Ford and French blocks to their limits in my Land Speed racing endeavors. Using gasoline and blower boost which is hard on any engine its extremely hard on our beloved flathead Ford V-8. The French block hands down takes far more abuse than the Ford casting before experiencing any failures. I would be happy to talk to you about this if your are interested. Tod taking on this project I know from your experiance it will be worth the time and effort and some of us will certainly be buying the block when it becomes avalible. Ronnieroadster |
05-07-2017, 05:58 PM | #50 |
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Re: New block
Ron the roadster has a good point, but from a manufacturing point of view, I think the 8BA rear of the block would be the best choice as you can bolt any transmission made by Ford from 32 to 53 to it using stock parts. Yes there are some porting improvements that could be addressed with out affecting the use of stock parts. I think the biggest customer is a street builder who want's a reliable engine and not a 75 year odl casting.
Good luck. |
05-07-2017, 07:24 PM | #51 |
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Re: New block
Tod, at 900$ a block I would think there would quite a demand for them.
A guaranteed good block for 900$ heck yeah!! |
05-07-2017, 07:32 PM | #52 |
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Re: New block
900$ ???????????????
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05-07-2017, 07:50 PM | #53 |
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Re: New block
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05-07-2017, 10:35 PM | #54 |
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Re: New block
Last year I got a call for a block for a rebuild for a large 38 truck. I didn't have any early blocks for sale. A few months later I met him and he said he bought an 8bA block for 700 dollars. I thought that was alittle hi, but he said he couldn't find any good ones.
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05-08-2017, 05:39 AM | #55 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-08-2017, 05:53 AM | #56 |
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Re: New block
Give us an estimate...i´m familiar with the cost for developing stuff so if you come up with a number that will work i gladly pitch in to a development fond.
I´ll donate $100 to research and development !! Think there are more people around here that will do the same to make sure something like this really happens. |
05-08-2017, 06:12 AM | #57 |
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Re: New block
I'm initially estimating blocks rough machined and ready for finish machining, which means to individual customer specs in the low to mid 2k range ($2300-$2500) (I have found that people want different things like bore size, bushed lifter bores, cam bearings, deck heights, etc... but that all might not apply to this project).
The idea would be to supply machined blocks that can be finished by competent builders to stock and further. I learned early on when making FE blocks that no 2 people seem to want the same things so the best way to go about it from my end was supply something that could make any thing. Finish machine cost would depend on how much a person wants to veer from stock. If it is feasible, I could have finish machining done in my shop or locally by reputable shops. I do not have a line bore or line hone so I cannot do that right now. If need be I can figure on getting into that. A 5 main version, or one with other modifications that have come up would obviously cost a little more. Tod |
05-08-2017, 08:55 AM | #58 |
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Re: New block
So a guy looking to build a hot rod goes out and buys himself an 8ba core motor complete carb to pan for $800.00. Tears it down and sends it to the machine shop where it is cleaned and maged only to find out it is cracked. OK so at this point he is down about 1k.
What to do now? Buy another core and repeat process with fingers crossed? find a good used block if lucky enough for 700.00 and still have to invest into reconditioning it?? Or buy a new machined block and take the guessing out of the equation? Pretty simple answer. By offering a new fully machined block you take the guess work out of what it would cost to build one and remove the risk of getting buried in a pile of junk cracked blocks. Your estimate is ball park where you need to be, although I would like it to be about 2200.00 max, but im a cheap bastard anyways. |
05-08-2017, 09:27 AM | #59 |
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Re: New block
Changing the main journal structure would take a different bottom end too. I think you have the right idea. If you stray too far from the OEM it complicates things. That may have been what stumped the Motor City project.
I think the French made block's biggest improvement was the modern casting material formula. It's a hybrid of the early 239 CID 99A/59A types and the later 8BA types. My only problem with it is that it is already relieved. Not much choice there. Even SF flatheads decided to remove that big governor lump on the back too. Starting with a fresh casting would eliminate stuff like that. The 8BA would be the easier one to cast. The half bell part of the earlier block alone makes it a more complicated project. Changing exhaust ports may complicate things too. If anything grows larger or changes shape it makes for changes to water jackets or other internal/external block dimensions. Most Folks would like to be able to go out to at least 3 3/8" without worry but if the bore size grows too much, the whole block will have to grow too. I don't think anyone wants a 337 Lincoln sized block. |
05-08-2017, 09:50 AM | #60 |
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Re: New block
If a new cast block was priced at say $2500 I would think you could sell them faster than you could produce them!
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05-08-2017, 10:25 AM | #61 |
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Re: New block
Knowing that it was a "good" block would make it well worth that amount.
Folks realize building a flatty is no longer cheap. |
05-08-2017, 01:15 PM | #62 |
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Re: New block
2500 for a fully machined block. That means the valve job is done and the cylinders a bored to standard. The top is decked too. Guys wanting to go big would not have to worry about sonic testing or core shifts. Here's an idea that was not mentioned. Do we really need those big valve guides? Could the be machined for a modern press in bronze guide? I realize there might be an issue machining the lifter bores.
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05-08-2017, 02:25 PM | #63 |
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Re: New block
Tod,
You obviously have the knowledge to do this so I say if you have done your homework on demand and cost and believe your business case is solid then go for it. Original blocks are getting harder and harder to find. If you can come up with a cost effective replacement then go for it. |
05-08-2017, 03:32 PM | #64 |
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Re: New block
After doing some more model work to my OHV water jacket model I ran around some and while I was out I stopped by the foundry to pick up 6 of my new iron Thomas heads. Then I went back to the shop and tore most of the top of the 8BA off. Looks like one cylinder is the culprit in this one binding up.
Tod |
05-08-2017, 04:59 PM | #65 |
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Re: New block
Neat! Iron Thomas heads!
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05-08-2017, 05:10 PM | #66 |
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Re: New block
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You are amazing. Just the kind of person flathead folks need. Keep doing your thing. |
05-08-2017, 05:23 PM | #67 |
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Re: New block
GOD speed sir!!! I'm 83
Good luck! |
05-08-2017, 05:57 PM | #68 |
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Re: New block
I'm with Coop and I'm 84. Wish I lived near you, I'd help.
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05-08-2017, 06:01 PM | #69 |
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Re: New block
I love the idea . . . and I'm going to help if I can to make this happen!
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05-08-2017, 06:13 PM | #70 |
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Re: New block
I hate to jump in this great post, But If I sell a block and it is bad.. YOU get your money back or another Block. I hate to see fellows spend money for both the part and the inspection. aka I have a cracked Merc crank for free to any one, after a buyer had it inspected! Love the Barn Newc
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05-09-2017, 05:49 PM | #71 |
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Re: New block
How about making an iron master cylinder with stainless sleeve that is like a 1940 ford 3 bolt pattern, but has dual reservoir for front and rear brakes and provision for the stock brake light switch on the back. That would be great! I wish that existed.
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05-10-2017, 09:13 AM | #72 |
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Re: New block
you are too good to be true..
question ? how many people help you ? wish I was near you --- I would pay to help |
05-10-2017, 12:45 PM | #73 |
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Re: New block
Tod: are you going to start a gofundme or Kickstarter campaign to fund production, I've been looking for a decent rebuildable block for almost a year not having much luck, so I'm interested.
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05-10-2017, 03:16 PM | #74 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
I do all design work myself, all tooling work myself, all machine programming myself, all fixturing myself, and I have help to run normal day-to-day production on easy stuff. Harder things, I have to do myself. If I was really too good to be true I could find a job and not have to do all this. Nobody will hire me, after they see my resume. I will need more help if I can get investors to come through on my new foundry. I have several people that want in and I am looking at places to put the foundry and move my machine shop along side of. And YES, I actually know what is involved in pouring metal, having owned a foundry in the past, as well as working with at least 50 foundries around the country over the last 40 years. My foundry will pour all my blocks, heads, intakes, headers, and other stuff I have ability to get in the door. Huge potential! Tod |
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05-10-2017, 03:21 PM | #75 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-10-2017, 03:45 PM | #76 |
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Re: New block
67 Econoline-ish?
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05-10-2017, 03:52 PM | #77 |
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Re: New block
I would love to have the functionality of the dual master cylinder
(this) with the mounting flange of this Without having to use this adapter Maybe the casting could look like this, but have two plugs on the top and two outlets on the side, and brake switch outlet on the back. This is Econoline
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05-10-2017, 04:18 PM | #78 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-10-2017, 04:22 PM | #79 |
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Re: New block
^^ long one of my wishes too, with residual valves built in, a pressure switch tapping and a 1-1/16" bore. Ports for 1/4" lines straight in would be good too.
I think we just went off on a tangent. I like the idea of a new block, though, Tod. I'm afraid I'd never be in the market for one, though. With so little background info in the original post it is easy to see why some did not take it seriously. Kudos, though, you have the experience to pull this one off. Mart. |
05-10-2017, 05:35 PM | #80 |
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Re: New block
Master cylinders are kind of off topic except for the form of manufacture. Dual masters have to have two separate pressure chambers along with the dual reservoirs. Just like anything else, when you modify a casting design, everything grows. It might just be easier to find the best dual master available and settle for that. As long as my E-brake works good, I don't worry much about having a single chamber master cylinder. I owned a lot of cars before I finally had one set up that way and I never had any troubles with them.
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05-10-2017, 08:02 PM | #81 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
NOW I'm ready to bore, hone, grind seats, scrub, check head gasket surfaces for flatness, the mains for straightness, etc, etc,etc. I'm relatively new to flatheads but I've been building restoring and racing since the late '60s. I own a machine shop that mfgs. driveline parts and does job shop work, so I'm able to do a lot of my own work. All that time spent on junk blocks was time I could have been charging customers or making product. $2500 for a block I could use with a bit of machine work would have been the biggest bargain I've had in years. As the supply of old junk engines dwindles further and the cost of rebuilding them increases your block will only get more valuable and desirable. On the subject of what to make, it seems to me the 59A blocks are more desired for rodders, because they fit better in pre-49 cars, including model A swaps. When It seemed I'd never find a good 21 stud block I considered using a 59A style block and adapting the early heads somehow. Poking around in a 24 stud block revealed that the stud holes have a cast boss on the underside of the block deck to provide longer threads for the studs, so that meant I couldn't just redrill a block. If it did have the thickness where it was needed, it would have been doable, there were no water holes that conflicted IIRC. I considered building 24 stud heads that accepted water pumps, during that time I found that Willy Glass had in fact done that by modifying Edelbrock heads. About then I found the good block I have now so I didn't go any further. So - if you build a 59a block and leave material in the deck to allow drilling for the 21 stud pattern, that would expand your potential market to the earlier car folks who want to drive their early cars. it would give them a block that could be bored much larger than the 3.188" that the 37 is limited to, and would accept a longer 4"+ stroke crank all in new insert bearings instead of scrounging for NOS bearing shells for the early cranks. |
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05-11-2017, 11:14 AM | #82 |
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Re: New block
There may be some slight differences on location for the two bolts on each end of the deck but the bottom of the deck is where the real difference lies between 21 and 24 stud motors. If the deck were made thicker down there all the way along the bottom it might be doable to make some interchangeability between the two types. The 21 has five holes down there and the 24 has 8 so maybe...? It might make the deck a bit stonger too.
If a half bell casting was made for the back that could simulate the early style blocks better and use the early type oil pan, an 8BA type could possibly be adapted killing two birds with one stone. Just about everything else could be worked around one way or another. All are just thoughts but maybe worth kicking it around. |
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05-11-2017, 11:55 AM | #83 |
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Re: New block
The last two posters make interesting points. There seem to be three major groups of flatheads; 21 studs, early 24 studs, and late 24 studs (8BA). By making one specific type of block, you would be eliminating about half the potential market. "rotorwrench" expressed some potential ways that all three groups MAY be able to be accommodated. (I am not familiar enough with the engineering aspects of the three basic types of blocks to even venture a guess as to whether it would even be technically possible to do this.) The drawback of a block like this is that it would not be legal in most racing associations, although I suspect that may change with the passage of time. I am also one of those who have no need for one, but it is fun to sit back and watch. I have really appreciated "Tod"'s thread on the H.A.M.B. about the 4 cylinder block and heads, and I hope to be seeing a similar one about V8's. Keep up the good work!
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05-11-2017, 12:41 PM | #84 |
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Re: New block
There is also info out there about the 351 Cleveland blocks too. Not so much about the FE blocks. I think he is getting to know his way around foundries & machines OK.
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05-11-2017, 01:44 PM | #85 |
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Re: New block
I CMMed a pair of new Victor head gaskets as a rough way to get the bolt patterns for 21 and 24 stud heads. The red circles are 24 stud and the blue circles are 21 stud. It looks like there are 12 holes that are the same, the row across the top and the holes between the cylinders.
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05-11-2017, 02:10 PM | #86 | |
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Re: New block
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Quote:
Tod |
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05-11-2017, 02:12 PM | #87 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-11-2017, 02:37 PM | #88 |
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Re: New block
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05-11-2017, 03:33 PM | #89 |
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Re: New block
In the 21 stud range there were the 32 thru part of 35 that were all very similar with only minor machining & casting changes. Then the late 35/36 with replaceable bearing shells and the 37/38 block with the first block mounted pumps.
24 stud blocks started with the 38 through 40 221 CID with the 239 CID blocks starting in 1939. The 1939 99A block was supposed to be the one that had the thickest cylinder walls for boring of all the flathead blocks. In 1941, the castings changed in several ways but I'm not sure how far it went internally. They did away with the core sand holes in the pan rails and reduced the amount of iron around the intake deck. This was also done to the 239 CID blocks and these carried through to WWII. It's possible that the 19A (1941) 239 blocks had the same cylinder wall thickness as the post war blocks but I don't know that for sure. The post war 59 series was a good solid 239 block but there was also the 41A type that was a replacement for prewar 221 blocks but had some characteristics of the 59A block as well. I'm sure they used some of the same cores between the two but not all since the 221 had thinner cylinder walls. 8BA blocks had three changes but they were mostly machining changes to valve pockets without hard seats and such. The basic block stayed the same all the way through the end of production. I'd love it if you could get any block you wanted but obviously a person would have to draw a line there somewhere with that many changes during the flathead era. Where to draw it is up to the person doing the production on the project. I'd settle for 8BA myself but others might like the 59 type block. Make a 59 type casting that could be set up for machine capability for either 21 stud or 24 would give more choices for those folks and keep production casting to a minimum. Something else to think about anyway. |
05-11-2017, 03:49 PM | #90 |
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Re: New block
All of the various flathead un-cracked blocks are hard to find. ESPECIALLY the 21 stud variety. I would wager that if you were to start looking for any good flathead block today, you would most likely find a 24 stud one. IF you found any at all.
Therefore, I would hope that 21 stud block will end up in the final casting process. |
05-11-2017, 04:14 PM | #91 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-11-2017, 04:25 PM | #92 |
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Re: New block
When did the cam position and the valve angles change? Would the later valve angles cause any issues in a 21 stud engine - valve to head clearance, etc?
I remember this being discussed here, with Ford drawings and etc, but didn't retain it because it didn't affect what I am doing (so far). Wish I had now. |
05-11-2017, 04:36 PM | #93 |
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Re: New block
The valve angles changed in the post war production with the 59 series. It may have happened during the war but I'd bet it was with the tool up for the 59A in 1945. As far as changes are concerned, Ford made sure that tooling for relieving the chambers around the valves was available to the dealers. This way the prewar heads could be used on the post war blocks. The tooling was just a small jig with a cutter tool.
