59A engine inspection

[36tbird]

I mentioned in another thread that I just picked up a 59A that I hope is good. It was already rebuilt by a place called Sun out of Phoenix back in the '60's I'm guessing. It is .040 over and .010/.010 on the crank according to the tag and confirmed looking at the pistons. So far I've found one burnt exhaust valve, #8, and a fingernail's thickness worth of ridge and a good amount of sludge in the pan.

I am going to pressure test the block next. If that looks good, I am toying with the idea of inspecting the rod and main bearings and if things are OK there, then maybe reassembling it with a metal timing gear to replace the fiber one it has, doing a valve job and get it running again. Obviously, I'm saying that I'm trying to go a cheap route to get this motor running again. I understand how plastigage works but have never done this job. What would be too much tolerance? Besides obvious galling of the bearings, what else should I be inspecting? Thanks in advance.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

You should try to shoot for .002 clearance on the rods and mains. Make sure you have someone do the valve job that know what they are doing. Walt

[Karl Wolf]

Magnaflux the area between the valve seats and the cyls, one of the problem areas that seems to show cracks the most often, in my opinion. Pressure test YES, but mag first... I use shim stock, or paper to check clearance- I don't like plastigauge... old Ford book says wear limmit of .005, rods and mains... Karl

[36tbird]

Stupid question, given that they are floating bearing on the rods, do you put the plastigage on the inside next to the crank or on the outside?

Also, if all the valves look OK besides the burnt one where I can see a part of it missing from the top, is it a matter of lapping everything again and just worrying about checking the lash on the one bad valve? Or, should I plan on having everything reground? In other words, how much do you lose with lapping? Like I said, I am trying to get this ol' horse running again on the cheap.

[dude]

I've used plastic gauge on a number of engines with good sucess. .003 would be outside limits and keep oil pressure. Magnaflux around valves is good ,but it won't tell you about crack in the exhaust runners,better to pressure test. Placement of gauge doesn't matter, as you are checking total clearance. good luck on your rebuild. by the way good luck on the cheap route thing,I didn't find the road map on that one.

[36tbird]

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Hey Dude, (easy for me to say as this is the way I usually reply to folks),
That is what I was thinking and why I bought one of Speedway's kits to do pressure checking. So, what about cam bearings? Seems to my feeble brain that is the main oil pressure reading influence on a flathead.

By the way, I know about the "roadmap" you're referring to. I have in the shop a completely machined block and all of the fixings to go in the roadster I'm building. I was hoping for a shortcut to assembling all of that with this motor just to get that project motivated under its own power. So, that is where I am coming from. Cheap, cheap, cheap...........

[40 Deluxe]

Your 'cheap route' was simply standard procedure 'back in the day' when these flatheads were just used cars and wages were maybe $1 an hour. After teardown, a visual inspection was it. Can't see any cracks from valve to cylinder? Good to go! No ring lands chewed up from broken rings? Good to go! No loud heavy knocks before you tore it down? Crank look smooth? New inserts and good to go! Ridge at top of cylinder? That's why everybody had a ridge reamer! Wrist pins sloppy loose? Buy oversize pins and head to the nearest garage to have the rods and pistons reamed to fit the pins. Valves? Grinding compound and a pogo stick did the job. Valve burned? Somebody was sure to have a good used one! The seats were usually OK after lapping, no need for a fancy machine shop job. Remember, stock flatheads were not high RPM engines like today, and the occasional puff of smoke and drip of oil was not cause for panic. Such a 'ring and valve job" would last maybe half as long as the original engine did (30,000 vs. 60,000). So, go the 'cheap route'! You'll enjoy it plus be amazed at how good it will run!

[Ross in East Texas]

My Dad had a garage in the 50's and I began helping in the shop when I was 8 or so. One of Dad's mainstays in his garage was the "In Chassis" overhaul. This is what is being described above plus Dad did provide a complete valve grind. The ring ridge was cut, cylinders deglazed and new rings installed. If the piston to cylinder clearance was excessive the pistons were knurled and oversize pins fitted when necessary. The bearings were either adjusted on babbit beaters or replaced and plasti-guaged to verify fit and all reassembled with a new tune up and it was ready for another many miles of service.
We did literally hundreds of these and had many satisfied customers. As 40 Deluxe said, these really ran well for many miles.

[fordy_nine]

I'm glad to see some old school common sense being applied once more. No use to make a spending contest out of this effort. Besides, we aren't gettin' any younger - Time's a 'wastin.......Bob L

[36tbird]

Update.
Finally got some time to do the pressure test of the block. I purchased one of the Speedway kits then based on suggestions here, I got a bunch of 1/2" nuts to use as spacers and some big washers to go with all of that. The spacers were required because I am trying to avoid pulling the studs. So, I cinched everything down using my trusty 3/8" drive air impact and put the air to it all, 40 pounds. Then with a spray bottle and WD40, I went searching for leaks. Saw leaks around the seal of the front covers for the water pumps and I think that was useful to recognize what leaks look like. Tightened up things and spraying around valve seats and cylinders revealed no leaks at 40 pounds. I think that we are doing good to recognize this old rebuilt flathead as a cheap runner.

Next, I am going to hit the lifter valley and crankshaft area with de-greaser and the pressure washer to blast out all of the built up gunk. Wish me luck, I will be wearing eye protection.

