The Ford Barn

Tim Ayers · 05-21-2019, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Funny how this post took on a life of it's own and went way off target (quality of certain heads)??

Anyway, to reply strictly to the quote above here, these numbers, 155 HP/265 TQ are indicative of what we almost always find on our basic 292" build, 3.312" x 4.250", Ross pistons/metric rings, Isky "8800", and single small 4 brl carb! Tri-power's see just a bit more!

There is NO porting, NO oversize valves, and NO hidden little "secrets", just some old-fashioned type excellent machine work! This is basically the identical build to my friend Ron's ride in my signature below here! Going above 40,000 trouble-free miles now coming up on 9 years!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Haven't heard back from Joe yet with any input from H&H, expecting to hear soon though. On an added note, knowing what we've learned through the years here about the power available from Turbo's this is what I'd be researching/testing if I were "chasing" Flathead HP. The sole issue with blowers is they consume some HP to run themselves. Not so with turbo's, have never done one though as far as I know. Sometimes after we do all the machining for some customers they walk out with their pieces and I don't hear anymore! There may have been a Turbo or two installed, just not aware.

Gary:

Well, the turbo secret is out with junk yard LS motors getting 800+ or more h.p. with either one massive turbo or dual units.

I think what is holding back most guys from going the turbo route is looks on a flathead powered hot rod.

If I had a lead sled, I would serious consider it since you can hide the units in the engine bay.

Might look a little out of place on an old roadster with two spools hanging over the frame rails. LOL!

revkev6 · 05-21-2019, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Funny how this post took on a life of it's own and went way off target (quality of certain heads)??

Anyway, to reply strictly to the quote above here, these numbers, 155 HP/265 TQ are indicative of what we almost always find on our basic 292" build, 3.312" x 4.250", Ross pistons/metric rings, Isky "8800", and single small 4 brl carb! Tri-power's see just a bit more!

There is NO porting, NO oversize valves, and NO hidden little "secrets", just some old-fashioned type excellent machine work! This is basically the identical build to my friend Ron's ride in my signature below here! Going above 40,000 trouble-free miles now coming up on 9 years!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Haven't heard back from Joe yet with any input from H&H, expecting to hear soon though. On an added note, knowing what we've learned through the years here about the power available from Turbo's this is what I'd be researching/testing if I were "chasing" Flathead HP. The sole issue with blowers is they consume some HP to run themselves. Not so with turbo's, have never done one though as far as I know. Sometimes after we do all the machining for some customers they walk out with their pieces and I don't hear anymore! There may have been a Turbo or two installed, just not aware.

gary, my concern with turbocharging a flathead is the heat build up in the exhaust between the valve and the turbo. in a flathead all the heat is kept in the block....

GOSFAST · 05-21-2019, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Gary:

Might look a little out of place on an old roadster with two spools hanging over the frame rails. LOL!

Hi Tim, I agree 100% about the "look", but if you're looking for all-out power Turbo is (most likely) the way to go? (In my neighborhood here we have 4-bangers making over 800, some even at the tires, google Vinny 10 racing)!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by revkev6

gary, my concern with turbocharging a flathead is the heat build up in the exhaust between the valve and the turbo. in a flathead all the heat is kept in the block....

Hi kev, can't have your cake and eat it too, if you want "ultimate" HP you'll have to deal with the heat!

If I was going to look to set any legitimate records today with the Flathead ( I'm not, believe me) I would most likely run it "Turboed", injected, and possibly on E-85, if not, on race fuel for sure! Definitely would be walking in "blind" though on a build like this. I would assume it would have to be a "concreted" block, at least partially anyway!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??

Darrell S · 05-21-2019, 02:29 PM

P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??[/QUOTE]

More than likely most everything for the old cars will see this 25% increase due to tariffs on Chinese products. Looks like it will be some time before all this is sorted out.

revkev6 · 05-21-2019, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi Tim, I agree 100% about the "look", but if you're looking for all-out power Turbo is (most likely) the way to go? (In my neighborhood here we have 4-bangers making over 800, some even at the tires, google Vinny 10 racing)!)

Hi kev, can't have your cake and eat it too, if you want "ultimate" HP you'll have to deal with the heat!

If I was going to look to set any legitimate records today with the Flathead ( I'm not, believe me) I would most likely run it "Turboed", injected, and possibly on E-85, if not, on race fuel for sure! Definitely would be walking in "blind" though on a build like this. I would assume it would have to be a "concreted" block, at least partially anyway!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??

I've been tinkering around in my mind on supercharging without losses.... think bonneville records.... need ballast in the nose usually anyway... so lets run some batteries up there and spin the supercharger electrically. they already do it with water pumps... why not the blower too.

shit, now I just let my secret out. i was going to patent and sell it to ronnie roadster for his next record

Pete · 05-21-2019, 02:33 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

"P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??"

That is ok if you can be satisfied with oats that have been through the horse.
Buy USA. FAR better quality.

Ol' Ron · 05-20-2019, 10:50 PM

That was a popular water system on th 60 hp midget blocks. eliminated the fan belt, Never saw that on the big blocks tho. That another good idea Pete. Learn sumpin every day!!

