Aftermarket Electric Radiator Fan

[Lembomw]

Has anyone replaced their radiator fan with an aftermarket electric fan? I have done searches on prior threads and do not find much information on this subject.

I have a newly built touring engine in my rebuilt ’30 Tudor that I just put back on the road recently (see avatar). It is a 12V car now. The engine has been bored 80 thousands, a counterbalanced crank, large intake valves, 6.1 head, cast iron header, lightened flywheel, FSI electronic ignition, Weber carb, pressurized mains, and a Stipe 340 cam. It has a new Brassworks radiator and an F-150 4 speed overdrive transmission.

I have a little over 400 miles on it now and I am still trying different combinations of jets in the carb to see what works best, and also which timing setting is best (currently at 5 degrees advanced).

When driving the car at speeds up to 55 mph the coolant temp is a little less than 190 degrees, unless it is really hot out then it goes higher ( I have a Vintage Precision thermostat housing with a 160 degree thermostat and I am running Evans waterless coolant in the engine). When I bump it up to 60 – 65 or am at a stop light or driving really slow the temp goes up over 200+ (I do not know what temp it is as there are no numbers on the temp gauge after it goes past 190).

I understand from reading past posts that doing all these things to the engine will make it run hotter, which makes sense. This is not a hot rod or a race car and do not plan on driving it at high speeds but I do not want to take any chances with the engine. I want replace the belt driven fan with an aftermarket electric fan to try and keep the coolant below 200.

There are a lot of electric fans out there (single fans, double fans, temp controlled, different sizes, etc) and would greatly appreciate any advice and guidance from those who have made this conversion.

Thank you very much for any assistance you can provide.

Mark

[kingbee]

I have the exact same engine as you, but Mitchell overdrive and Berg radiator. I'm also having the same cooling problems. I removed the 4 blade fan and installed an aluminum 2 blade. I also removed the thermostat from the Vintage Precision housing (even wide open the thermostat offers some blockage to water flow), and have gotten the water temp somewhat under control. I also removed the front license plate. The fact that I've now got 1300 miles on the engine may also have helped.

On another note, I remove the Weber for cold weather and use the original set-up, to get the exhaust manifold heat to the intake manifold as designed.

[larrys40]

Mark,

Sounds like you have a lot of conversions going on..... I'm not trying to rain on your parade but it could be that all of the conversions aren't helping you. Of course I'm a fan ( no pun intended) of a stock car, Mitchell overdrive endorsed with proper restoration everywhere else to help with cruising modern freeways. In my opinion using an "electric" fan in an "A" is totally unnecessary and improper. With a good flowing radiator, engine in good order, timing set properly, brakes not too tight...etc. It should run with a 2-blade forever. 4- doesn't cool it any better, just encumbers you to replace the water pump. In fact I have cut off broken blades on cars on the road that broke a fan blade, cut the other side off and ran home just fine. None of mine never run that hot...

You mentioned you don't want to run fast, not a race car... so to help you run cooler, keep the car simple and easily fixable, I would remove the weber, the fsi and go back to a stock distributor, stock zenith carb ( they idle so well), and use a stock leakless style water pump, no thermostat and if all components are good it should run cool.
This probably isn't what you wanted to hear... but I'm being truthful.. and it would have been a lot cheaper!
Best of luck...
Larry Shepard

[Jordan]

An electric fan will not help you when going down the road. It will help at a stop light/slow speeds. I don't really think the modifications will make it run hotter than a stock car, as long as you have everything set right. My car runs no hotter than it did before the mods. I would play with the timing a little more. Just a little bit off will make a big difference in engine temp.

[Jim Brierley]

First try removing the stat, it should actually run too cold with none in place. If it doesn't, the radiator needs professionally cleaning.

[MikeK]

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An electric fan won't help much. They are only useful if the car is not moving forward. You have a mechanical fan for that.

