starter motor shims

[hueyhoolihan]

the previous owner of my 1941 ford had a new starter motor and bendix installed. i've now determined that my hard starting problem was caused by the starter motor binding.

it's been verified by re-installing the old starter motor (i found it in the trunk) and noting that the starter would turn over the motor about twice as fast as the new one and for much longer.

upon disassembly of the new starter, i found about three or four shims on the shaft between it and the rear end of the starter housing.

does anyone have any idea as to go about adjusting the new starter's shims such that it will perform similar to the old one?

if you're wondering why i want to use the new one....well...the old one will only turn the motor over for about 7-10 seconds at a time. i could live with that, i guess, but i'd prefer not to.

the starter solenoid is new, as is the 6v optima battery, as are the 00 battery cables, as is the 6v voltage regulator.

[38 coupe]

This sounds strange, a starter motor should work for longer than 7 to 10 seconds. I don't remember finding shims in any of the starters I have worked on. Can you post pictures of what you have?

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

This sounds strange, a starter motor should work for longer than 7 to 10 seconds. I don't remember finding shims in any of the starters I have worked on. Can you post pictures of what you have?

they both look pretty much like this. they both weigh about 30-40lbs each.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/17722857724...id=22108036706

i removed the armature (accidently when removing it from the engine) from the housing containing the magnets and on the rear end of the shaft were three or four shims.

i'm assuming they are the cause of the binding, but it's only a guess. i suppose the new Bendix may be the culprit, IDK.

and when i researched a starter motor that would only turn over the engine for seven to ten seconds at a time and needed a second or two to try again, it responded with something about overheating. i'm at a loss to explain it, but it may have been the reason the new starter was installed in the first place. albeit with its own binding problem! oi vey!

[38 coupe]

I find that ebay add a bit disturbing. I highly doubt a quality starter can be made and retail that cheap. The bent bolt holding the brush cover in the pictures is evidence of my concerns. New is not necessarily better.

I recommend getting an original Ford starter reworked by a knowledgeable starter shop. Your original starter may be one, we don't know without more information.



Picture of cheap new ebay starter with bent bolt

[Bob C]

The parts book shows 2 18-11036 fiber thrust washers.

[hueyhoolihan]

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Originally Posted by 38 coupe

I find that ebay add a bit disturbing. I highly doubt a quality starter can be made and retail that cheap. The bent bolt holding the brush cover in the pictures is evidence of my concerns. New is not necessarily better.

I recommend getting an original Ford starter reworked by a knowledgeable starter shop. Your original starter may be one, we don't know without more information.



Picture of cheap new ebay starter with bent bolt

the picture was only for illustrative purposes... it's neither a pic of the old or new starter.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

I find that ebay add a bit disturbing. I highly doubt a quality starter can be made and retail that cheap. The bent bolt holding the brush cover in the pictures is evidence of my concerns. New is not necessarily better.

I recommend getting an original Ford starter reworked by a knowledgeable starter shop. Your original starter may be one, we don't know without more information.



Picture of cheap new ebay starter with bent bolt

[leon bee]

Kinda drifting off the topic here, but that Indian stuff, (like in the eBay listing) can be pretty sketchy. I've bought other-than-ford parts from over there- some are good, some you know how they are.

I've never had that problem of a starter which works then quits right away. Specially not with that Optima in there, those things kick *ss.

[Mart]

Try (with care) Shorting straight across the solenoid and see how long the starter runs for. In other words take the solenoid out of the equation.

Or you could use a jumper cable straight from the battery to the starter terminal to achieve the same.

[flathead48]

Normally I seen 1 shim on the starter armature, u need a little back & forth movement. 3 shims will bind it so it won’t turn or very hard turning. Just try the one than bench test it.

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by flathead48

Normally I seen 1 shim on the starter armature, u need a little back & forth movement. 3 shims will bind it so it won’t turn or very hard turning. Just try the one than bench test it.

ya, the "new" one had three at least shims that fell off the shaft when the armature was removed from the housing. the troubling thing is that i don't know whether a higher number of shims or a lower number will prevent it from binding.

normally i don't mind a bit of trial-and error to determine the root cause of a problem, but in this case, the removal and re-installation of the starter has shown itself to be a monumental task!

after further consideration...

i suppose a combination of common sense and expediency (seeing as that i don't have additional shims) would point toward removing a couple shims, eh?

[Mart]

Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan

i suppose a combination of common sense and expediency (seeing as that i don't have additional shims) would point toward removing a couple shims, eh?

Yeah.

[Tim Ayers]

Have had excellent luck with refurbished starters from NAPA.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Have had excellent luck with refurbished starters from NAPA.

I had a bad one from them a couple of years ago. I took it back, and they refunded the whole purchase amount, no questions asked. The fact that it was bad didn't bother me as much as the fact that they treated it like an everyday occurrence.

NAPA isn't NAPA any more, but then, what is? I still won't hesitate to use them.

[fortyonerag]

Just out of curiosity, how clean is the commutator, and how much meat is on the brushes?
Worth checking that the brush springs are not binding also.
Things might be marginal, and heat could contribute to starter alzheimer's.
On binding:
Just throwing it out there, buuuuut..... If the starter is binding, do you mean the bendix gear not fully pulling back and disengaging from the ring gear? If so, maybe you need more shims? Be worth checking the distance of the back edge of the ring gear to the starter mount plate and compare it to how far back the drive gear can go.

Check the ring gear on the flywheel also. I discovered the ring gear on my flywheel has a small section where it is 1/8" out of true. A mystery to me, but there it is.

[hueyhoolihan]

Originally Posted by fortyonerag

Just out of curiosity, how clean is the commutator, and how much meat is on the brushes?
Worth checking that the brush springs are not binding also.
Things might be marginal, and heat could contribute to starter alzheimer's.
On binding:
Just throwing it out there, buuuuut..... If the starter is binding, do you mean the bendix gear not fully pulling back and disengaging from the ring gear? If so, maybe you need more shims? Be worth checking the distance of the back edge of the ring gear to the starter mount plate and compare it to how far back the drive gear can go.

Check the ring gear on the flywheel also. I discovered the ring gear on my flywheel has a small section where it is 1/8" out of true. A mystery to me, but there it is.

the nature of the binding is unknown to me, but the bendix was a new one on the new starter and did sound as though it was engaging and disengaging properly, but laboring mightily to turn the engine over. when the old starter with its old bendix was put back on the engine the other day, i found that it turned the engine over at a much greater speed (as i hoped it would) and the battery now turns it over for a much, much longer time before it becomes so run down that it needs recharging.

and i'm afraid that because the replacement of the new starter and bendix, with the old starter and its old bendix has proved to be such a major improvement, and because removing and replacing the starter is such a arduous job for me, i will gladly suffer its tendency to stop cranking, for a moment, after about 5-10 seconds on occasion. as the engine needs, most often, less than a second of cranking to start even when cold.

[fortyonerag]

Sounds like the starter you replaced was either 'Happy Lucky Rooster Brand' or 'Dancing Peacock Brand'.

Ask me how I know......