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05-11-2017, 08:00 PM | #94 |
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Re: New block
Me (as a performance and race builder) would think about the following -- just to kick it around:
1) Thicker deck surface - like 1/2" - with the bosses for stud locations 2) Thicker or better engineered main webs - especially the middle one. 3) Ability to configure your core boxes for a 3 or a 5 main lower end. 4) Improve the oiling system a bit (galley design) - such that it is easy to put a full-flow filter on it and have 100% filtered oil to everything. 5) Provide the block in a non-relieved state - makes it possible for the Ardun guys to use it (or other OHV designs) . . . and plenty of guys don't use reliefs anyway. 6) Improve the intake port and bowl design for better flow. Think about press in bronze guides (like the flathead Cadillac) - instead of the guides we have today. They make a mess of the port floor and have a lot of slop in their fitment. 7) Improve the exhaust port - add a cast in divider in the middle, better flow for all, but same flange on the outside 8) Consider the ability to bore to 3.5" - I believe we can still seal the chambers at that diameter. 9) Consider an aluminum block with steel liners. I would love to be able to make a lighter weight flathead. 10) I think folks like the 59AB pan and water pump setup the best, but maybe there is a way to make the block such that you could bolt on a 59AB 1/2 bell - and run the 59AB style pan. The biggest area to figure out will be the rear main cap (so the pan can seal). Okay - some off the hip thoughts! |
05-11-2017, 08:25 PM | #95 |
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Re: New block
too bad no one can find the sand molds for the French blocks..
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05-11-2017, 08:36 PM | #96 |
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Re: New block
The more I think about it, the more I like "Tod"'s original idea for an 8BA block. If you want the back end to be pre-49 style, there are lots of Merc and Ford truck bellhousings out there. The fronts are similar enough that guys have been "mixing and matching" cams, front covers, and distributors for years. The one thing mentioned that might be nice is the provisions for both 21 and 24 stud configurations. It will be a pretty small sacrifice for the guys wanting early 21 stud with head mounted water pumps to give up poured babbitt bearings and to run water pump block off plates, which could be configured to mimic the front of an early block. Basically a 21 stud 8BA.
Other than that, I'll defer to "Bored&Stroked"s list of improvements since he's been around the block (pun intended) a time or two. To go to all of this effort without incorporating some obvious improvements would be foolhardy. I just realized that I have talked myself into precisely "Tod"'s original position. I guess he must be right! Last edited by tubman; 05-11-2017 at 08:48 PM. |
05-11-2017, 08:44 PM | #97 |
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Re: New block
Good for you Todd I love it when somebody tells me I can't do something or just drive me harder there's no doubt my mind that you can get the job done !
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05-12-2017, 07:03 AM | #98 |
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Re: New block
Are the 21 stud and 24 stud blocks basically the same externally? If the stud holes are the only difference that matters I can easily make 2 configurations and make both.
It would be nice to get my hands on blue prints. I can start this any time. Actually, I can start without blue prints and probably will, but prints always help with accuracy. Tod |
05-12-2017, 07:05 AM | #99 |
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Re: New block
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05-12-2017, 07:14 AM | #100 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
I also thing increasing coolant capacity as much as possible by kicking out the jacket wall near the valve springs and on the outside wall, and under the deck area. The outside needs to consider the exhaust manifolds in the equation. Tod |
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05-12-2017, 07:46 AM | #101 |
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Re: New block
Tod,
Blueprints may be available from the Benson Ford Research cCnter. I am not sure but others on this forum will know for sure. |
05-12-2017, 07:59 AM | #102 |
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Re: New block
Tod, good luck with your project and thank you for stepping up to the plate to hopefully make this happen. I personally won't need a new block in what's left of my life time, but if we hope to keep future generations interested in the Flathead engine, someone's gonna need to make this happen.
When I rebuilt a '35, 21 stud engine, that had an early failure of a press-on fiber timing gear, I was told it was impossible to replace that gear without first removing the cam. I took this on as a challenge and successfully figured how this could be done and did it. This was nowhere near the challenge you will face, but the same principle applies, nothing is really impossible.
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05-12-2017, 08:54 AM | #103 |
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Re: New block
There was a guy named "Ray" (user "Flat32") on the "Flathead Ford V8 ... 1932-1953 Forum" who has done a lot of preliminary work on this (cutting up blocks, making cad drawings, etc.). If Tod doesn't already know about him, he probably should. I don't go over there much anymore, and am not really familiar with most of the guys. Are any of you familiar with this guy? He has a steel full-fendered '32 with a fuel injected flathead (I think it's 268") that runs in the twelves, so he's got to know what he's doing. If no one else has better information, I'll try to track him down.
Last edited by tubman; 05-12-2017 at 07:32 PM. |
05-12-2017, 10:58 AM | #104 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
In my opinion the main reason the Ford flathead had the large diameter guide was for access to machine the lifter bores. Installing the valves as an assembly was an added production bonus in my opinion. Cadillac simplified the block machining by making the lifter bores removable, if I remember correctly. -Andy
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05-12-2017, 01:20 PM | #105 |
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Re: New block
Cylinder heads are also somewhat of a limiting factor on bore size and some on overall width too if you still want things to look symmetrical utilizing OEM or aftermarket heads. Basically it just has to look good and somewhat original with them on there. If the heads are changed to fit better, the design may lose some of its popularity. That would put it back into a proprietary situation.
Valve bowls & port design have some limitations with the water jacket dimensions but a different way of machining for guides could be a big help in that respect. Some folks may prefer the OEM modular valve arrangement and some may not. The Big Cad V8 is like a 337 in size. Having the exhaust come out the top simplified the block design but complicated a lot of other things too. Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-12-2017 at 01:26 PM. |
05-12-2017, 01:46 PM | #106 |
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Re: New block
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05-12-2017, 01:50 PM | #107 |
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Re: New block
Not sure how to spell His last name. Roy Federousky, but he's a close friend Of JWl's and has a web site here someplace with dozens of pics of his projects.
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05-12-2017, 02:52 PM | #108 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-12-2017, 03:45 PM | #109 |
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Re: New block
A while back there was ,some where I have a pic ,its in one of the Aussie hot up books by I the guy who is making the twin engined streamliner Mike Davidson.
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05-12-2017, 04:57 PM | #110 |
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Re: New block
Aftermarket types vary in all sorts of ways. Some were made billet style so they had to be two pieces bolted together. Ford's design was more for coolant flow velocity than for capacity. The 8BA design was the culmination of all of there flow control tactics with the longer/larger ports at the rear and smaller ones at the front so that it would force more flow towards the rear of the block, then after passing into the head it had to all come forward to the front mounted outlets to the radiator.
Barney Navarro had an interesting explanation of how some race engines were set up with a small collector soldered to copper tubes that was inserted into the block to funnel some of the water pump flow at the front and force it to go to the back and middle of the block on the engines built prior to the 8BA era. The 8BA design sort of eliminated the need for that. Its more about the velocity of the flow and how much gets to what location than it is about volume of flow. |
05-12-2017, 05:08 PM | #111 |
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Re: New block
My Mike Davidson Flatattack 8BA style heads hold a combined six quarts (1-1/2 gallons) more coolant than stock. Think 4-1/4" studs. He's also doing them in an old KONG configuration. Good stuff!
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05-12-2017, 06:19 PM | #112 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Thanks; I think that's the guy. I knew he had a "mittel-europa" type of name, but all I could come up with was Ray Manzaryk, but I think he was a member of the "Doors". Tubman |
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05-12-2017, 06:45 PM | #113 |
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Re: New block
Tod another guy u could call would be Dave Tatom in mt. Vernon Washington. if u wanted ideas on how to improve the block without compromising the use of lemon and aftermarket parts that already exist.
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05-12-2017, 07:12 PM | #114 |
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Re: New block
Impressive abilities.
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05-13-2017, 10:10 AM | #115 |
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Re: New block
Flow dynamics is a part of engineering that I should have had a better education on instead of playing around with the damn helicopters but it is interesting to touch upon now and then. Ford's engineers had a long time to play with the dynamics of it and their changes ended with the 8BA series. They wanted cool water to flow through there at a rate that wouldn't choke up the radiator or gather too much heat (not too slow and not too fast). The more coolant you have in there, the slower the pumps will be able to move it. It's a balancing act to move coolant through both the engine and the radiator. Flatheads always had large radiators but having two pumps and two separate cooling systems with a common radiator made that a requirement.
A lot of cooling problems were due to too much casting sand and core wire being stuck inside the block after the casting process. They got as much out as their process would allow but some blocks really had it stuck in there. My hand me down 1951 Mercury was purchased by my Pop when it only had about 15K miles on it with no major trips to the shop. One of my uncles did a ring job on it in the late 50s around 1957. I did the next overhaul on it in the 80s. I took the block to a Redi-Strip shop and he put it in his tank. The tank had a screen to catch all the contaminants that came out. He took a large size coffee can full of sand and wire out of there. This motor never once had heating problems that I can recall other than bad water pump and hose replacements. We rodded the radiator in 1973 and it was still clean at overhaul. It runs real cool now. |
05-13-2017, 10:22 AM | #116 |
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Re: New block
From what I've seen most (if not all) of the cooling issues on flatheads are core sand and wire in the blocks and/or radiator problems. Clean blocks with good water pumps and a good radiator just don't have cooling problems. If anything they run to cool without thermostats!
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05-13-2017, 03:43 PM | #117 |
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Re: New block
Spent some time with my dad this afternoon tearing down more of the 8BA. Need to get the rest of the valves out so I can pull the cam and oil pump. The one piston is stuck pretty hard but I did not try to get it out yet. The rest of the block looks very solid.
Once I get it torn down enough I will begin some basic measuring to start modeling it and figuring out a casting strategy. Tod |
05-13-2017, 03:55 PM | #118 |
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Re: New block
Your getting to the typical fun parts. I've had to break up pistons to get them out. Valves are always a chore.
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05-13-2017, 03:57 PM | #119 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
If I want to offer a 21 stud version, will the same basic block do the job? Tod |
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05-13-2017, 04:14 PM | #120 |
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Re: New block
i approve of your effort.
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05-13-2017, 05:02 PM | #121 | ||
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Re: New block
Quote:
The next thing I do is pry each valve open and prop it open with a 7/16 diameter wood dowel (or just a bolt if no one's watching). Then i turn the engine upside down and tap the lifters up away from the cam. When that's done now the cam will slide out. The lifters will slide out the bottom of the bores when the cam is out, giving you more room to work on the guides. Then I knock each valve guide down .100 or so with a valve guide driver like this That makes it possible to get the guide retaining clips out without a lot of drama. When you have the clips out you can either drive the valve assembly up out of the block from the bottom or pry them out with a pickle fork. Real stuck guides can be a headache. I've cut a few valve heads off with big bolt cutters so I can beat directly on the guide with a large drift. Some of the valve stems can be cut in the valley with bolt cutters, the end valves don't have enough access to reach the stem with the bolt cutters. Edit - Looked at your photos again, you have the straight stem valves and one piece guides, that will allow you to pull the valves out of the guides and make all that much easier. Quote:
'37 21 stud blocks look just like 59A blocks on the outside with a few exceptions. 37 and earlier blocks have 4 bulges in the pain rails where core plugs are installed, but that would only matter to a show car restorer. 32 to 36 blocks are very different on the front wall because of the lack of waterpumps in the block. There's just a lot less iron there, especially on the right bank. I can see that difference from 15 feet away when a car has the hood open. That doesn't make it unusable, just visually different and requires block off plates, how important that is is a personal matter to the owner. 8BAs have a different intake bolt pattern, with fewer bolts, but I think the same casting would work. The bottom row of the 21 stud pattern limits the bore dia to about 3.188, maybe a little more. I understand the 24 stud change was made to allow the bores to be enlarged to accept sleeves in '38. If I was to try to build a big bore 21 stud as a one off I'd ask you to move the bottom row of holes .125 or so then either try to get a set of Sharp heads made with the holes offset or plug and redrill a set of heads myself. But that would be a PITA for production parts, and require dealing with 2 suppliers. Maybe you're interested in making V8 heads too? A 24 stud waterpump head would make that all easier Questions for the forum - 8BAs have different flywheels, they are much deeper than the pre 49 flywheels. Can you put a pre 49 flywheel on an 8BA crank and use a pre 49 starter? What oil pan would you put on an 8BA block to put in a pre war car like my 36PU? What clearance problems would arise from that? What oil pump would you use? What bellhousings are available to do this swap and make the engine and trans line up same as original, and will the front motor mounts work? Will the 35-up breathers work on an 8BA, the scoop on the fuel pump stand and the breather in the front of the oil pan? I wouldn't want to put an 8BA draft tube in my intake manifold. Last edited by Yoyodyne; 05-13-2017 at 05:10 PM. |
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05-13-2017, 05:15 PM | #122 | |
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Re: New block
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05-13-2017, 06:03 PM | #123 |
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Re: New block
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05-13-2017, 06:03 PM | #124 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-13-2017, 06:46 PM | #125 |
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Re: New block
Tod
Yes the 24 stud block is a derived from the 21 stud block because of it increase in bore size. the stud at the center of the lower cylinder bore was too close to the bore. so it was re moved and 2 studs were installed. If you put a 21 stud head on the 24 stud block most of the bolts/studs will fit. All you have to d is make provisions for this stud. Then users can drill and tap it.Problem solved. Several years ago I cutup a block and looked inside, very interesting. I have a junk block you can have, for just this purpose. So does most people. |
05-13-2017, 07:11 PM | #126 | |
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Re: New block
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Tod |
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05-13-2017, 07:17 PM | #127 |
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Re: New block
There were several tools made that really speed up the process of removing crusty valves. KD made a good one to pull the valves but it is easier if you have a good tool to yank the horse shoe clip out with. The puller will then just pull the valve assembly right out. I use the All Power tools to do most of them but I still have to use the KD tool on some. All Power made an excellent clip puller and a wedge tool that forced the valve up by whacking at the wedge with a slide hammer. There are other tools available that work too but those are the best I've found so far.
On 21 stud differences: If a person sticks to the later 37/38 21 stud design, it is very close to the 24 stud that followed. The early ones had bolts that went through the tappet galley on through the main cap to bolt them main caps on with nuts on the bottom side and there were different size main bearings on some. I think an 8BA type would work for some since it can be adapted with the Mercury and truck half bells but you have to use the Mercury or truck type oil pan too. Others still might want the early block type with the integral half bell on the back and use the early type vented oil pans to make them look more authentic. I'm fortunate that I don't have to make those decisions. They aren't easy to make. Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-13-2017 at 07:26 PM. |
05-13-2017, 07:30 PM | #128 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...lve+centerline |
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05-13-2017, 10:08 PM | #129 |
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Re: New block
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05-14-2017, 06:40 AM | #130 |
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Re: New block
Great info I'm getting here. Contacted by flat32 with offer to help. This will surely happen.