The problem is the "Waterless Coolant". The specific heat, or heat carrying capacity of the coolant is what you need to change. Your system, which includes factors such as contact surface area in the block and radiator, needs a heat transfer medium with a higher carrying capacity.

Specific heats, in BTU/lb-deg.F:
water @ 190F is 1.004.
waterless coolant (100% glycols) @ 190F is 0.652
50/50 (anti-freeze) @ 190F is 0.847

Switching from waterless to 50/50 will up your cooling heat transfer capacity 29.9% !!!
If you go to straight H2O, a whopping 54% !!!

I hope you didn't pay too much for that snake oil now in your cooling system.

[callcoy]

You may wish to confirm that your temp gauge is right on, buy or borrow an hand held infrared temp. checker, be sure you have a problem. Check the high and low positions of the radiator, the head and before and after the thermostat to confirm your thinking. The modifications you have made in actuality should help the overall operation of the engine, if it didn't why would all the car mfgs. in the world be using the same approach. Yes there are mechanical limitations to a 85 year old design and the lack of head bolts is the first, but then it affects the holding power of the head gasket.

If your radiator is functioning properly then as suggested pull the thermostat as a test, you can replace it after you have broken in your new engine. I have seen way more completely stock Model A's overheat than modified engine versions. The cooling system is 85 years old and you will need to make sure that all components are in good condition.

Even though you have a modern distributor don't forget that running an engine retarded will cause it to overheat. You may wish to double check the total advance while running if you have a degreed pulley or indicator. If you don't double the install to see if you the instructions were followed. With a timing light if you don't have any degreed indicators, mark two points, pulley and timing cover to check to see that the advance is working if you have that model of an FS unit.

[George Miller]

I have hot engines set ups. you should not be having a heat issue. There is some thing wrong, trimming, to lean, plugged radiator. A electric fan will not help, plus it would look way out of place. If you are ruining down the road you should not need a fan. You only need a fan a slow speeds, or stop lights.

My engine in my 28 sports coupe is much like yours. It has a 180 thermostat that is what it runs all summer long 180. Never needs water. You need to check ever think, like trimming at 2000 rpms, and make sure you are not ruining to lean at speed. If it is not that you might have trash from the water jackets that plugged your radiator.

My experience with the weber carb, is they are not jetted right for the model A engine. You must rejet the carb to get it right.
You might want to try a B carb with a bored out intake. That will work well with your set up. Plus you will not need a fuel pump. If you are not running a fuel pump, that might be your problem at speed.

[CarlG]

One of our guys broke a fan while on tour this summer (30 coupe stock engine). He just took the fan clear off and finished the tour (about 600 miles) with no fan at all. As long as you keep moving, the natural airflow will cool sufficiently.

[Logan]

Your timing is to far advanced. Should be at 0 at 500 rpm or even 5 degrees retarted at 500 rpm. Leaned out carb will cause a car to run hot. With everything you've got, and in a sedan, you need to be running rich. It's better to be running a little rich rather than a little lean. Read your plugs. Ron Kelly, a performance model a engine builder, told me tan in the middle, and a little black and sutty around the edges is just about optimum for a flat head. Also, the brassworks radiators in my opinion don't cool as well as other options. Atleast not here in Texas. If you have a new water pump, or one that has been rebuilt within the past decade or so, you may have to trip the fins on the shaft of the pump. There is a diagram somewhere on how much you would need to take off of each fin on the shaft. You also should not be using overdrive or drive the car that fast this soon. When I break in a motor I, I drive under 40 for the first couple hundred miles. Then under 50 until about 800-1000 miles. I don't use overdrive durring that period unless I'm on flat ground, and I have to because of traffic. The overdrive does lower the rpm, but does not decrease load on the motor. It actually requires a lot more torque to pull the overdrive gear than just using the standard gears.

Also what kind of thermometer do you have? Idk how many of the expensive ones sold by the vendors we've been through. Seems like they quit reading accurately after a couple years.