Pete · 05-20-2019, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

That was a popular water system on th 60 hp midget blocks. eliminated the fan belt, Never saw that on the big blocks tho. That another good idea Pete. Learn sumpin every day!!

Yes, we did a bunch of them on the 60's. That's a Martas pump.

Here are pics of one on an 8ba. The red belt goes down to the power steering/dry sump pump.

Ol' Ron · 05-21-2019, 08:25 AM

Combustion chamber shape?? Might as well get this one started. Back in the 80's when I was doing all this experimenting, I made up a wooden cylinder head and carved in a bunch of chambers after measuring most stock and aftermarket chambers. I was looking for the best flow compared to CR. I do have some pics of this somewhere. The best one was a piston with a 7 degree top and the head with an 8 deg angle. This pop up piston forced the AF into the valve area. It also allow for a very hi CR with excellent flow. I made up a piston shape with Bondo and sent it to EGGE and asked them if they could make a piston for me with enough material on it for me to machine the top. The cost was 600 dollars, which was far beyond my means.
Fast forward to 2003 and I was at Bivlle with JWL and the flathead powered Hudson. I was shocked the pistons in it. Just like the ones I had sent to EGGE and the Heads were made by Navarro. Interesting, but I'm still not sure this is the right shape. But, I still think the spark plug should be in the center of the transfer area . This creats a shorted flame front and allows for a power tip plug. Be interested in any comments, food for thought.

Tim Ayers · 05-21-2019, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Combustion chamber shape?? Might as well get this one started. Back in the 80's when I was doing all this experimenting, I made up a wooden cylinder head and carved in a bunch of chambers after measuring most stock and aftermarket chambers. I was looking for the best flow compared to CR. I do have some pics of this somewhere. The best one was a piston with a 7 degree top and the head with an 8 deg angle. This pop up piston forced the AF into the valve area. It also allow for a very hi CR with excellent flow. I made up a piston shape with Bondo and sent it to EGGE and asked them if they could make a piston for me with enough material on it for me to machine the top. The cost was 600 dollars, which was far beyond my means.
Fast forward to 2003 and I was at Bivlle with JWL and the flathead powered Hudson. I was shocked the pistons in it. Just like the ones I had sent to EGGE and the Heads were made by Navarro. Interesting, but I'm still not sure this is the right shape. But, I still think the spark plug should be in the center of the transfer area . This creats a shorted flame front and allows for a power tip plug. Be interested in any comments, food for thought.

This is interesting for around that same time (2003) Navarro introduced his hi flow head. It is a pop up, slightly angled piston design. At the time, the only pistons being made for this set up were from Arias @ $1,000 a set and the heads were a $100 premium over the $675 price for a "nostalgic" set.

I balked at the price for the set up. From what I understand, Ross now is also making pistons for this set up and the price is around their normal custom piston price of $700.

From what I gather, this set up is a great compromise between flow and compression.

Strick · 05-24-2019, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

This is interesting for around that same time (2003) Navarro introduced his hi flow head. It is a pop up, slightly angled piston design. At the time, the only pistons being made for this set up were from Arias @ $1,000 a set and the heads were a $100 premium over the $675 price for a "nostalgic" set.

I balked at the price for the set up. From what I understand, Ross now is also making pistons for this set up and the price is around their normal custom piston price of $700.

From what I gather, this set up is a great compromise between flow and compression.

Tim - what is the compression ratio of the "nostalgia" set? I got mine from him in 2002

Bored&Stroked · 05-24-2019, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strick

Tim - what is the compression ratio of the "nostalgia" set? I got mine from him in 2002

That can't be known unless you know the displacement of the engine (bore / stroke) as well as the piston to cylinder head clearance.

Strick · 05-24-2019, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

That can't be known unless you know the displacement of the engine (bore / stroke) as well as the piston to cylinder head clearance.

Didn't correctly type what I was asking...the cylinder head number (i.e. 425, 400, 375, etc.) sometimes stamped near the water outlet opening on some heads. guess the valve to cylinder head clearance was more appropriate to ask.

glennpm · 05-25-2019, 09:52 AM

Hi Strick.

Take a look at this set of charts put together by James Leis. PDF of charts is in the first post.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ferrerid=55059

Glenn

Strick · 05-26-2019, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glennpm

Hi Strick.

Take a look at this set of charts put together by James Leis. PDF of charts is in the first post.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ferrerid=55059

Glenn

Thanks Glenn!

Tim Ayers · 05-21-2019, 02:26 PM

Hi Gary:

E-85 is the ticket with turbo charging for it has a cooling effect due to the corn alcohol.