Tod |
05-14-2017, 07:45 AM | #131 |
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Re: New block
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05-14-2017, 07:50 AM | #132 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
If these two guys work together - now THAT would be awesome! I'm willing to help with any performance ideas/enhancements that you're willing to consider. I believe a lot of improvements could be made - some major, some minor (but convenient) and some that would be for the high-performance market only. Let's ALL do this! D |
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05-14-2017, 07:55 AM | #133 |
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Re: New block
Tod,
I'm not very familiar with the early blocks but the later ones always seemed to crack between the water jacket opening and the threaded stud/bolt hole. It has been quite a while but it seems the opening was a triangle shape and very close to the threaded hole. Seems that a round or drilled water jacket hole could prevent this. Mike. |
05-14-2017, 07:59 AM | #134 |
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Re: New block
It's really neat to see a racer doing this, aiming to make a superior part, not just a serviceable replacement.
Price check dept - There are 3 French blocks on ebay ATM for $3100.00 each from SoCal Speed shop. |
05-14-2017, 08:04 AM | #135 |
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Re: New block
I have been away from flatheads for years and do not remember if the French blocks were stronger or they were just available NOS blocks.
Mike. |
05-14-2017, 08:26 AM | #136 |
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Re: New block
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05-14-2017, 08:39 AM | #137 |
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Re: New block
Here is the E-Pay Linc.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-ST...mIaiyg&vxp=mtr The stage 1 is with the governor pad removed but no major porting done. These were the ones imported in mass as surplus through a guy in Houston. San Fransisco Flatheads, SoCal Speed Shop SF NorCal, and Vern Tardel all got into that stash but it won't last. It's a limited supply by now. Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-14-2017 at 08:46 AM. |
05-14-2017, 12:08 PM | #138 |
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Re: New block
Too much talking, too little casting......
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05-14-2017, 12:37 PM | #139 |
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Re: New block
My mistake - the Ebay blocks are $3199.99
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05-14-2017, 01:48 PM | #140 |
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Re: New block
Wow has this turned around... for the better.
Tod check out this thread; https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthrea...6253&showall=1 Looks like he has been working up a 3D drawing of the 59a. |
05-14-2017, 03:57 PM | #141 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-14-2017, 04:28 PM | #142 |
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Re: New block
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05-14-2017, 04:38 PM | #143 |
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Re: New block
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05-14-2017, 04:42 PM | #144 |
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Re: New block
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05-14-2017, 04:45 PM | #145 |
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Re: New block
Be CAREFUL here, guys! If I remember correctly, he created drawings from pictures that he solicited. If so, that accomplishes nothing! Quite the accomplishment, for sure, but not the way to "reverse-engineer" a new block. That's kind'a how the Ruskies built our B-29, bullet holes and all. DD
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05-14-2017, 04:48 PM | #146 | |
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Re: New block
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05-14-2017, 05:01 PM | #147 | |
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Re: New block
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There will still be a lot of work to do even with a good model. Tod |
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05-14-2017, 07:31 PM | #148 |
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Re: New block
That link does not show flat32's work. That was part of flysafe's early work in Portugal, which he has suspended. He and I were communicating on that one for purely a rough model. Nothing compared to flat32's accuracy.Totally different purpose in mind.
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05-14-2017, 07:36 PM | #149 | |
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Re: New block
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How do I get signed up to that flathead forum you are on Russ? The one that asks what year they quit making V8s in Canada? No matter what I answer I can't get in. Figure there may be some in there that would be interested. Tod |
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05-14-2017, 09:24 PM | #150 |
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Re: New block
If you convert the STL file will it be accurate enough for you? I can read STL files and save them as a single SW or IGES solid. Or STEP. Can read other file types as well, if you have it in another format.
Last edited by Yoyodyne; 05-14-2017 at 09:36 PM. |
05-14-2017, 09:37 PM | #151 |
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Re: New block
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05-14-2017, 09:46 PM | #152 |
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Re: New block
Solid Edge.
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05-14-2017, 10:23 PM | #153 |
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Re: New block
I know the blue prints are available From Ford, because several people here have them. Just check with Ford, they were very helpful when I was there back in the late 80's.
You know, trying to plese everybody with all the variations of this block, might lead to no block at all. Besides, it won't be an original anyway. I wish you well. |
05-15-2017, 12:28 PM | #154 |
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Re: New block
I agree with Ron on this. I won't discount any person's abilities to do this but that's not the issue here. I would settle for what ever is produced regardless of my own wants and needs. Better one type than none at all. This is a monumental challenge and one that would put the flathead back on the map.
Production hasn't been successfully done since 1991. Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-15-2017 at 12:33 PM. |
05-15-2017, 01:07 PM | #155 |
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Re: New block
Just a reminder of core complexity.
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05-15-2017, 01:11 PM | #156 |
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Re: New block
That's an interesting picture!
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05-15-2017, 01:21 PM | #157 |
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Re: New block
Whats really amazing is that Henry got it done 85 years ago
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05-15-2017, 01:40 PM | #158 |
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Re: New block
You might want to talk to John Lawson, he wrote the book "Flathead facts" probably knows more about these blocks than all the rest of us put together.
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05-15-2017, 01:57 PM | #159 |
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Re: New block
Things are under way. Thanks to Ray for the model he sent over. I'm not sure how much I can/will use but it is there for reference if nothing else. After getting some other stuff finished up I will be moving on this. Be nice to have a casting by the end of the year.
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05-15-2017, 01:59 PM | #160 |
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Re: New block
No wonder there is so much sand and wire hiding in our blocks. I agree, that's a very interesting photo.
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05-15-2017, 02:20 PM | #161 |
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Re: New block
Found a slightly bigger, better res version of that image:
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05-16-2017, 12:10 AM | #162 |
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Re: New block
No help at all from me. Just want to say this is the most interesting thread I've read in a long time! I wish you well in this endeavor Tod.
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05-16-2017, 03:25 PM | #163 |
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Re: New block
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05-16-2017, 05:16 PM | #164 |
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Re: New block
I was able to look over Ray's model and have decided that I will be making a model from scratch myself. There are a lot of surfaces that I don't need and many that did not translate over to my Surfcam so I will need to do far too much work editing and trying to see through everything to get what I can possibly use. It will be better and easier to start back where I left off. Many thanks to Ray for his trying to help me. His model is really nice. But to do what I am planning I need to have it done a certain way.
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05-16-2017, 05:22 PM | #165 |
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Re: New block
Tod, You must be a patient, determined, detail-oriented man! Thanks for the regular up-dates!
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05-17-2017, 07:11 AM | #166 |
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Re: New block
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05-17-2017, 05:11 PM | #167 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
My plan is to make different cores for the front to make either version. There will be options for different water jackets also. That will allow me to make either block. Tod |
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05-17-2017, 08:50 PM | #168 |
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Re: New block
I wish you well, I have a new intake port i'd like to share with you, but that migh e just too uch.
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05-18-2017, 05:37 AM | #169 |
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Re: New block
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05-18-2017, 05:43 AM | #170 |
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Re: New block
One thing that I haven't seen offered up yet as an improvement is priority pressurized oiling to the crank journals. One person somewhere suggested an oil galley through the lifter bores. My block is being dipped right now and I haven't had time to go over the oiling system.
Is full pressure, filtered oiling, good with everyone? Tod |
05-18-2017, 06:35 AM | #171 |
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Re: New block
Yes please!
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05-18-2017, 08:56 AM | #172 |
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Re: New block
Might be nice to have inlet and outlet fittings for the filter down near the pan rail or somewhere out of the way like that, if that's easy to do, it would eliminate hoses draped over the bellhousing.
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05-18-2017, 12:57 PM | #173 |
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Re: New block
Ford had a very odd oiling system for the 85/95/100 HP V8 engines but it wasn't all that out of place during that era. Where the oil pump pressure port interface is up in the bottom of the block, there is a little oil cavity with one feed port going up to the main feed galley and one going down to the rear main. This is why many folks mention 95% oiling due to that passage to the main since it is the only feed going down there and on to the rear rod crank pin. The rear cam journal is sort of oiled by the cavity that houses the oil pump idler gear.
Ford had oiling for the big Lincoln 337 tappets but the passenger car version had hydraulic lifters so it needed pressure to each unit. I guess Ford's engineers didn't feel that lubrication for the large diameter hollow tappets was all that necessary since there was plenty of windage off the crank and the tappet bores are relatively shallow. Most 100% filtration set ups out there plug the normal oil pump port then add a new port on the pump body that exits the oil pan to get piped to the filter. The pressure then exits the filter and is piped back to the gallery on the back of the block so it will still oil all the necessary items. 100% filtration could be taken into account and resto guys could modify the existing filtration components to work for it so it would "look original". The Rodder guys could use what ever filtration set up they wanted to plumb in there. Even Small block Chevy engines used the partial main bearing bypass system so It's not uncommon to keep it that way but the person doing the alteration for partial bypass has to open a new port at the back of the block then plug the port between the oil pump flow passage and the main feed passage to the galley tube. This was what was done during the war in order to install an oil cooler system since a lot of these motors were installed in personnel carriers and armored cars. The 59 series blocks still have the little unopened pad or boss back there where the port was opened up to the oil pump feed passage. Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-18-2017 at 01:08 PM. |
05-18-2017, 04:36 PM | #174 |
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Re: New block
I'll see what I can do about the oiling, but if I make a galley through the lifter bores it only helps if the lifters used are able to allow oil flow all the way through. I don't think stock lifters allow that, do they? I may have to make a galley so that when the lifter bores are cut it cuts into the galley some, allowing oil to pass along the side of the lifter. Kind of like the Clevelands were.
Not sure yet how I will do all three mains. The cam journals can be oiled from the top. A boss above each journal is drilled down through a top/center galley and then plugged with a 1/8 NPT plug. Tod Last edited by Tod; 05-18-2017 at 06:21 PM. |
05-18-2017, 06:23 PM | #175 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-18-2017, 06:34 PM | #176 |
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Re: New block
There are all sorts of cam followers out there. OEM were hollow non adjustable types. The Johnson adjustables were aftermarket and some are hollow and some are not. There have been every sort of tappet tried by hot rodders. From the mushroom type to the locked roller types. Most all survived without further oiling but some created a lot of wear to the bores.
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05-18-2017, 09:43 PM | #177 |
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Re: New block
Tod oil the mains first then continue up to the cam a reversal from stock. I do this on my race engines. Using the side oiler idea could get this accomplished but is it a lot of extra work for a very good improvement?
Ron |
05-18-2017, 09:55 PM | #178 |
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Re: New block
I agree with hotcoupe. I personally like the 46-48 have a couple myself. I buy up anything 59A-B I can find
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05-18-2017, 10:30 PM | #179 |
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Re: New block
Tod, I am aware of your 351C block. Didn't know you were involved with the Genesis and Pond FE blocks. Those are all excellent pieces and I applaud your talented effort.
My thoughts are get the bore size and air flow characteristics better then build a stronger block around those parameters. Flathead intake ports do not flow well due to the lack of a good short side radius. A gently curved intake port that maintains the stock inlet location would do wonders. Eliminating the removable guide and making the ramp up to the backside of the intake valve real nice and smooth would really provide a performance kick in the pants. Bigger bores helps everything and I don't see any reason not to take advantage of that free power. I'm talking 3 3/8" as a starting point. Maybe all the way to 3 1/2" is possible? The end exhaust ports in the French blocks are good. The exhaust valve pockets could be curved towards the port to help even further. In the center just fill that in curve the port walls to direct airflow down and out and do the best you can with that. No heat riser is needed. We can drill if necessary. A few other thoughts: extra material around cam tunnel to provide for larger cam diameters in race engines if one chooses that. Original bell pattern along with the SBF pattern to facilitate easy trans updates. (Probably the single best performance Mod you can do for and early Ford) Remember with a Flathead Ford with performance improvements for $2500 is a bargain. After all your getting the equivalent of good block and heads as in a souped up OHV. |
05-18-2017, 10:47 PM | #180 |
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Re: New block
I don't think adding oil to the lifter bores is a practical idea, and will offer nothing to the reliability or performance to the engine. Considering the fact that under stock conditions lifter bore ware in negligible. In a competition engine the side clearance of the rod bearings is increased to provide more oil flow to keep the bearing cool. This added oil is more than enough to lubricate the cam and cylinders. If you want to make performance improvements to the block, they can b e done by just increasing the material in the cylinders to allow a 3 3/8 bore size. now a person can buy one non stock item that will produce aprox a 40% gain in low end torque. It will bring the CR up to 8:1 with stock heads and the stock cam and valves will supply enough AF for reasonable economical operation. For the racer or someone that want;s alittle more power the water jackets between the intake ports can be eliminated, often wounded why they were ther in the first place. This alone will allow the port to be improved allowing more flow. As for the exhaust the end ports exit into a 90 deg turn. Just put a radius here. we can do the rest. All thes mods have no affect on the stock use of the block, but now we have one block that can have 21 or 24 studs on it. an increse in displacement at a low cost and the need for expensive crank assys can be left to the racers. I have a 280ci Stock engine that provides mor torque than you'll ever need in normal operation. I'm sure some others could add to this. At 84. I doubt I;ll ever see one. I wish you well.
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05-19-2017, 07:27 AM | #181 |
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Re: New block
What Henry said!
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05-20-2017, 07:15 AM | #182 |
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Re: New block
Tod, I have one comment and then a question.
So the comment which is actually quite obvious when looking at the Flathead bottom end. Basically logic tells me that the center main is carrying more than it's fair share of the load. After all it is influenced by both the front four and the back four cylinders. It is my understanding that the old NOVI V8's of Indianapolis fame were 3 main bearing engines. Extra effort went into keeping that center bearing in place, round and cool. If a performance Flathead needs any oiling modification at all I would be looking at extra oil to that center main to keep it cool. The next part is more of a question pertaining to the type of block material you'll be designing for. I'm assuming this is a cast iron project. That would be best for the vast majority of consumers I would think. It's only if you decide to foray into the aluminum world that I wonder if you might consider using PTWA to form the cylinder walls with the greatest possible bore diameter? It is my understanding that PTWA is becoming commonplace both in original manufacturing and also "re"- manufacturing. Just a thought I guess thinking out into the future should an aluminum block become a feasible project. |
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05-20-2017, 07:53 AM | #183 |
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Re: New block
I prefer the 59 type block but if you go with the 8BA type, there needs to be some provision for the stabilizer rods on each side for 48 and back vehicles.
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05-20-2017, 08:30 AM | #184 |
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Re: New block
All the blocks have the same basic profile at the rear with the exception of the half bell on earlier engines. Even the 8BA block has enough casting there but it's just not drilled for the rods. Keep in mind that the anti-chatter rods are a pre-war thing and weren't incorporated into the 59A block either but can be installed if needed. I probably should say that the provisions weren't incorporated into the vehicle frames since the block does have the bosses there.