When checking your jetting get to a road where there is little to no traffic, but has a decent speed limit. Get on this road, and cruise like you would you were just going down the highway, for me since I don't use overdrive often durring the break in, I would leave it out of overdrive, and drive it 45-50. Then after about 5-10 miles, when you find a safe spot to pull over, shut the engine off while driving down the road. Do not pull over and let it idle as this will distort the color on your plugs and give you a false reading. You can pull all the plugs to read them, but the one you are most concerned about is the 3rd cylinder, as it runs the hottest. Jet the carb according to the 3rd cylinder. Some others may pipe in and give their advice on how to properly jet on, but this has been my experience on how to do it. When I had a piston fail a couple months ago on a "professionally" rebuilt motor, the model a engine builder that did the machine work on my cylinders (different guy than who peices the motor together the first two times) had me bring everything over for him to look at. He agreed that after looking at everything that my carb was set up correctly, and I had not gotten the motor to hot for the piston to fail. I'm telling you this, because I don't know who built your engine, but if you're running to lean and you burn up a piston or anything else, it could come back on you and the builder may not warranty it. My problem ended up being in what we believe in the cylinder sleeve in that cylinder, which we have fixed and I put it back together and am in the break in period again. (There was a laundry list of other problems with it too. Even the rear main bearing shell was put in backwards in the cap) Even though the bearing have about 3500 miles on them, I'm still following my usual break in policy. The break in period is crucial on these motors, especially when you're running a bunch of mods. Mods will work great, and benefit you power wise if set up correctly.

[Duffy1]

Is the brass works radiator designed to run pressure . I have a lot of the mods you have plus AC no thermostate . I live in Texas and it does get hot here . Three things I did to lower the temp .
1) Brass works pressurized radiator with over flow bottle . Run 4 psi cap and radiator full . Summer ;Water and rust inhibitor.Winter ;50/50 Sierra anti freeze.
2) Engine pans
3) New Aires S S muffler .

[Duffy1]

One other item I added that helped reduce temp . was a fan schrod.

[Lembomw]

Thank you all for your input and suggestions. My major concern which is heading me for the electric fan is that our club participates in several parades during the summer and I do not want to overheat when driving along at 2mph for an hour. When the engine is broken in and safe to drive at 65mph in order to keep up with traffic I do not want it to get too hot either. I have a Rupert leakless water pump so that is not a problem. The two blade aluminum fan that I had got bent when I sent it to the engine builder so I put on a 5 blade plastic fan from Snyders. I do not know if the Brassworks radiator is a pressurized one but I do have a 2 quart overflow bottle attached to it. The engine pans are on and I have a new Aires muffler installed (not Stainless though). Where do you get engine shrouds for these cars? I don’t think they came with them did they?

When I decided to rebuild the car I did not want to spend the time and expense to build a “points” car (if I was going to build a stock car might as well go all the way and make it original), so I decided to have a touring engine built so that it could be a real driver. I did the body stock. I figured that I would put in as much new modern stuff that I could so that I could drive it at highway speeds and have a little more power, would be safe and anyone could drive it. Of course none of this stuff belongs on a Model A and I need to experiment in order to get it all working together. It is my understanding that the 6.1 head and the FSI electronic ignition can make the car run hotter. In addition to the touring engine I installed a complete Ron Francis wiring harness with a complete fuse box. Also put in front and rear LED signal lights. Everything is on its own fuse and has its own ground. Oh yeah, and air conditioning.


Today I talked to Dave at Evans Coolant regarding what I would consider to be “running too hot” and to discuss the cooling heat transfer capacity that MikeK mentioned. He is familiar with Model A’s and said that MikeK is absolutely correct. He then spent some time with me explaining in detail the difference between Evans Coolant and a water/antifreeze coolant. Since I am not an engineer I am unable to summarize what he said, since I can’t remember it, but there are several very positive reasons to use the Evans Coolant that made good sense so I am going to stick with it. The one change he did advise me to make is to remove the thermostat (which several of you also suggested).