From what I gather, running E-85 is able to be done with fooling with the ECU programming on a LS motor.

tubman · 05-21-2019, 02:48 PM

A friend and I tinkered with electric powered superchargers a while ago. Although it has been done successfully (I read an article about an outfit that does it when I was "tinkering"), the bottom line is that it is extremely difficult to put together a package that provides enough power that is small and light enough to be practical.

revkev6 · 05-21-2019, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman

A friend and I tinkered with electric powered superchargers a while ago. Although it has been done successfully (I read an article about an outfit that does it when I was "tinkering"), the bottom line is that it is extremely difficult to put together a package that provides enough power that is small and light enough to be practical.

yes, this was directed at bonneville only. weight and packaging isn't nearly as important.. well packaging can be but you can design around it. on a flathead you can use up a significant portion of your gains spinning the blower.

there is NOTHING practical about electric supercharging. although I did read the BMW was looking to do this as a way to remove lag. small electric driven turbo on low end.

AKCJ · 05-21-2019, 04:13 PM

All this talk about electric supercharging reminded me of the guy who put a vacuum cleaner in the back of his rig and ran the discharge hose up to his carburetor. Electric Supercharger. He had to run a small gas powered generator to power the vacuum cleaner as he didn’t have a 12 volt vacuum.
Sorry Gary about wondering off your original thread.

Ol' Ron · 05-21-2019, 05:05 PM

With 2900 visitors to this thread, seems like a few people are interested is the BS that makes them go fast. I try to keep the cost down so those big creaks ane nor in my budget. However. for the past 5 years I've had the pleasure to ride behing one of Gares 294 crank assys in a 38 Ford PU we put together. Edekbrock 74cc heads, L-100 cam and 3 stromburgs, from Uncle Max, make a fun ride.

05-21-2019, 02:29 PM	#4
Darrell S Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Everett WA Posts: 359	Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??[/QUOTE] More than likely most everything for the old cars will see this 25% increase due to tariffs on Chinese products. Looks like it will be some time before all this is sorted out.

05-21-2019, 02:33 PM	#6
Pete BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,423	Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) "P.S. While I have some peoples attention here I just got a phone call from a good friend and was told to expect to see a 25% increase in ALL off-shore cranks. After he hung up I made my own call to one of the larger mfr's and confirmed his info, it IS correct. This will affect the Flathead cranks and, I suppose, all the off-shore conn rods also! If you're contemplating a stroker in the near future you may want to pick up the crank/rods now and "stash" them??" That is ok if you can be satisfied with oats that have been through the horse. Buy USA. FAR better quality.

05-20-2019, 10:50 PM	#7
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,985	Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser That was a popular water system on th 60 hp midget blocks. eliminated the fan belt, Never saw that on the big blocks tho. That another good idea Pete. Learn sumpin every day!!

05-21-2019, 08:25 AM	#9
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,985	Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser Combustion chamber shape?? Might as well get this one started. Back in the 80's when I was doing all this experimenting, I made up a wooden cylinder head and carved in a bunch of chambers after measuring most stock and aftermarket chambers. I was looking for the best flow compared to CR. I do have some pics of this somewhere. The best one was a piston with a 7 degree top and the head with an 8 deg angle. This pop up piston forced the AF into the valve area. It also allow for a very hi CR with excellent flow. I made up a piston shape with Bondo and sent it to EGGE and asked them if they could make a piston for me with enough material on it for me to machine the top. The cost was 600 dollars, which was far beyond my means. Fast forward to 2003 and I was at Bivlle with JWL and the flathead powered Hudson. I was shocked the pistons in it. Just like the ones I had sent to EGGE and the Heads were made by Navarro. Interesting, but I'm still not sure this is the right shape. But, I still think the spark plug should be in the center of the transfer area . This creats a shorted flame front and allows for a power tip plug. Be interested in any comments, food for thought.

05-25-2019, 09:52 AM	#14
glennpm Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Mid-Coast Maine Posts: 2,815	Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser Hi Strick. Take a look at this set of charts put together by James Leis. PDF of charts is in the first post. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ferrerid=55059 Glenn

05-21-2019, 02:26 PM	#16
Tim Ayers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 6,920	Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser Hi Gary: E-85 is the ticket with turbo charging for it has a cooling effect due to the corn alcohol. From what I gather, running E-85 is able to be done with fooling with the ECU programming on a LS motor. Last edited by Tim Ayers; 05-21-2019 at 03:40 PM.

05-21-2019, 02:48 PM	#17
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 11,638	Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser A friend and I tinkered with electric powered superchargers a while ago. Although it has been done successfully (I read an article about an outfit that does it when I was "tinkering"), the bottom line is that it is extremely difficult to put together a package that provides enough power that is small and light enough to be practical.

05-21-2019, 04:13 PM	#19
AKCJ Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 92	Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser All this talk about electric supercharging reminded me of the guy who put a vacuum cleaner in the back of his rig and ran the discharge hose up to his carburetor. Electric Supercharger. He had to run a small gas powered generator to power the vacuum cleaner as he didn’t have a 12 volt vacuum. Sorry Gary about wondering off your original thread.

05-21-2019, 05:05 PM	#20
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,985	Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser With 2900 visitors to this thread, seems like a few people are interested is the BS that makes them go fast. I try to keep the cost down so those big creaks ane nor in my budget. However. for the past 5 years I've had the pleasure to ride behing one of Gares 294 crank assys in a 38 Ford PU we put together. Edekbrock 74cc heads, L-100 cam and 3 stromburgs, from Uncle Max, make a fun ride.