I know it works, but never understood how: Batt/Alt/Start

[roccaas]

The battery feeds power to the starter through the negative cable/post.

When the Alt/Gen takes over, HOW does it recharge the battery:

1. Alt/Gen>Junction Box>Ammeter>Junction Box>Starter>back up the negative cable to the battery?

OR

2. Alt/Gen>Frame/Block Ground>through the frame>positive cable to the battery?

If 1, does the negative cable change direction of flow to let the power back into the battery? How does this work if the battery is still providing a buffer to the whole electrical system, and could be feeding some power from the battery to the system?

If 2, is it the logical idea that electricity flows from positive to negative?

3. It's really just magic and little elves under the hood, so just accept it!

This whole theory is hard for me to grasp having grown up in an era of Negative Ground, but even in 1978 I was puzzling on this as I replaced (X3) the starter on my '73 LeMans!

[Mike V. Florida]

Generator through the ammeter to the battery

[PC/SR]

#1. Electrons in a solid metal flow from neg to pos. I heard/read somewhere that early expermenters going back to Ben Franklin and his kite got the flow direction wrong but the labels stuck.
That said, my other hobby is ham radio, and modern physics has complicated that simple theory. BAsically, it really is magic, with the little elves inside the wires making smoke that carries the current. When the smoke gets out, all the electrons go with it and the device doesn't work anymore. You may have noticed this yourself.

[eystein]

Actually it is both paths 1 and 2. In path 2 in the direction that you indicate and in path 1 in the opposite direction of what you indicate.

Current always flows in a closed loop.

Originally Posted by roccaas

The battery feeds power to the starter through the negative cable/post.

When the Alt/Gen takes over, HOW does it recharge the battery:

1. Alt/Gen>Junction Box>Ammeter>Junction Box>Starter>back up the negative cable to the battery?

OR

2. Alt/Gen>Frame/Block Ground>through the frame>positive cable to the battery?

If 1, does the negative cable change direction of flow to let the power back into the battery? How does this work if the battery is still providing a buffer to the whole electrical system, and could be feeding some power from the battery to the system?

If 2, is it the logical idea that electricity flows from positive to negative?

3. It's really just magic and little elves under the hood, so just accept it!

This whole theory is hard for me to grasp having grown up in an era of Negative Ground, but even in 1978 I was puzzling on this as I replaced (X3) the starter on my '73 LeMans!

[Rowdy]

View the terminal on the starter switch as an extention of the negative post and not as part of the starter. Other than a common ground the 2 systems are completely seperate until the switch is depressed. No current flows through the starter until the switch is depressed. Some people have a hard time with electricity and refer it all as PFM. Rod

[Tom Endy]

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An easy way to think about it, is in a DC circuit when there are two sources of power connected, the source with the higher voltage will assume the load. The battery is at 6.3 volts. The generator (or alternator) puts out a higher voltage and takes over the electrical load. It sees the battery as another load and sends current to it, which charges it up.

it works the same with a positive ground. Current is still flowing in the same direction, only with a different ground reference.

Tom Endy

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by PC/SR

#1. Electrons in a solid metal flow from neg to pos. I heard/read somewhere that early expermenters going back to Ben Franklin and his kite got the flow direction wrong but the labels stuck.

Even the schematic symbols are drawn "the wrong" way.

[Rock Hornbuckle]

As it is with all new discoveries, theory takes much convincing for it to become generally accepted. In the beginning we thought that all things physical must be positive, therefor Franklin labeled Lighting as Pos. and the ground (earth) as Neg. It wasn't until atomic theory was able to isolate the outer most electron on an atom (the valance ring electron) as negative charged and then realized that it was attracted to an atom that need an extra electron that we were able to show that the flow was neg. to pos.

[Tom Endy]

I recall an instructor during the first few weeks of navy electronics school telling the class: "The direction of current flow is a matter of theory since you can't see it. Here in the navy current flows from negative to positive. The air force may tell you it flows in the opposite direction, but you aint in the air force, so if you want learn anything in this school get it through your head current flows from negative to positive."

Tom Endy

[eystein]

I see nothing wrong with the defined direction of current flow. In fact it couldn't have been different.

Current is a transport of electrical charge. In the case of electrons in a wire, the charge being transported is negative. The direction in which they move must therfore be the opposite ( negative direction) of the direction of positive current flow. Two negatives multiplied ( negative charge times negative direction) gives a positive direction of current flow.

If we imagine that the electron had been a positively charged particle, it would have been moving in the same direction as the direction of positive current flow.

On the following I am a litte on thin ice, but I believe that where you have positively charged elements as for example positively charged ions in an electrolyte, they do actually move in the same direction as the positive direction of current flow.

[Sparky]

Originally Posted by roccaas

2. Alt/Gen>Frame/Block Ground>through the frame>positive cable to the battery?

If 1, does the negative cable change direction of flow to let the power back into the battery? How does this work if the battery is still providing a buffer to the whole electrical system, and could be feeding some power from the battery to the system?