As far as the timing goes, I spoke with Mel at FSI last month about how the engine was built and that the automatic advance at high RPM was over 30. He said that it is not suppose to be that high on a Model A so he sent me some special washers to put in the distributor to initially hold the advance weights out a little. He said that this would reduce the higher RPM advance down to where it should be and that when setting the initial advance at idle it can be set at 5 degrees advance rather than 0 or retarted a little. I have been playing around with that.

I have also just received several different size jets for the main and secondary since according to the plugs it is running too lean (which also makes it run hot). I have been driving it and then shutting off the engine and coasting into my driveway. I have been looking at #1 plug but now will check #3 as Logan suggests. Today put in 145 in main and 150 in secondary. Tomorrow I will test drive and see if performance has changed and if it is running richer.

If after doing all this if it seems that it is still running too hot then over the winter I will pull the radiator and have it cleaned. While the Brassworks radiator is relatively new it does have about 300 miles on it with the old engine that was probably just chocked full of rust and other junk that did not come out when I flushed it before installing the new radiator.

However, has anyone actually installed an electric fan?? I want to find out about them and if they do help at slow/high speed and how difficult they are to install.

Again, thank you all for your suggestions.

Mark

[Duffy1]

Snyders, Brattons and others have the fan schroud. IMHO,Parades are hard on model A`s . I do not drive my model A in parades.

[Jim/GA]

Ask about electric fans over on the HAMB. They do that sort of thing on the HAMB.

[Logan]

If I were you, I would start with bigger jets, and work your way down. My brothers motor is similar to yours, but his cam is a little hotter. I had 145-150 jets in it, and it was still a hair lean when city driving, not even on the open road. I decided that I'm tired of having to open up the carb every time to just "bump up" the jetting until I get it right, and having the car run lean in the process of me figuring it out. As of tonight it has 155-160 jets in the mains, and I will test it tomorrow. I figure it will probably be on the rich side, but better safe than sorry.

You will know if your radiator is pressurized if you fill the radiator from the back side of the top tank, instead of the normal filler neck on top of the radiator. The head and fsi distributor won't make it run hotter. It'll make it run cooler. With the timing adjusting automatically to your rpm, you're never running to far advanced or retarted for that rpm.

[1931 flamingo]

That 5 blade fan is not moving as much air as the orig 2 blade fan. As others have stated timing and running lean are contributing factors also. Are you losing coolant??
Paul in CT

[Smurkey]

Am I the only one that thinks 200 isn't too hot. Modern cars thermostatically controlled fans don't even kick on until 210-220 range and they're full of aluminum and thin castings.

Your mods probably bring the temp up a bit, but it sounds like they're within workable limits. Stands to reason that making more power=using more fuel=producing more heat.

Engines run most efficiently at higher temps (within reason) anyway, so unless you're boiling over I think you are fine.

Of course this doesn't answer your question...but I question whether you really even have a problem. Of course, this is just my humble opinion...

Steve

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...38029713768411
Proper Coolant Temperature and Camshaft Life!

Have you ever tried to find what proper coolant temperature is for most automotive engines? There are a lot of people who think they know, but it is difficult to find specifics, even in textbooks. We know we want the intake air to be as cold as possible (for best power) because cold air is denser (there are more oxygen atoms per cubic foot). The coolant temperature, however, is a different matter. The internal combustion engine changes chemical energy stored in gasoline into heat energy that is focused on the piston tops. If the cylinder heads and engine block are too cold, they will absorb much of the combustion heat before it can be used to push the piston down the cylinder. If the engine gets too hot, engine lubricants can break down, as well as overheating of the intake charge can lead to detonation, etc.