Some of the 4-cylinder aircraft engines I maintain and overhaul have only 3-mains. The center main takes a beating but holds up pretty well as long as the engine is always assembled to new tolerances. These are 360 CID engines and they have an aluminum crankcase cast in halves. All the main bearings are pinned on these and the center pin is usually loose by the time they are due overhaul. Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-20-2017 at 09:03 AM. |
05-20-2017, 08:49 AM | #185 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
I am thinking hard about design changes I want to make on the intake ports and the exhaust as I try to increase bore allowance. in order to make better flow in the ports right under the valves, I was thinking of how I can eliminate the 1.031 valve guide and make the hole for smaller guides, which allows me to open up the port and change the geometry some. But, I need to think ahead to how I will machine the lifter bores. I may need to design a special tool to get that done, something I have had to do on other machining jobs. It was asked that I increase cam tunnel size but no actual size was suggested. The stock radius is 1.10 where the lifter bores cut through. I'm wondering if an additional .09 would suffice. I would then add that .09 to the top side of the lifter bosses to keep the same length of lifter bore. As I get deeper into my design I'm sure I will be posting about where I am and what input I can get back. I will probably show pictures of various areas so that people have an idea what I am talking about. As it stands, I have the front pretty much modeled up and the crankcase, rear, decks, and cylinders. I will not do much with the top until I get the ports figured out. Tod |
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05-20-2017, 09:10 AM | #186 |
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Re: New block
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05-20-2017, 09:28 AM | #187 |
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Re: New block
It may be that I'm wrong. I always believed that chatter rods were just a band-aid to cover the fact that Ford did not have a decent rear main seal.
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05-20-2017, 10:17 AM | #188 |
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Re: New block
The rods are just stabilizers to keep the whole drive train from moving around under rapid torque loads. That closed drive rear axle will push the whole engine around if the mounts get worn or deteriorated.
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05-20-2017, 11:18 AM | #189 |
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Re: New block
Other places I have posted this project seem inclined to the opinion that this is a huge waste of time. If I can't sell a few hundred there is no sense in doing it.
Tod |
05-20-2017, 11:23 AM | #190 |
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Re: New block
If you can offer blocks in the price range you are thinking, there should be no problem with sells!
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05-20-2017, 11:29 AM | #191 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
A new block will fill a huge void in my opinion. I'll be buying one too. |
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05-20-2017, 04:56 PM | #192 |
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Re: New block
Tod
Some folks may have a large stash of old blocks and may never need one in their lifetime. Then there are the other folks that have to scour the country for a crusty old boat anchor to find it cracked after they tear it down. I certainly don't think it's a waist of time. We haven't had a person as serious about a project like this as you are and you have more where-with-all than any previous folks to actually accomplish it. It has been disappointing to see several outfits attempt this in the past 10 or 15 years with no real results yet. I don't know if any racers would be interested since antique racing has rules about whether its OEM or not. Folks that do love the old flat motors like me would be interested. I like my stockers but I also like my hot rods. I'd rather bang a new one around than flog the hell out of an OEM one. Besides, I still have a set NOS standard size pistons that I may never get to use unless I completely sleeve an old block out. That stuff is getting expensive too. I probably would have purchased a French block if the damn things weren't all relieved! There will always be nay sayers out there but you be the one that actually knows whether it's worth it or not. |
05-20-2017, 05:01 PM | #193 |
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Re: New block
I would like a new 21 stud, 36 LB pattern engine.
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05-20-2017, 05:06 PM | #194 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
My personal opinion is that a flathead block has a larger market than a 351C block, but that's just my perspective because racing seems to use windsor style blocks and cranks. Your first post of calling it an 8BA put me off a bit, because the hot rod world seems to revolve around 59A blocks, but I understand what you are doing better now. What is your timeline for a few hundred sold? I think you could sell a couple hundred 36LB replacements alone. |
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05-20-2017, 05:12 PM | #195 |
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Re: New block
That's an issue, and that may be a distorted picture. I bought 3 of those stashed blocks, 2 in complete "known good, running when pulled" condition, and one in "known to be good, stashed under the workbench 20 years ago, bored and honed but never used" condition. When cleaned and inspected as thoroughly as a modern build requires, all 3 were junk and beyond repair.
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05-20-2017, 05:19 PM | #196 |
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Re: New block
Great thread. Tod; amazing desire and work, sir.
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05-20-2017, 06:02 PM | #197 |
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Re: New block
Yoyodyne
I have two usable 8BA blocks and one that's cracked but repairable. Both usable ones will need bore jobs with substantial cuts in both so I know what your stating there. It's always a big ??? as to whether I'd get a good one or all are useless. I've built several engines with what they call acceptable cracks in the center bolt bore of the deck and so far gotten away with it but it sure would be nice to be able to get one that is Friggin NEW! I wouldn't know how to act with no cracks, major cleaning, or major machine work to deal with. That's almost a wet dream! |
05-20-2017, 06:03 PM | #198 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
What is the major difference between the 8BA and 36LB? I'd like to sell as many as possible, obviously, and I have no real time frame. 5 years? Once I have the basic design I can alter it to do what will sell. Tod |
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05-20-2017, 06:19 PM | #199 |
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Re: New block
The The LB block was the first major departure from the first generation. There are no ports for water pumps in the block. There are just ports for inlet where the engine mounts bolt on and form the inlet stub as part of the mount. The crank journals were set up to be replaceable. They made the first venting for the block at the oil pan rail. There is a lot of difference from 59 series and 8BA. These are desired for restorers of 35 and 36 cars or even earlier since they were the last pump in head block. One other thing to add. The mains were changed in 1935 so as not to have the bolt that went all the way through from the valve chamber.
You might scope out this thread since it has photos. It's the Official Ford Barn ID thread. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...5301&showall=1 Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-20-2017 at 06:33 PM. |
05-20-2017, 10:30 PM | #200 |
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Re: New block
AS for the lifter bores. Normally, we use Chevy valves when using a cam with more than .350 Lift. This is because you can't get the Johnson extra long lifters. The longer valve stem keeps the adjusting screw tight in the lifter. However, The smaller bass circle put's the lifter down in the bore so it 's difficult to adjust. So we cut the top of the lifter down a bit. as for the cam bearings. Yes alittle more meat in this area will allow it to be bored out for a larger dia cam bearing. This allows for a higher lift valve with out reducing the Base circle. I covered some of this in my book.
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05-21-2017, 08:43 AM | #201 |
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Re: New block
Couple More Options, Ideas to Consider:
1) Making a 21 stud version would be the most valuable if the outside of the block really looked like an original - so that somebody taking a pretty serious look at it in a car could not tell the difference. As others noted - this demands that the front of the block have the necessary configuration that a "pump in head" 21 stud would have. (Lots of little nuances here). 2) The internals of the 21 Stud could mimic the 24 stud - such that you could run a 24 stud crankshaft, rods, bearings, etc. - in it. I would deliberately setup the mains to support the later cranks - due to bearing availability. 3) Bores: You would want the 21 stud bores to be at a minimum 3 3/16 inch - such that the later 29A through 8BA rods would fit through the bores. 4) Oil Pan: I have not looked enough at the pan rails to compare 21 stud to 59A to 8BA. I will give this a closer look - but you may have to have some provisions to support different pans and breather setups. A 59x pan does look different than a 32 - 36 pan and the breather systems vary quite a bit. ====================== Back to General Ideas ================ A) Simple is Better for Most: Most folks will want to easily be able to buy/machine/setup a block using all their components. This give them maximum flexibility for both stock and performance applications. B) Design Improvements - Strength and Material Thicknesses: While the above is true, nobody is going to be hurt by better strength in key areas, more material/thicknesses in weak spots, better ports/flow, etc.. So - the key is for the design(s) to support both --- giving us all the BEST of all worlds. (I know, this is the most difficult engineering/design challenge - the more options, the more complex, the more costly to produce). C) Oiling the Lifters: I've seen some talk about pressurized lifter galleys. While I'd love this as "a configurable option" - it may present some real problems for most (if done with one big long galley like many OHV designs). The reason is that the stock lifters and many performance variants are NOT designed for a pressure galley - so many lifter designs will leak pressure (through the lifter). If there was a plug/port to drill out to turn this capability on/off, then the builder of the engine could decide how/when to use it. I would use it for many race situations where I have high lift - and or a lot of 'side load' on the lifter bore (think big roller cam). Tod - be happy to talk about this more, show you a whole range of lifter designs, etc.. D) Priority Main Oiling - 100% filtered: Yes - this would certainly make sense, but would probably require an oil galley down the side of the block - or external lines . . . could be done, but might be a pain. We use external priority main oiling on our Flathead Cadillac Bonneville engine - which has a long galley cast into the side of the block. I do think it is important for the design to include a 100% filtered oil setup - but one that uses the stock 49-53 pump in the stock location . . . as this is what MOST people will run. These blocks will not be approved for Bonneville racing - so there will probably be almost nobody who cares about dry-sump setups. E) Different Oil Pump? - Another idea/option to ponder - is to see if it is possible to redesign the rear main cap to support a SBC style pump - with a 'drive shaft setup' coming from the stock location. Now - this might be total overkill, but I'd sure like to be able to use better quality pumps than we seem to be getting for flatheads these days. (I know - this idea is probably a bit too wild and expensive for most!) F) Intake Ports: There has been a lot of chat about better flowing ports with solid/press-in guides (like the Flathead Cadillac). I think a LOT of improvements could be made here - as long as you solve the bigger issue of how to bore the lifter holes - obviously this is the big pain in the butt portion of the problem. I'd love to see a much better designed intake port, bowl and guide setup - that would be worth the money in itself (for us performance hounds). G) Exhaust Ports: Yes, the challenge in the center is the room that it takes to improve flow. Given the larger bore desires (3.5"), you might consider making the ports "taller" to increase the flow - as you'll have problems going 'wider'. H) Cubic Inches and Performance: We really need more cylinder wall thickness than we have today at 3 3/8" bore -- I'd like to see .220 or so (such that I can go to a 3.5" bore and have good wall thickness for boosted/blown applications). I) Crankshaft Throw Clearance: I'd probably pickup a 4 3/8" stroke SCAT crank and a H-Beam rod - to see how the block and cylinder clearances setup on the bottom end. J) Camshaft Journal Material, Cam Lift and Crankshaft Clearances: Many of us would love to have more material in the front/center CAM bearing areas - so we could use larger bearing diameters for larger lifts. One thing to checkout (with the 4 3/8" crank and rod) is what type of clearances do you have with the cam? How close are you getting to hitting the cam? While I'd love a 'raised cam' design (to clear the crank), this causes all sorts of drama with valve angles, port designs, new cam/crank gears, etc.. Not worth doing . . . but worth at least checking things out in your design. K) Mains 3 or 5: Would be great to have a 5 main block as a potential option. Now - this would only be for guys chasing more serious horsepower levels --> Arduns, blown engines, etc.. There are definite limitations on the available journal sizes for the two "new mains" - given the dimensions of the block -- there is only enough room for a 1/2" to 3/4" side bearing (depending on throw thicknesses on both sides, what type of radius numbers are used in the corners, etc). Obviously this 'market' is much smaller than the guys who want to run normal crankshafts -- but my guess is that the high-end of the market might want this option. L) Main Caps: If you make the block stronger in the main areas (very important), then you should also consider much stronger/better cap designs -- with enough material in the block to support 4 bolt caps - maybe quite wide to spread the clamping load out. (Think after market 4 bolt caps for performance SBC motors). Also, I would get rid of the 'half circle' cap indexing methods in use on the stock engines -- no reason to have these index methods when you can use some more modern methods. Also, by NOT having the semi-circular index methods, would make it a LOT easier to retrofit a full stud-girdle across the bottom end. Guys like me (especially on 3 mains) - will probably design a whole 2.5" or so thick stud girdle that covers the whole pan rail. Having better/easier indexing methods (not 6 half circles bosses) would make this easier. As a matter of fact, boy would I love a stud-girdle 'option' to be cast out of cast iron and available as an option for the block. Beats the hell out of having to fabricate one out of aluminum billet or steel. Okay . . . too much coffee today . . . too many ideas to ponder and I better get to work actually getting something done on my cars - versus pondering the future! Take care and I LOVE this whole thread and project. B&S |
05-21-2017, 11:06 AM | #202 |
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Re: New block
I remember seeing one example of a "whole pan rail" girdle. It's been a while so I can't remember the details of whether it incorporated the caps or if it just surrounded them and augmented structure there. A special pan had to be fabricated but it looked like it was going to beef things up pretty well.
Just about every avenue has been explored before with these engines. They are truly an Icon in the histories of automotive development and racing technology. |
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05-21-2017, 11:11 AM | #203 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
I'm not sure how big you can bore a block with the 21 stud pattern in the deck, not even considering cylinder wall thickness. It might not be much bigger than 3.188 so this would limit the range of bore size possible if the min is near 3.188 and the max is also near 3.188. (Stock bore on 221 CI 21 stud engines is 3.062) Tod - have you spoken to any pro flathead builders yet, have any contacted you? I imagine they would drive a lot of the potential sales. A new block would permit crate engines to be built and sold. |
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05-21-2017, 11:14 AM | #204 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-21-2017, 11:28 AM | #205 |
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Re: New block
Lots of good stuff being posted here! I am plodding along on the design. It is moving along as I have time.
Given that my block may be non-sanctioned by most bodies I am thinking of making the underside metal wall, where the exhaust manifold flanges bolt, a straight flat surface from front to rear. Since it won't help or hurt sanctioning I figured it would add a little coolant capacity and straighten out the flow a little. Opinions? I'm also wondering about port flow improvement. Design will be restricted by the stock diameter (1.031) valve guides. I have decided that I will stick with stock on this so that machining the lifter bores is not driven by special tooling and headaches from smaller diameter guides. I may change my mind if I can get a tool to do it with, say a .750 diameter guide. Anyway, if I stick with stock size the ports are pretty much restricted by the location of the guides. The only solution would be to be able to drop the guide down about .120, but then I would need to drop the spring seat area down the same amount so that the clip will slide around the guide underneath the seat. That "solution" would compress the spring more, though. That might create a problem. Ideas? I'll get back about other points being brought up asap. Tod |
05-21-2017, 12:19 PM | #206 |
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Re: New block
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05-21-2017, 12:23 PM | #207 |
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Re: New block
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05-21-2017, 04:27 PM | #208 |
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Re: New block
I like the idea of keeping the valve/lifter area stock. Some modes to the water jacket in this area will help those that want to search for more power happy. As for the center exhaust port, it's the best flowing port in the engine. Just use a flow bench. The fact that it is used for two cylinders has no affect on flow, as the cylinders don't fire at the same time. In fact, The firing order of the Flatheads fireing order is such that all the end cylinders fire in succession first. Then the center 4 cylinders fire in sequence one side at a time. Now with the proper exhaust manifold you can use this to evacuate the end cylinders. Plus you don't need to make any mods to the block. So leave the center exhaust port alone. Pretty soon we'll get nothing.
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05-21-2017, 05:11 PM | #209 |
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Re: New block
In order to keep a .200 wall thickness for 3.500 bore I would have to Siamese the front two and rear two cylinders in the water jacket. Increasing the bore means less sand between cylinders. The sand in those areas needs to be substantial enough to hold up under the heat and weight of iron during casting. Larger bores will end up with an effect on coolant flow. If I go to .180 wall at 3.5 bore I will have only .14 thickness of sand between cylinders. That is asking for scrap castings. I suppose I could Siamese between them at strategic places from the bottom of the cylinder. Since the deck will be .500 thick instead of .26, there will be added strength up top. But where there is sand between the cylinders I need to make it enough to hold up during casting. I can probably go to 3.9 cylinder wall OD and make it work.
Tod |
05-21-2017, 05:17 PM | #210 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-21-2017, 05:29 PM | #211 |
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Re: New block
Just a thought, you would have more chances of selling a new block that was like a new replacement from Ford. If you can interchange the front and rear cores to cover more years, so much the better. Racing flatheads are great, but the race car builders have been dealing with the stock blocks for a long time. Improvements that are simple to do and don't eat up a lot of R&D keep projects from getting sidelined. JMO, and them Model A engine are pretty cool.