Ignoring the whole positive-negative aspect, if the generator is providing more voltage than the nominal battery voltage, the battery will charge and the generator will be providing all the power for the car as well. I believe the battery will act as a "buffer" if you have an original generator; that's why you have to adjust your generator brushes to prevent too much current from "cooking" the cells. If you have an alternator the electronic regulator will control the voltage even if the battery is missing.

[Willie Krash]

I don't care which way it goes either Sparky.

The best way to deal with it is think plumping. Current is volume. A fire hydrant is a high current device. kids play in the water when they open them open. Voltage is push, the kids play as the volume is not being "pushed so much but raise the push/voltage it will knock the kids over and push them down the street. A squirt gun at it's pressure (voltage) and small volume (current) is harmless. Apply the squirt guns pressure to a fire hydrant and it can be lethal.
The battery is a filter or a condenser if you will. The generator is the pump to the battery, but like filling a tire you need higher pressure than what is in the tire. Like two tanks connected together, the tank with more water will feed the lower level.
This may seem an odd way to look at it but if you are unfamiliar with electricity you'd be surprised what you can do thinking of plumbing.
A bad connections is a clogged pipe. And open connection is I have water here in the pipe but not there so it's between the two points.
I hope I have not confused the issue.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Willie Krash

I don't care which way it goes either Sparky.

The best way to deal with it is think plumping. Current is volume. A fire hydrant is a high current device. kids play in the water when they open them open. Voltage is push, the kids play as the volume is not being "pushed so much but raise the push/voltage it will knock the kids over and push them down the street. A squirt gun at it's pressure (voltage) and small volume (current) is harmless. Apply the squirt guns pressure to a fire hydrant and it can be lethal.
The battery is a filter or a condenser if you will. The generator is the pump to the battery, but like filling a tire you need higher pressure than what is in the tire. Like two tanks connected together, the tank with more water will feed the lower level.
This may seem an odd way to look at it but if you are unfamiliar with electricity you'd be surprised what you can do thinking of plumbing.
A bad connections is a clogged pipe. And open connection is I have water here in the pipe but not there so it's between the two points.
I hope I have not confused the issue.

i too use plumbing lingo when im trying to explain something electrical to people. resistance is like lime buildup or corrosion in a pipe, a short is a water leak, an open is a pipe cap, valves are like switches, T's and 4 ways are like nodes or wirenuts.

there are the 2 different ways of looking at electricity and which way it flows: theres electron theory which is neg to pos due to an atom needing an electron.

then there's hole flow which is our usual standard of pos to negative because when an electron leaves one atom it leaves room for another free electron so there is a "hole" there for an electron to go. so if you look at it from the holes point of view thier going pos to neg haha.

[Rock Hornbuckle]

Originally Posted by roccaas

The battery feeds power to the starter through the negative cable/post.

When the Alt/Gen takes over, HOW does it recharge the battery:

1. Alt/Gen>Junction Box>Ammeter>Junction Box>Starter>back up the negative cable to the battery?

OR

2. Alt/Gen>Frame/Block Ground>through the frame>positive cable to the battery?

If 1, does the negative cable change direction of flow to let the power back into the battery? How does this work if the battery is still providing a buffer to the whole electrical system, and could be feeding some power from the battery to the system?

If 2, is it the logical idea that electricity flows from positive to negative?

3. It's really just magic and little elves under the hood, so just accept it!

This whole theory is hard for me to grasp having grown up in an era of Negative Ground, but even in 1978 I was puzzling on this as I replaced (X3) the starter on my '73 LeMans!

Your local community college or tech school will have a course in basic electricity. Well worth the time and money!

[Roadster62]

Read all the posts and haven't learned a thing, other than add one new electrical term that even Google doesn't have a defination for, so Rowdy what is PFM? I've always wondered if the electricaly gifted that understand the invisable are also more knowledgeable in thing religious? Bob

[Tom Wesenberg]

All I know is opposites attract, but I'm positive that I want a female that isn't negative.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

Read all the posts and haven't learned a thing, other than add one new electrical term that even Google doesn't have a defination for, so Rowdy what is PFM? I've always wondered if the electricaly gifted that understand the invisable are also more knowledgeable in thing religious? Bob

Pure f*****g magic

[Rowdy]

Mitch nailed it for sure.

Understanding and beleiving in something we can not see sure don't hurt with our religious beleifs. In both we can not see the proccess only the results. Difference is we can normally get things to go our way with electricity and we have to understand that we have no direct control over Gods actions. At times though both require prayer and patience. Rod

[Rock Hornbuckle]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

All I know is opposites attract, but I'm positive that I want a female that isn't negative.

The best thing I've seen all day!
Thanks Tom

[Roadster62]

Ok, finally an electrical term I can understand. All the electrical magic left my Dad's Roadster 30 years ago. Bob

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Pure f*****g magic