It turns out that coolant (usually a 50/50 mixture of coolant and water) has some fantastic properties that are ideal for use in engines. With a properly pressurized cooling system, coolant will not freeze until –30°F, and it won’t boil until +270°F (new oils don’t start to break down until well over 270°F). With these characteristics, engine designers have decided that engines should operate at approximately 210-215°F. Why, you ask? Well, it has to do with operating the engine at a high enough temperature to boil water out of the oil after the engine is cold started. If you have dew on the grass, it is certain that you have water in your oil, as the crankcase is open to atmospheric pressure! You can either remove the water by draining it out the bottom of the oil pan (remember the oil floats on water) or run the engine long enough and hot enough to boil the water out of the lubrication system. Years ago, coolants weren’t as sophisticated and engines were run at 165-180F, but the oil was changed every 1000 miles or so. That’s why many old timers think engines should run at 165-180F. Have you ever noticed that Ford doesn’t put temperature marks on their gauges? They just mark C for cold and H for hot and write “normal” through the center. If you hook up a scan tool to a GM, you will often find that the gauge reads much lower than the coolant temp sensor. That is because they know most drivers don’t understand how hot an engine should run.

So what does this have to do with camshafts? Many enthusiasts erroneously think that the colder their engine runs the better! If they are not running the engine hot enough to boil the water out of the oil, the oil becomes contaminated and the lifter/cam lobe interface is the highest load point in the engine. Engines running too cool can contribute significantly to camshaft and lifter failure. Think about it: What good does it do to use the most expensive synthetic oil and then run the engine so cold that it is contaminated by water vapor??!! Another point, piston manufacturers’ piston-to-wall clearance recommendations assume you will be running the fully warmed engine at 200°+F. Run the engine too cold, and you could see some scuffed pistons because the cylinders had not expanded enough to provide clearance.

If your engine will only run its best at the drag strip with the engine at 165°F, you probably have too cold of a spark plug heat range and you are probably jetted way too rich! If you keep the engine hot (not the intake charge), you will be using more of the heat energy in the gasoline to make power instead of just heating up your block. It does take “tuning know-how” to run an engine at 200-210°F, but you might be surprised how well and how long it runs when you do!! One final point - running a computer managed engine at 165°F compared to the factory 210°F will often cost you as much as 4 MPG. The reason for this is that the computer thinks that the engine is not off the “choke cycle” and it is still putting out a rich mixture! Check the science on this and don’t pay attention to the “old wives tales” of the past. Materials and lubricants are much better and different today than they were in the past!!

[Lembomw]

Found the radiator shrouds in Snyders, going to have to get one of those. Thanks

How do I get to the HAMB site?

Today I changed the jets to 145 and 150. Also had to put a leaner idle jet in. Bumped the timing a little to around 7 advanced. Removed the thermostat and went for a ride. Temp stayed under 190 under all conditions. When I got home I pulled the plugs and they finally looked like they should when the jets and timing are correct. Looks like the advice I got from you fellows and Dave at Evans coolant to take the thermostat out was the thing to do.

The 5 blade fan seems to be working OK , especially now that the thermostat is out. I was not losing any coolant. I have a 2 quart overflow bottle installed (at $48 a gallon for the Evans Coolant I don’t want to lose any of it). I filled the radiator up to the top then when the radiator finds its own level what it does not want goes into the bottle. When the engine is off and cools down some of it gets sucked back into the radiator. The next day when I look in the top of the radiator the coolant level is down almost to the bottom of the baffle. I think that is where most of the radiator coolant levels end up.

Since the numbers on the thermostat only go up to 190 I have no idea what the actual temp is when it needle goes into the “Danger Zone”. Since this is a new engine, I do not want to take any chances on getting everything too hot.

Thank you all for your input.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Lembomw

How do I get to the HAMB site?

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/

Originally Posted by Lembomw

Since this is a new engine, I do not want to take any chances on getting everything too hot.

Have you contacted the builder about your concerns as newly built engine can run a little hotter until they break in?