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05-21-2017, 05:35 PM | #212 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
I have been making foundry tooling for 40 years and I will be able to make just about everything with as little pattern work as possible. Tod |
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05-21-2017, 05:45 PM | #213 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Ron |
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05-22-2017, 11:13 AM | #214 |
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Re: New block
I always figured the block would have to grow longer to get a non-siamese cylinder pairing internally. 3.375" was about as big a bore as they ever went with these blocks unless they started cutting the cylinder walls away and installing sleeves. Sleeves would be better if the deck it thicker. The cylinders are the largest amount of support for the top deck.
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05-22-2017, 11:38 AM | #215 |
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Re: New block
Gang, I think the single center exhaust port is inevitable if you're going to run a Flathead Ford. If Tod does the heat riser area sold then a racer could machine that area for extra porting.
I think exhaust flow with some basic improvements will prove to be more than adequate until inlet breathing is vastly improved. Me personally if I were the one calling the final design parameters it would be an 8BA all the way. The 59A style engine could be made with a slightly different set of moulds for the front of the engine. I wouldn't fiddle with the "half bell housing" when there are tons of adapter rings still out there. An 8BA is just a better engine in many ways when thinking in terms of driving and utility. You can make an 8BA look like an earlier engine anyway. I think we would be lucky to have a fully modern interpretation of the most evolved and servicible Flathead design. Maybe down the road an early 21/24 stud hybrid could be developed but for maximum bang for the buck a kick ass 8BA would make a lot of dreams come true. |
05-22-2017, 02:22 PM | #216 |
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Re: New block
I did just a little modeling today, so far. I had some parts that needed an operation in a small machine and I had to do it myself. Then I tore out some 3 phase wiring and reworked the whole mess. Maybe I'll get more done this evening after relaxing the pain away.
Tod |
05-22-2017, 06:03 PM | #217 |
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Re: New block
Question for the forum - What rods would you use with an 8BA style crank w/4" or longer stroke? Would 8BA rods with non floating bearings clear the rest of the motor?
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05-22-2017, 07:28 PM | #218 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Keep up the good work and let me know if I can help you in any way! Dale |
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05-22-2017, 07:35 PM | #219 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
If you could design the port to bowl transition area to handle more flow and make it possible to hand modify the tops of the stock guides to blend into the floor and not create a dead spot - that would be great. Had another sort of wild idea (haven't thought it through), but what if you 'raised the deck' to give you more port volume above the guide? Yes - it would require longer valves - but that is not that big of a deal (just need to source something that works). Pistons wouldn't be a big deal as the long stroke cranks have to move the pin way up anyway - so moving the pin back down would actually be a good thing (not so close or into the ring pack for large strokes). Just thinking out loud here . . . I highly suggest that you pickup JWLs book on performance modifications - he shows a lot of methods of port rework with the stock block . . . many would be worth thinking about for a new block. Also, there is no reason to not go to about a 1.7" intake valve and a 1.6" exhaust --- though with port improvements in the exhaust side, I believe a 1.5" valve would handle all the flow. I definitely would not supply the block with a 'factory relief' - this will make it possible for the high-dollar Ardun crowd to use the block . . . and they'd surely be interested in the 3.5" bore. Keep the ideas flowing gang . . . D |
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05-22-2017, 07:43 PM | #220 |
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Re: New block
For a thread started 17 days ago, and just shy of 10,000 views,and over 200 replies, I'd say there is a lot of interest in somebody casting and supplying new Ford Flathead blocks
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05-22-2017, 08:24 PM | #221 |
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Re: New block
Made some pretty good progress this evening after supper. Most of the outside of the driver's side bank is finished as well as the front face and much of the rear. I messed a bit with the Siamese cylinders on one side to see what that might look like. The idea in my head will probably work. As the OD of the cylinder wall moves towards the bottom of the water jacket, I plan on stepping it down a couple of times. I will probably cut a rectangular window at 2 places after the uppermost diameter to allow as much coolant flow as possible. I will let it flow at the very bottom also so that nothing gets accumulated in any corners.
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05-22-2017, 11:05 PM | #222 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
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05-22-2017, 11:21 PM | #223 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
So why outlaw a new block like Tod's? Old time racers have their stash of (hopefully) good old blocks. But the new young guy looking to join the fun, not so much. Are the powers that be trying to keep the new guy out?! |
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05-23-2017, 12:40 AM | #224 |
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Re: New block
I don't think it is a question of trying to keep the new guy out, rather it is a rule based on not tarnishing what has been done in the past with an OEM block. As you say, not much resembles original in a race engine but if the new racers are to be on the same ball field they shouldn't have the advantage of a "corked bat".
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05-23-2017, 12:56 AM | #225 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
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05-23-2017, 06:57 AM | #226 |
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Re: New block
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Also, imagine how far some would take it - there would be new blocks that are MUCH more competitive in many different classes - would come down to cubic money (and it is already expensive to do any sort of racing). |
05-23-2017, 08:53 AM | #227 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
As far as "not tarnishing what has been done in the past with an OEM block", that has already happened! Back in the '50's and '60's, how many racers had access to a flow bench? Or epoxy to reshape the ports? Or computer modeling of airflow, etc.? Or modern oils? Or electronic ignition? Or aftermarket H-beam rods? Modern technology has always been creeping in as it becomes available. A factory spec aftermarket block would really only add durability to the equation, allowing long time racers the chance to try out those neat tricks they've had in the back of their minds for decades! |
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05-23-2017, 09:44 AM | #228 | ||
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Re: New block
Quote:
Quote:
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05-23-2017, 12:01 PM | #229 |
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Re: New block
Do small block chevies get a asterisk when they use a Dart block with a relocated camshaft and SB2 canted valve cylinder heads?
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05-23-2017, 12:24 PM | #230 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
In the SCTA all "normal" engine classes are broken up by displacement only. You can build it from scratch if you would like, and some have. Only the few vintage classes require original production blocks. That being said I don't think that the demand from the landracing community is what can make this a successful project. I think it will be driven by the restoration and vintage hot rod crowd. Personally I would love to see this happen just for the good of the flathead ford in general. I have done a fair amount of CMM work on 8BA, 59A, & 41 Merc blocks for my racing developments and if I can offer any info I would be glad to help. Andy
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05-23-2017, 01:02 PM | #231 |
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Re: New block
Need I warn, design solely on performance would doom the project. That mistake has already been made. Clearly, some improvements can be made that are not visible, but a 100% original casting holds the greatest promise. I'd not like to see performance be the priority.
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05-23-2017, 03:24 PM | #232 |
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Re: New block
The only way any new replacement flathead block would be allowed to go for a record is if a major rule update was considered by the SCTA. And if such a rule was allowed to be fair to those who run the original Ford blocks from 1953 and earlier it would have to be a new class for the replacement blocks.
Being a person who has set a XF class record at Bonneville using the original Ford flathead block a task thats not easy it took lots of trial and error to figure out how to make something so old hold toghter for such abuse. Allowing a new block into the class would not be fair in any way. Also the vintage engine guys in charge of the rules would never allow such a thing to take place. However there's no problem running the new block in any class based on cubic inches only but it would not be very competitive its just not allowed in the XF class as we know it. Considering there's still plenty of original flathead blocks available the need for a new one for racing I feel is not really needed. If someone wants a new flathead block to run in a racing class that allows such a thing the French flathead block hands down is presently the way to go its affordable and if tuned correctly durable enough to survive. At least that's the way I see it. Ronnieroadster |
05-24-2017, 06:41 AM | #233 |
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Re: New block
I just got my block, heads, and intake back from hot tank cleaning. I did that to see if there are any cracks in it and because I need to take dimensions on some cast features that are obviously different than the blue print. Needless to say, some cast features will be different now due to adding strength to the new design. For example, I am making the pan rail solid, making the webbing between the crank and cam journals 1/2" thick rather than 1/4, and increasing the diameter of the crank and cam journal walls. Over all, I will try to stay faithful to the look.
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05-24-2017, 11:07 AM | #234 |
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Re: New block
Tod, It sounds like you can do this. Personally I am sure that flathead blocks are drying up, they tend to crack between the valves. I would think a call to guys like Ol' Ron, would be very informative. I'm just wondering just how long it will be before all us old Flathead guy's are gone, if the younger generation looses interest in old Flathead stuff? You should go for it if that's your desire. There's always naysayers. I think personally the Ford flathead will be around for at least another 20 years. Perhaps longer? Model A blocks are getting heard to come by also. Do you cast in iron? I never was found of aluminum engines, overheat them one time and most of the time there toast. JMHO
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05-24-2017, 11:09 AM | #235 |
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Re: New block
While everybody seems to be concern with the potential power they can get out of the Block, I look at it for a different application. It would be nice to get a block that would provide exceptional power output, I don't think the Market for that kind of block would affect sales. As the original block can provide a reasonavle amoount of reliability in the 125/ 150 HP range, a new block would have it biggest sales potential if it could provide that at a lower cost. Having built a few street engines I find the 276 to be the most popular. At one time the stock 4" crank was available at a reasonable cost, that's not the case any more. Now the aftermarket Crank assys are available up to 304 ci at about the same price. This big an engine puts a strain on the intake system which just adds more costs. The average guy just wants a reasonably priced engine he can run it his street machine. Now adding extra material in the weak ares The builder caan have a 268 ci engine using all stick components except the pistons. Thus, he gets a stocl looking engine that really pulld the hills and properly tuned get great mileage, and this is where the market is. I just helped a frien on mine ger a stock 8RT running, came out of a school bus. Pulled the heads and freed up a few valves. put a new head gasket on the engine with 8BA heads and fired it up great oil pressure, runs cool on an engine stand, sold for 1200 bucks. Not many of these bargens left. And the finished product, wouldn't cost mich more tham rebuilding an old engine
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05-24-2017, 07:21 PM | #236 |
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Re: New block
Ron if this new block could breathe well enough to provide even .75 hp per cube your 276" street engine would be over 200hp.
I would love to have 200 hp with the Flatty's nice fat torque curve in my little '41 Ford. Heck yes there is a huge untapped market for this block. |
05-24-2017, 07:43 PM | #237 |
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Re: New block
I am amazed at the differences between the blue prints and the block I have. Nothing functional, just locations of webbing and some of the cast geometry. As I near having the externals of my model complete it will mean taking some creative license with some of the shapes. My departures from print and block will be in the direction of increasing strength.
I may be far enough along in a day or so to post a basic screen shot. Tod |
05-24-2017, 07:55 PM | #238 | |
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Re: New block
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05-24-2017, 08:17 PM | #239 |
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Re: New block
This may be a stupid question, but I noticed that the two water pumps I took off of the engine I have do not have openings corresponding to the two bottom water holes on the front of the block. One of the pumps had a hole but it was plugged with a "freeze plug" like plug. The other pump had no hole at all. Why are the two lower holes in the block if they aren't even used?
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05-24-2017, 09:28 PM | #240 |
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Re: New block
Tod, I think they are there for cleaning the casting sand from the block. They serve no other purpose. Many have been fooled by them.
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05-24-2017, 10:01 PM | #241 |
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Re: New block
If they are the holes I think they are, they are the water inlets for 32-36 pump in head engines, and line up with the motor mounts for 32-36. Odd that they would still be there on engines you can't put pump heads on, but maybe they were found handy for removing core sand as Russ said.
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05-24-2017, 10:19 PM | #242 |
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Re: New block
Henry
You make the point for me. If I can get 125 HP from a 268 ci stock engine. Then a built 276 might make 200. It all depends on the new blocks ports. However, If you can get a good reliable 125 from the engine in it's stock 268 displacement. then you open up a very large customer base. Then to racers would get thete block. |
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05-25-2017, 06:00 AM | #243 |
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Re: New block
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05-25-2017, 07:15 AM | #244 |
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Re: New block
Pre '37 motor mounts
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05-25-2017, 09:55 AM | #245 |
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Re: New block
I'm thinking they holes are for hot water heater return. Most of the 8BA series had the return on the right side pump. Left side had the boss but was left unmachined.
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05-25-2017, 05:02 PM | #246 |
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Re: New block
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At this stage I can at least formulate a molding strategy while I proceed to finish the model. I have to finish the external features that are still underway and get to the internals. It would be nice to have a casting in a few months. |
05-25-2017, 07:59 PM | #247 |
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Re: New block
Hey Tod don't burn yourself out, but wow great job.
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05-26-2017, 06:04 AM | #248 |
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Re: New block
Thanks. I will rest as much as I need to. My health doesn't allow me to over-do it these days. Since surviving a massive stroke in 2005 that took a third of the right side of my brain (and a small part of the left side) I am not able to do what I used to do. The seizure meds I have to take now, because of the stroke, have drastically reduced my energy level. I just do what I can as I can now.
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05-26-2017, 12:10 PM | #249 |
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Re: New block
If you have a casting in only a few months, you are truly dedicated to the task. Those who have started this in the last 10 or 15 years or so either never made it to the foundry or it took them years to get there. I suspect they didn't have much previous experience with this type of manufacturing process. It will really be something to see your prototype.
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05-26-2017, 03:31 PM | #250 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
When I first did my own FE project it took me 3 months from the time I started modeling until I had a casting. But I was only working on that. It took me 3 weeks to model a 460 block ready for CNC cutting a pattern for Trickflow. After they made 2 castings, Summit (their parent company) stopped it. Corporate political issues. A little more progress will be made on the model today and over the weekend, as I feel like it, and have time. Tod |
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05-26-2017, 05:10 PM | #251 |
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Re: New block
If someone picks up your block and builds a crate motor available here in OZ. I will buy one immediately.
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05-26-2017, 05:34 PM | #252 |
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Re: New block
There are at least a half dozen builders just here in the states alone that could or should consider the ease of build of a new block. Shops like H&H, Roadrunner Engineering, and even Motor City Flatheads, to name a few, could be contenders even though Motor City is wrapped up with their own project that's been setting on the back burner for a long while. Even the guys that use the French SUMB engines might consider a new 8BA type when they need one. I know I'm interested in a new one. It would make a hell of an AV8 roadster conversion motor and it would be an easy build just having a new block alone. I've seen several flat head friendly machine shops around San Antonio come and go over the years so with new block at least 75% of that problem is gone out the door.
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05-26-2017, 06:37 PM | #253 |
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Re: New block
I'm pretty sure that the Motor City Flathead project is off the table. Shadow Rods took control of that AFAIK, and their website hasn't been updated in a long time. Are they still around?
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05-27-2017, 12:03 AM | #254 |
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Re: New block
A GREAT IDEA! I have read through a lot of this and I am amazed how off center some of the responses have been but I hope a lot of it has been helpful for you. The info requested was for an 8BA block, not earlier blocks, master cyc's, sanctioning by so and so, changes for this reason or the another that would not improve the original 8BA block but for some specific purpose. I'm the poor old slup that just wants to keep the old '49 to '53's on the road and enjoy them. I have an ever increasingly hard time finding a good block.