[36tbird]

'nuther update. Hit the ol'gal with a pressure washer after soaking the bottom end and lifter galley with de-greaser. Well, it kinda cleaned up. Also, shot the water jackets with the 1500 psi washer and got a lot of junk out of there. I never used it before, but I dug out my dad's ridge reamer and cut the ridges off. So, no more fingernail hang up evidence of wear. Following that, I was still wet and refreshed in the 90 degree heat from the pressure washer over spray, so I decided to check the main bearing clearances. Numbers 1 and 3 came out .002" on the plastigage with the middle lady at around .0035". So, I am enthused that the mains looked OK at less than .005" but I discovered a little ridge scour in one cylinder, #3, I think. Looks to me like the scour is minor enough to be honed smooth. So, I am now thinking of new rings and a hone job keeping the current .040" pistons. Thoughts, other things I should be checking? I do plan on plastigaging the rod bearings, but I am pleased that the mains checked out so well. Should I beware of drawing any conclusions in that correlation? Thanks, Lou

[dude]

Don't go crazy with the hone,just brake the glase. Ran a re-ring Chevy with pits for 10K with no smoke. Still running good went I sold it. Good luck on your project,I think you got a good'en.

[Mick/mo]

40 deluxe, ross/Texas, and fourty 9 ,You old boys are making to much sense . This has got to stop.LOL Mick/ Mo.

[dcnner]

Long story made short. I took my 59ab into a local machine shop for 30 overbore. Man called and said block has a problem and needs to go 60. NO addtional charge Hmmmm? I wondered. When I picked up the block I found an eyebrow cut into the no. two cylinder. Machinest said, oh I can clean that up with a peanut grinder. No, hell no I said, you need to fix this. He confessed his machince had gotten out of alignment on the first bore. After a moment I decided to leave with my block. I found a different shop and ended up a 125 over, had it ultrasonic checked. All was fine. By the way I ended up having the seats all replaced because the first shop did such a terrible job.
Find a reputible shop with referecnces. I found this idiot in the yellow pages. His shop was a mess, parts everywhere, piles of cranks and blocks. The second place who fixed all this was neat and organzied. I now look to see how clean the shop is when I go to a machine shop.
I guess what you really wanted to hear was that it is possible to go to 125 over.
david

[40 Deluxe]

Not all top-notch machinists are top-notch housekeepers; not all top-notch machinists are top-notch businessmen. They just enjoy taking your grungy, rusty lump of iron and making it better than new. Word-of-mouth advertising keeps them so busy that they never seem to get ahead of the accumulation of 'spare parts'. Don't ask "Do you know how to rebuild a flathead?" Ask: "How do you like working on flatheads?" Then listen and watch for signs of enthusiasm or lack thereof. Good machinists usually have a gearhead hobby, like sprint cars, late-models, drag racing, mud racing, etc. This shows an interest in doing quality work. Look for trophies and photos in the office.

[36tbird]

Regarding knocking the glaze off with a hone, what grit hone is good? Looking at those Flex-hones on the 'bay. Is 240 grit good? Thanks in advance.

[Ronnie]

A 120 to 180 flex hone will do you fine. Most machine shops sell them..
Most important is the cleaning of the cly walls when you are done .Wipe bores clean with a shop rag then Hot water and tide detergent and sponge and elbow grease will get all the honing residue out for a clean cylinder for you to proceed with.Wash it twice and check for how clean it is.Use white tissue paper and wd40 to test for the cleaning job.The tissue paper must come out clean no smudges if so re wash. Don't use solvent,gasoline,diesel fuel,or brake clean to wash the cylinders as it is a waste of time does more harm than good.

[Karl Wolf]

To check full floating bearings, check between the crank and the inside of the bearing, I use brass shim stock, or paper to see what clearances there are... This must be done with a bit of care... I don't like plastigauge all that much... I start with a small hammer, tap the big end of the rods and check the one with the lowest note- that one will have the most wear... Karl

[36tbird]

Finally got all the valves out. Took heavy doses of ATF and acetone followed by Kroil oil. Also, I am indeed blessed in that my high school best friend's dad who worked at a local Ford dealership back when dinosaurs roamed gave me all of his old Ford valve removal tools. It was hard enough to remove the keepers because I could not get a hold of the lip on the split half guides to pry them down. But, he gave me one of the keeper pry bars with the nipple that sticks into them. With that, you can pry that mother out without getting it down a bit. Once the keepers are out, the Ford valve guide knockout tool went into action. Getting that lined up to grab on to the bottom of a valve guide while resting on the top of a lifter journal is a bit of a wrestlethon, but when you begin slamming that weight down, it does some magic. (That tool needs some maintenance as the guide rod on top is coming out of the slammer sleeve. Those familiar with that device will know what I am talking about.) So, here I am, valves all loosened out and mains checked. And, I wanted to just replace the one burnt exhaust valve, but now I am thinking of replacing all with a new valve job. Question follows.

Lifters are hollow, valves were mushroom bottoms with split guides. Can I run later valves and guides with these lifters?

Also, ace in the hole, I have another 59A crank/bearings that came out of an engine that is documented as having only 200 miles. I may put that in with new rings and a valve job.

[Bassman/NZ]

I love this thread! Grass-roots mechanicking I've built quite a few flatties back in the 60s and 70s, and this is the way they were done.