A full flow or pressure oil system would be a great improvement. Improvements to keep them running cooler. Probably related, keep the blocks from cracking. I would like the improvements made so as many as possible of the original parts could be used. It looks like you have the knowledge and ability to do this . I want to wish you success in this project and your other projects. Scott |
05-27-2017, 08:01 AM | #255 |
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Re: New block
I agree Scott, for the most part a standard 8BA can be outfitted to repower anything all the way back to the '32's.
We must keep this in perspective. A new block until recently was considered an impossible dream. Tod there were long discussions about the feasibility and possibility of a new block recently on this forum. Before your arrival here many were skeptical of the chances of this ever getting done. To tell you the truth I am completely ignorant of the skill sets and resources needed to do a project like this. Upon hearing the phrase "it can't be done" my own secret plan was to build a model of the best 8BA I could in my little backyard shop. The changes I wanted to make were mostly in the intake and exhaust porting and I also wanted to "play" with intake valve angles and sizing. I thought I might be able to do this by simply machining away the areas marked for improvement then rebuilding those areas with "bondo" and go in and reshape the porting and change the valve position by hand. I thought if a person took an actual block and simply changed only the areas of improvement that a skilled person like yourself could digitize or reverse engineer this prototype. Thinking that having something in 3D that one could photograph and demonstrate the benefits of, might be a catalyst to spark interest in a new engine block. It was in my mind to take the idea as far as I could then find an engine master, like yourself, to actually get it done for real. Of course this engine block is quietly sleeping on a stand in my little shop awaiting me for time and the procurement of my dream of owning my own vertical milling machine. The engine block of my dreams exists but only in my head at the moment. I feel like you can and will actually bring it to light. The Flathead community (and I think I can speak for all of us) would love the option of a new engine. Please if there is anything I or anyone here can do to help you don't hesitate to ask. I think this is great! |
05-27-2017, 09:25 AM | #256 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
a latter pan on the 32 block leaves a gap about 1/2" wide and 1 1/2" long in that corner. The early block has no provision for the vent on the pan rail near the front. There are several different pan gaskets available. G.M.
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05-28-2017, 09:50 AM | #257 |
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Re: New block
I am bumping this thread because it promises to be one of the most important and exciting developments in the Flathead V8 world for many years.
Anyone have anything more to add? |
05-28-2017, 10:41 AM | #258 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod |
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05-28-2017, 11:00 AM | #259 | |
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Re: New block
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05-28-2017, 11:18 AM | #260 |
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Re: New block
Another thought that doesn't have anything to do with this project technically but what would be a possible way to market and service this block?
Tod do you have plans afoot on this subject? Will you be assigning specific vendors or do you have the ability to do that inhouse? From past experience having knowledgeable key people to handle any issues that might arise at with the consumers can really make a difference. It might even be something that FoMoCo themselves would like to add to their performance parts department. In fact the having a Ford part number might even help the psychology of those desirous of using genuine Ford parts in their cars. (Even though a million guys seem to have no problem putting Gm power in their Fords) lol |
05-28-2017, 01:53 PM | #261 |
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Re: New block
On Tod's remark about typing stuff in and getting timed out to lose it : I learned a long time ago that if I was going to enter any volume of text at all, I do it initially in "Notepad" and then "cut-n-paste' it when I'm satisfied. Saves a bunch of frustration.
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05-28-2017, 04:28 PM | #262 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
I doubt I will be doing anything with Ford. Tod |
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05-29-2017, 11:08 AM | #263 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
The other area where I think you'll need to really think about and then make some firm decisions is the whole valve train "package" that comes with the block --> you should include a much better port design (intake and exhaust) - such that everybody benefits from better flow. Some 'performance hounds' like me will take the "as cast" port designs and port/blend them even further - for larger cubic inches and higher performance. With this said, I would probably think about what initial valve sizes you include "out of the box" -- like 1.72" intake and 1.6" exhaust. I would not want to have to bore out and put valve seats into every block - that gets expensive for every builder. So - you might as well go with a larger hardened valve seat from the get-go. With the above said, I'd still like the option of buying a block without any valve seats at all (would think at a cheaper price) - as if I'm building an OHV conversion (like an Ardun), it makes no sense to pay for them or for you to invest the machine work/parts/time . . . only to not use them. Another peak performance idea just came to mind: Would be interesting to explore the potential to move the intake/exhaust bowl/guide locations maybe just a bit further apart. I've not done any measuring, but I will look into it (to see how much room is available), impact on heads/studs, impact on cam lobes (if it can be done), etc.. I would LOVE to have a larger intake valve (if the port could support the flow) - beyond 1.72" with a hard seat - and the only way for this to work is to move the valves a bit further apart. Anyway - just pondering the 'ultimate' design a bit further in my mind . . . will look at my CAD models when I get home next week. Something fun for me to look at . . . LOL! |
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05-29-2017, 05:05 PM | #264 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Edit to add. And now I see I'm not the first with this suggestion, so I'll go back to reading.
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05-29-2017, 05:59 PM | #265 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
B & S I'm intrigued with your idea of spreading the valve centerlines apart a little bit more. I think some careful thought should be given to not shrouding the intake valve more as a result of crowding the chamber wall. Ford accomplished a similar thing some years ago when they were doing the GT40 and GT40P cylinder heads for the 5.0 engine. Basically what Ford did was create a better exhaust port fitted with a slightly smaller exhaust valve which together outflowed the previous design. Then that freed up some space for a larger more efficient intake valve and port. Maybe a similar thing could be done with a Flatty. I personally think but don't know for sure, that by moving the intake valve closer to the cylinder bore edge you could pick up a lot of flow. It's all about relaxing that last nearly 180 degree turn the incoming charge has to make to fill the cylinder. |
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05-29-2017, 09:40 PM | #266 |
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Re: New block
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Thicken the deck re in-force the mains. Remove the water jackets around the intake ports. Raise the roof of the intake port. Now you have a block that fit; all comers, You'll even be able to bolt on a 21 stud head. Something like this would please most people. I really believe this is our only hope. PS I have a block that I've been cytting up and I could send you some pieces. |
05-29-2017, 10:08 PM | #267 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Very true Ron but we're just talking right now. On the other hand the "other" best way to improve the aspect ratio between the periphery of the intake valve and the cylinder bore is very simply by going to a larger bore which this block will do. Let's don't forget though, Ford themselves played with valve positioning for different reasons. I wonder if cam manufacturers account for those differences? |
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05-30-2017, 05:42 AM | #268 |
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Re: New block
I'm not moving valves. I have too much work in the center exhaust port alone to scrap that idea. The best I could do would be to provide a casting that is not machined at all in the valve areas and let the customer machine them where he wants. OR, I could do one (or however many) special order which would cost a ton to program.
Ron has pretty much hit what I'm aiming at. I am working on the ports a little as I finish the external details. Thickening the deck alone, and making blind deck bolt bosses is challenge enough with the limitations of the block parameters. Let me get something that is better and then I can always make reasonable changes after that prototyping is complete. If I can get 5 or 10 of these spoken for then we can think about other things if need be. I will post more details asap. Daily work will be getting back in the way now that the holiday is over. Tod |
05-30-2017, 07:49 AM | #269 |
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Re: New block
I don't think the center exhaust port need any changes. Using a flow bench proves that it's the best flowing port in the block. Just check the firing order.
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05-30-2017, 08:08 AM | #270 |
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Re: New block
I applaud the idea of someone as Tod willing to cast a more refined Flathead and willing to satisfy a few different generations. My hat is off to you and those willing to share their expertise. I would also think Ford and all manufacturers had "Planned Obsolescence" in some of their engine designs, otherwise they would never sell their newer cars a few years later. I'm not sure if that held true to their drivetrains as much as newer body styles and the rusting of body panels. Never rebuilt a flathead but I have rebuilt a few overhead valve engines. So I wish I could make a suggestion or two. But I do love the sound and feel of driving one. Keep up the good work.
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05-30-2017, 08:49 AM | #271 |
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Re: New block
All great stuff!
Pushing the Boundaries: I love the conversation and that we're talking about things that are beyond where the new design should go (for purposes of being applicable for the MOST people). It is not that Tod should do all the things we're pondering, but by having the discussion we encourage critical and creative thinking. Sometimes thinking about things that stretch the boundaries of the design or working design envelope - help us make better design decisions for WHAT ends up being in the final design. I always try to think beyond where my design will go - as I tend to make better designs as a result. Also, it may be that 'Version 1' has features A, B, C . . . but I might leave room for features D, E in the future (as an option) - and by knowing that I MIGHT do them later, I just may make some provisions in my Version 1 to leave that future door open. Valve Sizes, Ports and Bowl Work: There is probably not much of a reason why a bigger than 1.5" exhaust valve is needed . . . as a matter of fact, at the horsepower levels that are obtainable I'm sure even a 1.4" ex valve would work. Personally, I would love to try a 1.8" intake and a 1.4" exhaust - with good ports for both. I believe I can make more HP on the intake side of things . . . than I can get today. Of course, having better port designs and flow will be key. The idea of lowering the intake valve port floor and guide a bit - can surely help. Having more port width (in the intake) would also help. In the end the bowl area will probably be the most important as the stock design is a bit of a mess. I'd take stock guides diameters if I had a better shaped bowl and could contour the top of the stock guide to blend into a nicely formed bowl. JWLs book shows a lot of what can/should be done in the bowl area. Keep the ideas and discussion going . . . it is awesome that we're all discussing these things to together as a group and that Tod is an active participant. B&S |
05-30-2017, 09:18 AM | #272 |
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Re: New block
Folks had a completely different way of thinking back in that era. They were simply trying to make the best cars they could for the lowest amount of dollar value in order to get a price that would sell and a car that would attract as many buyers as possible. Obsolescence is there whether planned or not as time, the elements, and general design appeal changes.
The general design of the Ford flathead V8 has limits built in by its size. I think subtle changes is all you can get and still get the OEM stuff and to a limited degree aftermarket or hop up stuff to fit. It's worth checking to see what all the limits are. Folks just have to keep in mind that not much can be done to change that without a total redesign affecting all the fit of most of the OEM parts. A completely new design loses some appeal when many folks just want a usable near original type design. It's too easy to go back to a small block Ford or Chevy engine to get greater performance. Nostalgia types might look at the OHV Cadillac or Oldsmobile V8s of the era to get more performance as they did back in the day. The hold outs generally just put that blower on there to make the old flatty breath. |
05-30-2017, 11:30 AM | #273 |
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Re: New block
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05-30-2017, 03:01 PM | #274 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
There's no mention of where it is cast or machined, so I imagine it's offshore? |
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05-30-2017, 03:46 PM | #275 |
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Re: New block
A lot of Jeeps were made during the war. The production figures are astronomical. Many Jeep types & derivatives made after the war too so it makes sense to manufacture a new one. Most of the old ones were rode hard and put away wet many a time.
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05-30-2017, 05:39 PM | #276 |
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Re: New block
That Jeep engine is interesting in the positioning of the intake and exhaust ports.
Notice that the intake port centerline is lower than the exhaust? Well I think that was done to prioritize intake port efficiency. This gives the intake port added room to more gently rise up to the back of the valve head. I imagine that a Flathead Ford's intake port could be designed such that it curves up to the intake valve more gradually reducing the abrupt turn the charge must make in the valve pocket area. I believe that if done carefully that the original intake port entrance could be maintained to line up with the stock intake manifold runners. This would be a huge jump in volumetric efficiency in my humble opinion. |
05-30-2017, 05:54 PM | #277 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Tod, just a quick comment on cylinder head bolts, blind holes and deck thickness. I understand that Mark Kirby decided to go to, I think, 3/8" heads bolts for a couple reasons. First and foremost he believed that the smaller diameter fasteners would deflect the deck less and actually the fasteners would "yield" thereby actually increasing clamping force. The other reason was this change actually freed up a little space between the bolt holes closest to the cylinders to allow room for larger bores. Just food for thought as if you don't have enough to think about already. Lol! Sorry |
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05-30-2017, 05:56 PM | #278 | |
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Re: New block
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Tod |
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05-30-2017, 07:39 PM | #279 |
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Re: New block
I made a little more progress today despite having to mess around with one of my machines some and also doing some of the last 1st OP machining on a Cleveland block. I have a bunch of machining to do coming up so design work will take a back seat to cash flow.
Pics of the basic model so far. It is not finished so please be understanding. If you see what seems incomplete that would be because it is incomplete and do me the courtesy of assuming that I see it rather than figuring I'm a clueless moron (even if that much is true!). Tod |
05-31-2017, 11:50 AM | #280 |
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Re: New block
It sounds like the porting flow would have less of a sharp turn to make so that might do well as long as it still leaves room for valve installation and adjustment in the tappet valley which it should if I understand your approach to this.
Folks have done all sorts of stuff in the bowls over the years to reduce the right angle turn nature of them. They've added bondo, epoxy, and who knows what else to make a better curve in there. Some also braze up part of the contour of those large guides to get them to blend into the curve that they end up with as well as whittle a bit off one side of the guides to allow a bit more room to flow for an entry ramp. It will be interesting to see what you come up with. Flow Bench and Dyno testing have been done by innumerable people for as many design changes as you can imagine for these damn intake & exhaust ports. JWL & Ol Ron are some that I'm sure have experience with this. It would also be interesting to talk to Kenny Kloth about some of his testing if he ever would. Many of the guys that did a lot of this like DJ "Flat Dog" on the HAMB are already gone to us so their secrets will remain except for those that new them well. Some changes even if just subtle might have better effects than others. |
06-01-2017, 06:13 AM | #281 | |
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Re: New block
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Tod |
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06-01-2017, 08:08 AM | #282 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Sounds like you are moving along on this. Curious about the change of the water holes in the block. With this design, will you need to use a special head gasket covering the holes in the head? The water holes that are removed from block will still be in the heads and with water flowing in them and using a traditional gasket, the water is going to want to go somewhere. I can imagine this would be an area of potential leaks. |
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06-01-2017, 08:54 AM | #283 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
Keep up the great work Tod - you have a lot of folks watching and I for one will be happy to sign up for one of your first blocks! Dale |
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06-01-2017, 08:54 AM | #284 | |
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Re: New block
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06-01-2017, 09:06 AM | #285 |
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Re: New block
I don't think the holes in the head will make any difference, this will allow a much better intake flow to the cylinder. I like it. Just think, for the averaged guy that wants to build a nice engine for his early daily driver, he can now have a 258/258 ci engine with just the cost of pistons. A set of angled milled heads and 8:1 CR. Cruse with the best of them and get better gas mileage as well. I should live so long to see this.
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06-01-2017, 09:26 AM | #286 |
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Re: New block
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I guess with all things, its a tradeoff. If the tradeoff increases performance, so be it. |
06-01-2017, 03:46 PM | #287 |
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Re: New block
Today while machining some parts I was able to get to the other exhaust ports and I like the opening up of the port under the valve as well as the more smooth flow. I eliminated the sharp corners and turns as well as adding a dip to the bottom similar to the center port. I did this because I also dipped the top a little to aid in the deck thickening plan. I made better progress than I figured I would so now I will be able to do more water jacket work with that port geometry pretty much complete.
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06-01-2017, 07:18 PM | #288 |
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Re: New block
OK. Here are pics of the ports under way. As you can see, I increased the size of the area under the valve, more so on the intake than the exhaust. I also followed the idea of the center exhaust port where it dips down on the bottom side. I tried to make the intake less abrupt than stock. None of this is finished, but you can get the gist of it, I hope. I did the exhaust at work today and the intake this evening after supper.
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06-01-2017, 08:58 PM | #289 |
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Re: New block
Tod those airflow improvements look great!
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06-02-2017, 07:37 AM | #290 |
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Re: New block
I'm not sure how the divergence in the exhaust ducting is going to affect things in there. The velocity decreases a bit until it gets to the port where it will speed back up again. This is where I know I missed out on the engineering education I probably should've had. Maybe I worry too much but it seems it might have an effect on scavenging. I'm no rocket scientist though and it might be OK. Maybe others who have played with this stuff can give their ideas. Ford didn't have a very straight duct in there but it was uniform in cross sectional area pretty much all the way through. A drop in the roof proportionate to the drop on the floor might be necessary.
It will likely improve things on the intake side though since it should increase the velocity at a point where that could be an advantage. Last edited by rotorwrench; 06-02-2017 at 07:48 AM. |
06-02-2017, 08:27 AM | #291 |
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Re: New block
My grandson helped me flow am intake manifold using a computer program. I'm sure he could do the same with these ports. I'll forward this to him and ask, how he did it.
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06-02-2017, 10:12 AM | #292 |
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Re: New block
Hot exhaust gasses want to expand. This is why you see very high volume exhaust manifolds on engines used in such applications as heavy trucks and boats.
The difference here is the exhaust flow is effectively "supercharged" by the exhaust stroke of the pistons. I don't things like velocity and cross sectional area of exhaust ports is as important as the intake side so long as it is more than adequate. The intake side relies on pressure differential in order to move flow. This is why velocity, momentum, reversion and other phenomena are important to getting the highest performance possible. |
06-02-2017, 10:50 AM | #293 |
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Re: New block
Scavenging helps draw in the intake charge before the exhaust valve closes so it's important that there is no interference in flow on either side of the equation. A divergent duct where flow it taking place, increases pressure and decreases velocity. It's all Bernoulli's principle. The opposite, a convergent duct, reduced pressure and increases velocity. The proposed port design diverges in the middle then converges toward the end so I don't know what that will do there. All I'm mentioning is that it might not allow enough scavenge effect as a duct that has no divergence or convergence to it. Someone that knows this stuff better than I should take a look at this.
The center port has a tendency to do the same thing so some folks put those dividers in there to decrease the effect but the way the firing order is, it doesn't seem to affect it except at higher flow rates or higher RPM. This might be part of the reason that flatheads drop off at around the 4000 to 5000 RPM range. The other part would just be the size of the ducts. Ford only made them so big in order to fit into the overall design. |
06-02-2017, 06:26 PM | #294 |
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Re: New block
Some information on ex ports, and Flat dogs intake port. I have trouble posting pics, but you get a chance to see some of our work. In the latest intake port the waterjacket over the intake port is filled with Devcon liquid steel. In a future port I will fill the intake bowl with liquid steel as well. Just to see how it works. Another improvement to flow is in the heads. The exit of the transfer area should be increased to a 45.60 deg angle. I have some more pics.
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06-02-2017, 07:11 PM | #295 |
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Re: New block
On the subject of ports, is there an often chosen size of intake port at the manifold/block surface for mild street engines? Best makes a "Big Port" intake gasket, and it seems I've seen many recommendations here to just open the block and manifold to match that gasket. http://www.bestgasket.com/engine_cat...59A%20Std-Bore.......[511]
I bought a manifold for my project that has already been cut to that size, so I need to open up my block to match. If Tod's block had that size port already, what harm would there be in putting a stock port size manifold on it? I do understand why not to go from large to small, and I understand about potential turbulence from the small to large mismatch, but it gets done on OHV engines every day, sometimes even large mismatches. Some even claim a benefit from anti-reversion effects. BTW - Here's a thread with some info on what rods will fit through what diameter bores. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...03&postcount=7 A friend built a B engine with aluminum rods, he had to install the rods onto the pistons from the bottom, after the pistons and rings had been inserted into the cylinders, and before putting the crank in. Is that possible in an 8BA? Has anyone here ever done that? |
06-02-2017, 08:18 PM | #296 |
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Re: New block
I don't think you can improve the ports for a street engine. Plus there is more to porting than just making it bigger. One of the best running street engines was in Richarrds from fls 276 53 HT. with atock ports I drove the car and was surprised at the performance. All this porting and other mods to combustion chambers happen over 4000 rpm. I do believe the port matching is a good idea, but have no knowledge to prove it one way or another in our flatheads What does help in the CR of the combustion chamber and the piston to head clearance. I believe that is more important in a street engine than porting..
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06-02-2017, 09:56 PM | #297 | |
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Re: New block
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06-03-2017, 06:42 AM | #298 |
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Re: New block
I was able to start on the driver's side water jacket yesterday and made better progress than I figured I would. It would be nice to have this ready for core work by July.
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06-03-2017, 07:44 PM | #299 |
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Re: New block
In between relaxation time today and running some errands with my wife I was able to rework and finish the intake port. I like it even more. I also inserted one intake and exhaust port into the water jacket and started incorporating that geometry into the jacket. It's no wonder these things run warm. There is so much junk in the way of water flow it has to get hot. They almost need 4 water pumps!
For the sake of coolant I am only increasing deck thickness to .430 instead of .500. I'm eliminating water above and between the intakes but keeping as much as possible around the upper exhaust port areas. Tod |
06-04-2017, 09:35 AM | #300 |
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Re: New block
Can't wait to see the images for the porting inserted into the block.
It sounds like you're designing really nice ports and also leaving material there for the folks that want to take it to the next level. Thank you sir for taking this project on and for being so open about it. A quality Flathead replacement block WILL take the nostalgia hot rodding world by storm. It will bring people to the fold that previously would not have considered Flathead power due to its perceived weaknesses. In addition giving engine builders something that doesn't have to be hunted down and squirreled away for future build projects will save a bunch of time and money. I feel like, as a part time Flathead engine builder, I could reasonably expect to offer a block such as this as a viable alternative to car owners looking for a refreshed power plant. In many ways relating to preparation labor this block will save them money while delivering added performance. If the outside bits bolt on and most of the stock Ford rotating assembly still works you are going to have a slam dunk success with this. I can tell you from years of observation that every gear head is fascinated by the look and sound of a dressed up Flathead. I think a new block will open doors to guys that have been heretofore afraid to trust a Flathead whether or not those fears are based in reality. Thank you Tod. |
06-04-2017, 10:11 AM | #301 |
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Re: New block
I'm impressed with your no-nonsense approach to this project. I'm curious about how much new parts will go into a typical hot rod flathead when your new block is offered. Since new rotating assemblies are easily sourced now, new valve train is common, new water pumps, new heads, new intakes, and new headers are also typical. What is left to take from an original Flathead? The timing cover, oil pump idler and cover, oil pan, and ???. With your block it looks like pretty much all wear items are going to be offered new. Impressive.
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06-04-2017, 10:19 AM | #302 |
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Re: New block
Believe the other items you listed are available aftermarket as well if you wanted them.
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06-04-2017, 10:40 AM | #303 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
If built in a certain way I think this block could also be outfitted to look very much like the earlier Flathead versions. It's quite an exciting prospect and I truly believe this project will surprise people at how well received it is within the Flathead community and also to the casual fan. |
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06-05-2017, 07:42 AM | #304 |
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Re: New block
I look at this as a replacement for the original from 1932 through 1953 engines. Should a person who wanted to rebuild his present 1938 through 1953 engine and found his original lock to be NG. He would be able to us ALL his original parts. For those that want to replace their 32/38 21 stud block they could use everything except the crank assy.
Also, if the cylinders can be bored to 3 3/8, their displacement will rise to 268 CI and the Cr to 8:1 with only a piston swap giving a nice increase in torque and better fuel economy. |
06-06-2017, 06:40 AM | #305 |
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Re: New block
I was under the weather Sunday and most of Monday so I didn't get much done by way of design/model work.
I have to say that I am with Ron on the bore sizing. Given the restrictions of the block design I believe that 3 3/8 will be the comfortable maximum on this. With my intake ports, I doubt more than polishing will be necessary. Tod |
06-06-2017, 08:18 AM | #306 | |
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Re: New block
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Quote:
As far as 3 3/8" bores go that would be a Godsend as will the prospect of minimal necessary port work. Wow honestly a new block could really touch a new wave of enthusiasts interested in Flathead Ford power. The engine block itself has become the only major ingredient in an early Ford build that is in short supply. I can truly imagine the possibility of a very nice and well thought out "crate" engine coming out of the existence of a new, high quality and repeatible engine block. Very exciting when I play this out in my head. |
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06-06-2017, 11:19 AM | #307 |
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Re: New block
I like the idea of a 268" stock stroke setup. Maybe it'll increase the demand for stock 8BA crankshafts!
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06-06-2017, 12:12 PM | #308 |
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Re: New block
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06-06-2017, 02:06 PM | #309 |
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Re: New block
For a rebuild, it would be a logical move. All you'd need is just a set of pistons. Now all we have to do is have Egge make up a set of 3 3/;8 x 3 4/4 pistons with Metric rings
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06-06-2017, 02:07 PM | #310 |
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Re: New block
To put this in perspective guys a standard Ford 3 3/4" crank would be a 1/4" stroker crank in either a 351 Ford or a 350 Chevy if it would fit.
There is a reason why Flathead Fords give a pleasant push. They got plenty of arm even in stock form. |
06-06-2017, 07:45 PM | #311 |
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Re: New block
Come on Tod . . . give us enough bore thickness to go to a 3.5" bore . . . I want the extra cubes! You can do it - just give me about a .150 wall thickness at that size.
Even if I have to offset the bore a bit (due to the center exhaust ports) . . . I'm happy to go .060 off of center. B&S |
06-07-2017, 08:55 AM | #312 |
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Re: New block
I wouldn't be surprised if 308 CID engines have been fabricated using sleeves but I would wonder how well the heads would seal. You can only push that block so far before it would need a redesign for reliability in larger bore configurations. 286 CID ain't bad and 295 with a bumped out stroke is possible. I just don't know how many folks would want to change it that much just for a few more cubic inches.
Folks like me would just be glad to have a stocker available. |
06-07-2017, 10:00 AM | #313 |
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Re: New block
I just got caught up on this thread. The idea is great but there's a reason guys with pretty deep pockets have tried and realized the $'s don't make sense. I'm not understanding the economics. I'm an old Toolmaker Machinist and enjoy building machining assembling engines as much as any & have heard the $ #'s we're talking. After doing the research several years ago & after understanding of how hard it is to find a good block as said in this thread I went to Jerry Livingston at United Eengines, http://www.unitedengine.biz/united_004.htm , as you can see he offers a '49 to '53 for under $2300 assembled with all internals and earlier config's for under $2700 less bolt ons. He's one of the good ones and reasonable but their are others. Back to economics, while I enjoy the build I could buy another from Jerry and disassemble it and reassemble it ( not that anyone would, lol ) & realistically be at least a couple $Grand ahead of paying $2400 for a bear block that still needs finish matching pushing it to $3400 before any internals are bought or assembled?
Like I said, Tod I love the idea & maybe a few guys looking for a more versatile block for performance would be in I think I until guys / co.'s and available flatty blocks are gone your pricing at this time would need to be approx $1000 to compete with these guys putting out stock flatty assembled with internals for $2300 to $2700. JMO?
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06-07-2017, 10:05 AM | #314 | |
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Re: New block
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06-07-2017, 11:48 AM | #315 |
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Re: New block
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06-07-2017, 01:01 PM | #316 |
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Re: New block
It is not hard to get to 304 cubes . . . or larger, it is a matter of how long of stroke are you going to run. An issue that comes into play is the length of the piston skirt and pin location (getting into the rings). I'd prefer to have a larger bore (with plenty of wall thickness). But - with a 3 3/8 bore and 4.250 stroke, you'd be at 304 cubes . . . and this new block will have more cylinder wall thickness (I hope).
When you bore a standard Ford block to 3 3/8s, you end up with a cylinder wall thickness of approximately .100 or so (depending on core shift, rust, etc). I would really prefer a thickness at a 3.375 bore that is closer to .200 . . . and maybe a 3.500" bore that is close to .150 (I know, the math says it would be .1375 or so). I'll take all I can get! |
06-07-2017, 01:40 PM | #317 |
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Re: New block
I'm no expert, but my impression of what United Engine Specialists is providing are "remanufactured" flathead V8's. They are not providing brand new blocks to build their engines. So this is an apple to oranges comparison. Keep going Tod, we need you!
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06-07-2017, 04:19 PM | #318 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
That is certainly a good price, especially if it comes with a good warranty, and seems ideal for the car flipper who can say "it even has a rebuilt engine", and for the low buck enthusiast who just wants it to run without smoking, leaking and knocking. On the other hand, a lot of us would be happy to spend the bucks for a brand new casting that we know hasn't been overheated, abandoned in a gravel pit for decades, or otherwise abused, and didn't have to scour the countryside to find. One that we can put our personal touch on, whether mild or wild. One we can run hard without worrying about a valve seat popping out or a crack opening up, or blowing a head gasket because the deck was cut once too often. As far as "understanding the economics", if we're worried about that, sell the flathead and buy a Prius! This a hobby, after all. One that makes more sense than hoarding stamps or baseball cards! |
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06-07-2017, 04:52 PM | #319 |
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Re: New block
Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, just talking real world. I wish Tod all the good wishes and good will possible. Go for it.
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06-07-2017, 05:14 PM | #320 |
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Re: New block
Most rebuilders want a rebuildable core engine in exchange or they charge an additional core price. Good blocks don't grow on trees and why should they be the ones going out there scouring the country for them. I can't see selling them outright for that kind of price for any long length of time in this day and age. If they do they're selling themselves short unless they've been sitting on them a long time. The model A short blocks are going for those prices if they rebuild yours. Long blocks are over $3000. The V8 has twice as many rod bearings, valve assemblies, pistons, and ring packs plus twice as much cylinder and valve work.
All a DIY guy like me suffers is the machine shop work and a lot of that could be saved with a fresh block if prepped even close to being ready to go. |
06-07-2017, 05:58 PM | #321 | |
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Re: New block
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06-07-2017, 08:06 PM | #322 |
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Re: New block
Hey gang, General Motors built enough sbc's to encircle the Earth and yet there are quite a few aftermarket companies make blocks for one reason or another.
There are even more aftermarket companies that make various cylinder heads for the sbc's. Now as we all know that is a huge market but we must also understand that the V8 Fords are also a good and healthy market. When we think of something like this we must remember improving airflow is mostly involving the cylinder block on the Flathead Ford. A cracked head on an sbc can be discarded and replaced with a better replacement. With our little Ford V8's we must deal with those cracks or be forced to discard the majority of the engine and start over. We know we aren't building Flathead Fords because they are the easiest way to cheap horsepower. We are building these things because they are a great little engine that when done correctly run, sound and look better than they should. In this day and age where mom's V6 minivan can turn a 14 second E.T. at the drag strip our expectations are higher. There is nothing wrong with building in as much value as practically possible to keep these beautiful old Fords running great well into the 21st century. Now it sounds to me that Tod's block will very close to in not fully finished machined with some important improvements to make it a very nice running engine. Think on that a minute. Think of all the preparation work that must be done BEFORE you send it to the machine shop. For those who may not be hands on for that process I can tell you it's a ton of work. It's a ton of work and it's a labor of love as well but that work must be accounted for and man hours can be very expensive. Imagine being able to counter the expense of the hours an engine builder puts in and the machinist charges for all this work against the cost of this engine block. For me it's a no brainer. |
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06-07-2017, 08:28 PM | #323 |
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Re: New block
Thanks Henry, well said. What Tod proposes to do should make MOST people happy. I wonder what the officials will say when a new block, brakes an old record. I still think there will be more 268 running in the future. If I had the time and money left when one is available, I'd find out just how well it would run. In JWL;s book, he couldnot get 100 hP from a 239 engine, no matter what he did to it on the out side. Now with an improved porting system, I'd expect the new block to far exceed that number, and look the same as when the original was made. Tod, send me one when it's done and we'll find out. That is, if I'm still around./
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06-08-2017, 03:27 PM | #324 |
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Re: New block
I got a little done today but I had some running around to do. I went to the foundry to pick up some heads and take some cores for Winfield heads. They broke another head. That's 3 out of 14. Not very good percentage of success. I'll try to sell it at a discount.
I am working on the lifter valley as I work on water jackets since there are common areas that need modeled at the same time. Progressing nicely. Tod |
06-08-2017, 06:40 PM | #325 |
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Re: New block
Even with the flaw that head will likely make some 4-banger fan happy. Some folks don't realize how many articles don't survive the manufacturing process. Even Ford had a separate machining facility to resurrect some of the flawed parts that didn't pass quality control inspection.
The sheet metal stamping processes also have a percentage of flaws that I imagine are similar to foundry percentages. Some guy skilled with a torch, hammer, and dolly got to do the repairs on some of that stuff. |
06-08-2017, 06:59 PM | #326 | |
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Re: New block
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I had 2 buyers for it immediately. Tod |
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06-08-2017, 09:10 PM | #327 | ||||
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Re: New block
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06-11-2017, 09:44 AM | #328 |
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Re: New block
Model progress is moving along. I have been working on the driver's side water jacket and lifter valley areas when I can. So far, so good. Exterior of the block is pretty much finished.
I think I will need 10-20 commitments when the model is ready for core work and castings to make it doable. Fortunately, I have all the tooling for machining these blocks in machines that I use all the time. Once I have a casting or 2, it shouldn't take long to get the first ones ready for testing. Tod |
06-11-2017, 11:13 AM | #329 |
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Re: New block
Tod, America needs more "doers" like you.
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06-11-2017, 03:33 PM | #330 | |
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Re: New block
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06-11-2017, 10:46 PM | #331 |
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Re: New block
I know very little about the casting of an engine block, but I remember my high school shop teacher telling us that one of the reasons the Rambler did not sell like many other cars was because at one time they rushed their castings through without 'seasoning' them for a year out in the back lot. Thus they changed shape a bit which lead to warped surfaces and other maladies. Just wondering if that was ever a real issue and if today's technology has negated any problems in that area. I think your new block is a great idea and long overdue for my favorite engine of all time. Too bad I just bought 8 good blocks as a retirement investment! But seriously I love what you are doing, and can't wait to start seeing them running!
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06-12-2017, 10:29 AM | #332 |
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Re: New block
Ford would cast blocks in lots which were fairly large lots. The castings would come out of the sand removal process and get stacked outside until they were moved to the machining center. I remember seeing photos of Charles Sorensen and others next to large quantities of blocks that were stacked & setting in rows in between processes so I know they set out for a while but I doubt if it was very long.
Racers are the only ones I know of that use a "seasoning" process to normalize cast blocks. Manufacturers rarely had the time to waist on parts setting around. Last edited by rotorwrench; 06-12-2017 at 02:03 PM. |
06-12-2017, 11:06 AM | #333 |
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Re: New block
Tod:
I'm interested. Is there a rough, ballpark or estimated figure of what the total cost will be for your block? Understandably, with a project like this, the price could change at any time, but before I commit I was hoping to get a ballpark figure first. Thanks, Tim |
06-12-2017, 01:52 PM | #334 | |
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Re: New block
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In the mid 2k range. Tod |
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06-12-2017, 03:47 PM | #335 |
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Re: New block
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06-13-2017, 05:03 PM | #336 |
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Re: New block
I'm interested, whenever more final details are available please txt or private email me. Thank You.
Ed |
06-14-2017, 07:25 PM | #337 |
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Re: New block
Despite finding out that I am not up to the task of making this block progress continues, while I work on other stuff. I have the core shop working on 3 different projects and delivered a pattern today for a part I do for Snyder's. I have a couple of different new heads to machine and there is the normal daily production.
Right now I am doing detail work in the water jackets. The next week will probably be slow since I am taking a few days off and going out of town for a break. Tod |
06-15-2017, 08:55 AM | #338 |
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Re: New block
Aaaand, 20,004 views.
In 6 weeks. Tod, you are an overachiever. Do you ever sleep? You accomplish more than I ever do, and I've never had a stroke. |
06-15-2017, 03:07 PM | #339 |
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Re: New block
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06-21-2017, 07:09 PM | #340 |
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Re: New block
Hi fellas, I am kicking this thread back to the top to learn if there is a need to "name" this new block.
It's common knowledge that new products need to be marketed. We also have names for regular production Flathead Ford engines. Names that are really just alpha numeric titles like 81A's and 59AB's and 8BA's. Then there is the "French" Flatty and the V8 60, etc. I'm sure Tod has some idea what he wants to call his new block. If by chance though it's up for debate I'd like to submit my opinion. I firmly believe that the Flathead Ford is the "cornerstone" of hot rodding. I thing a very strong case can be made for that. In light of that I think names like CORNERSTONE or KEYSTONE might be applicable and appropriate for a new product such as this. In another direction I always thought "POWER KING" would be a great name to revisit again. Ford had that name in the early 50's. So those are some of my ideas and as I stated before Tod probably has a good idea where he wants to go with this. I think it would be fun to hear your ideas though. What would a new generation Flathead Ford be called in your mind. Fire away if you like. |
06-21-2017, 08:27 PM | #341 |
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Re: New block
I've always liked the Oldsmobile Rocket and or the Rocket 88. What about the Ford Rocket or the Flat Rocket. Let's hear some more thoughts :-]
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06-21-2017, 08:45 PM | #342 |
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Re: New block
Fordever Block ( Flatheads Forever) Get it???? NO hmmmmm back to the drawing table!
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06-21-2017, 09:14 PM | #343 |
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Re: New block
Another one I thought might be cool would be the "LEGACY" block.
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06-22-2017, 09:18 AM | #344 |
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Re: New block
Big BA or King BA
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06-22-2017, 09:25 AM | #345 |
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Re: New block
How about the "Tod" or the "Butterworth"? After all, it's his work that's making it happen and he deserves the accolades.
Edit: Whoops! My bad! "Buttermore" Last edited by BillLee/Chandler, TX; 06-22-2017 at 07:32 PM. |
06-22-2017, 10:18 AM | #346 |
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06-22-2017, 11:11 AM | #347 |
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Re: New block
The Butterworth has a nice ring to it...
Question: What's you got under the hood? Answer: It's a Butterworth. Comment: Sweet! |
06-22-2017, 12:14 PM | #348 |
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Re: New block
I believe Tod's last name is Buttermore. But that has a nice ring to it just the same.
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06-22-2017, 12:52 PM | #349 | |
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Re: New block
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Owner: But wait, I have more. A Buttermore to be exact.... Last edited by Tim Ayers; 06-22-2017 at 01:56 PM. |
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06-22-2017, 01:24 PM | #350 |
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Re: New block
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06-22-2017, 03:43 PM | #351 |
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Re: New block
What I'd like to do is build on with the least amount of after market "Stuff", and see how it runs and what improvement there is over the original? It might not like it's new name.
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06-22-2017, 04:01 PM | #352 |
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Re: New block
There is always the Interceptor. http://www.oldcarbrochures.org/index...-Police-Car-02
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06-22-2017, 05:46 PM | #353 | |
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Re: New block
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06-22-2017, 07:06 PM | #354 |
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Re: New block
[QUOTE=BillLee/Chandler, TX;1489124]How about th "Tod" or the "Butterworth"? After all, it's his work that's making it happen and he deserves the accolades.
I can just see it now. "That's one hot Toddy you got there". |
06-22-2017, 07:52 PM | #355 |
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Re: New block
I'd call it the largest CI displacement it can be sensibly bored and stroked to, perhaps the 304 block? Even if it's not taken that far out, everyone will know what it represents, and lots of engines are called by their displacement. "What's under the hood?" "A 304 flathead".
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06-22-2017, 11:13 PM | #356 |
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Re: New block
Where exactly will Tod be building these? I always liked the sound of designations such as a 'Windsor' or a 'Cleveland' block. Would one of these engines be shipped to me all machined, ready to set in my fresh rotating assembly, valves etc? That would be ideal!
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06-23-2017, 08:59 AM | #357 |
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06-23-2017, 05:53 PM | #358 |
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Re: New block
Probably been asked & answered but couldn't find anything on it and curious. What happened to the original Ford tooling to make the original Flatty's or more currently the French version that was built in Europe into the '60's?
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06-23-2017, 06:27 PM | #359 |
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Re: New block
Yep, same here, I see the French blocks have been redesigned at the rear.
Are these being re-cast new? |
06-23-2017, 06:53 PM | #360 |
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Re: New block
French casting were last made in the late 80's, maybe early 90's. My block is dated '77. Its a HUGE improvement from the 49-53 8ba.
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06-23-2017, 07:13 PM | #361 |
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Re: New block
If as late as the late '80's early '90's wonder if molds , models, tooling still exists somewhere? Flattys had a pretty big following even then, can't believe all got scrapped?
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06-24-2017, 08:14 AM | #362 |
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Re: New block
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06-24-2017, 08:38 AM | #363 |
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Re: New block
Fordever Block ( Flatheads Forever) Get it???? NO hmmmmm back to the drawing table! Comments Welcome. I thought of this when I had 102 temperature bad cold and sinus infection and maybe something else I haven't discovered! :-)))
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06-25-2017, 07:24 PM | #364 |
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Re: New block
Just back from 4 days at the Summit nationals at Norwalk. I'm with Ron, let's wait to see the first one running before we worry about names. Back at it tomorrow.
Tod |
06-26-2017, 08:20 AM | #365 |
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Re: New block
I'm with you . . . because when I tend to throw "names" at engines, they're usually not ones I can repeat at Thanksgiving Dinner with Mom!
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06-26-2017, 11:57 AM | #366 |
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Re: New block
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Sorry about the type, my computer has a mind of it's own |
07-02-2017, 08:13 AM | #367 | |
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Re: New block
Quote:
That's what we need. |
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07-02-2017, 08:44 AM | #368 |
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Re: New block
Okay guys so maybe it's too early to have fun with names and such but what else can we do at this point? I'm excited to see this come to fruition
But anyhow I was at the Coke Zero 400 in Daytona last night. Pretty good show if you ask me. So as we walked out to our cars I looked back at the grandstands (which have been beautifully upgraded by the way) and saw a banner honoring Barney Oldfield, who happened to be a Ford test driver for a time, and the banner stated that Barney Oldfield's nickname was "Speed King". Speed King, I like that. That'd be a great title for a product this important. Think on it. |
07-02-2017, 09:55 AM | #369 |
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Re: New block
Speed King, might want to check with his wife first. But they were good washers.
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07-07-2017, 03:14 PM | #370 |
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Re: New block
Quick update.
I've had a lot going on the past few weeks, being out of town for a while, then the 4th weekend, now I have to go out of town again. Missed working on the block model most of the last few weeks. But I am still messing with it when I can. Progress is being made. That is one good thing. I will be trying to buy a new horizontal machining center in the next week or so as well as furnaces for my new foundry operation. Getting pulled in every direction right now. It is actually amazing that I get anything done. Tod |
02-05-2018, 11:27 AM | #371 |
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Re: New block
Any news?
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07-31-2018, 12:53 PM | #372 |
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Re: New block
X2 on any news??
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09-10-2019, 02:26 AM | #373 |
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Re: New block
Any further news on this project?
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09-10-2019, 03:51 AM | #374 |
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Re: New block
I've been wondering the same thing....any news on this project?
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09-10-2019, 07:17 PM | #375 |
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Re: New block
Good flathead blocks are not as rare as you might think. Allot of us old car guys have many put away that will out live us all. I have at least 10, one of them NOS.
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09-10-2019, 07:36 PM | #376 |
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Re: New block
Did you read the post "B&S" made about his "NOS" 59A block? A lot of "NOS" parts were factory rejects with the attendant problems.
Unless you have had your blocks thoroughly tested, I'll bet at least 8 of them are bad.. "Ran when parked" is not good enough; when I was in college, I ran an 8BA with 7 cracks between the valve pockets and the cylinders for two straight years with a combination of "STP", "Barr's Leaks", and some luck. I sold my second to last "good" 8BA block to a guy who had gone through 5 blocks from used engines that turned out to be unusable. You are correct that there will be some good blocks coming out of the "woodwork" over the next 20 years, but nowhere near enough to satisfy the demand that seems to be building now. In addition, "Tod" is planning some modifications that will make his new blocks superior to anything used. They probably won't be "legal" for Bonneville and SCTA competition (at least not for a while), but they will be a boon for the average "hotrodder". |
09-10-2019, 08:39 PM | #377 |
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Re: New block
What tubman said, and it's way worse for the 21 stud guys.
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09-10-2019, 08:46 PM | #378 |
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Re: New block
Phil makes a good point. There are lots of folks who have a stash of good flat head blocks. As time marches on, they will come to market. That being said, I sire admire Tod for his aspirations,talent and just plan hard work and devotion.
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09-10-2019, 08:54 PM | #379 |
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Re: New block
There is a huge difference between blocks and "good blocks"; a guy buys a bunch of engines 15 years ago and stuffs them in a shed or under the stairs (my favorite spot). How many of those were magna-fluxed and pressure tested. Not hardly a one in my opinion.
My experience is that "field engines" (ones not out of good running cars) are just that for a very good reason. I was given one once, about 25 years ago; never again. Last edited by tubman; 09-11-2019 at 02:59 AM. |
09-10-2019, 11:57 PM | #380 |
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Re: New block
When the time comes, I would be in at the mid 2k price. I will be watching for the notice he is ready.
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09-11-2019, 08:08 AM | #381 |
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Re: New block
I like many others here have anxiously followed this thread, and am very appreciative of the time Tod has invested. I do have to ask, and correct me if I am wrong, but has it not been years since we last heard from Tod??
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09-11-2019, 08:21 AM | #382 |
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Re: New block
Tod hasn't disappeared. He's still busily working on and making Model A and B parts.
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09-11-2019, 09:14 AM | #383 |
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Re: New block
Certainly good to hear, and not surprised that he is busy. However I was speaking to any word on the flathead V8 project.
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09-11-2019, 09:19 AM | #384 |
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Re: New block
Tod posted on 30 Aug: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268692
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09-11-2019, 09:34 AM | #385 |
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Re: New block
It sure looks like his plate is full. IIRC, he makes some special castings for late model Fords as well. Talented (and busy) guy.
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09-11-2019, 10:05 AM | #386 |
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Re: New block
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09-11-2019, 11:30 AM | #387 | |
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