There's no profit in it...

['29 Pickup]

Originally Posted by Klattu1929

I can focus on the A and forget about all the crazy things going on in the world. Keep up the good work. One day soon I'll drive my A down the road!!

I hear ya Klattu....last night I spent many happy hours watching removal and re-build of a Model A gearbox and a re-build of a water pump. I rarely watch the news these days.

Good luck with your re-buid.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Antique cars are not financial investment material.

I think Jay Leno would disagree......

RARE antique car prices rise every year. Model As for the most part are not rare and more of a common man collectible. This makes them affordable. The fact that the collectors that restored the cars in the 60s and 70s are aging out means there are nice cars available in a buyers market.

One's ability to do their own QUALITY work will determine the value of a restoration when finished. Wavy bodywork and spraycan finishes will not pull top dollar. If you have to hire out even 50 hours of work at a $100 an hour shop rate you've just dropped 5 grand into the project that you probably won't get back.

At 74 I'm not starting anymore restorations. But if I was 30-50 I'd get something rare but with a big enough following to have some club/parts/tech support. Expending the same effort on that car would yield a better return. Yes it is all relative. Packard pistons cost more than Model A ones but the finished engine is also worth more.

[Bruce of MN]

My cousin's neighbor has a '32 Stutz Monte Carlo that his Dad bought in '48 as a daily driver. The straight 8 exhaust manifold was cracked and he arranged for eight to be cast and sold off seven of them. You can bet that cost more than one of ours!

[Chris in WNC]

when people inquired about the cost of keeping and driving a Model A, I always replied that it was much less expensive than golf or having a boat and for me much more enjoyable......

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by '29 Pickup

I read a comment recently, somewhere, I cannot recall where.
It was along the lines of..."there's no point in restoring a Model A because you will almost certainly not get back all of the money you put into it".
This has been on my mind as I embark on a restoring a barn find. Am I a fool? Is this what smarter people instantly avoid?

No one has answered your questions specifically yet, so I'll step up and try.

1. No, not a fool as long as your goal is to enjoy the process. Working on a car (any worthwhile project, really) is a way to take a short mental vacation from everyday life and do something with your hands and mind that gives you a feeling of a accomplishment and satisfaction. And it's always less expensive than a therapist.

2. "Smarter people" don't do anything fun. Fun costs money/time. As others have said, if you are doing this to make a financial profit, then that might be foolish. However, if you're doing this for the satisfaction or joy of it, then that makes you the smartest one of all.

Couple years ago, I sold a Model A for $25K. I was in it $40K. However, it made room for another Model A that my wife really wanted. Now, my wife has her own and we enjoy wrenching on it together and she enjoys driving it. I get to look over my left shoulder and see the woman I fell in love with in jr. high school driving a car she loves and enjoying it. That's definitely worth the money I "lost" and much more.

[Big hammer]

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[Keith True]

A couple up the road from me commented on how much the old cars must cost me.I said,how much do you think you've given me over the last 30 years for your horse hobby?Bush hog work,tree removal,manure removal and disposal,R&R 6 inches of the barn floor dirt every couple of years,burying quite a few horses over the years,blast and paint their horse trailers a few times,maintaining the tow vehicle and trailer,chasing frozen water lines and chewed up wiring,and that's just me.No clue how much it costs to feed and provide health care for them.We guessed that I could have bought three,maybe four Model A's with what they paid me over the years.If I run out of money I can park my cars in the barn and ignore them for a while.They can't do that with their animals.

[Wick]

Yes you can turn a profit.
This 31 Slant windshield i can get for 5k
Delivered. Runs and drives. I'll tune it up, hoses,belt,fluids.
The 29 i picked up in 2020 for $4,500 Battery, fluids, hoses,tires then a week to detail it. Gone.
The 31 with the trunk, came with a rebuilt engine, air conditioning, Mitchell overdrive and a great touring engine
Gave $8K. I'm keeping this one.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by '29 Pickup

I read a comment recently, somewhere, I cannot recall where.
It was along the lines of..."there's no point in restoring a Model A because you will almost certainly not get back all of the money you put into it".
This has been on my mind as I embark on a restoring a barn find. Am I a fool? Is this what smarter people instantly avoid?

Can I ask you a question?? Excluding a few CCCA eligible vehicles, -how many vehicles can you name that you can buy at fair market value, truly restore it properly, and then being ethical when you sell it can you actually get a ROI??

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Can I ask you a question?? Excluding a few CCCA eligible vehicles, -how many vehicles can you name that you can buy at fair market value, truly restore it properly, and then being ethical when you sell it can you actually get a ROI??

You've framed this question so the answer has to be zero. The OP's question was really two questions put together:

1. Is Model A restoration a financially profitable activity?

2. What is the expected asset performance of the Model A when it is bought, improved, and sold?

The answer to #1 is obviously no, unless you're a full-time restoration shop (and even then....). The answer to #2 is complicated, but it's broadly true that the A behaves like other kinds of property. There are opportunities for arbitrage, the price fluctuates according to laws of supply and demand, it depreciates if not maintained, and the ROI for improvements to the asset varies substantially.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

You've framed this question so the answer has to be zero. The OP's question was really two questions put together:

1. Is Model A restoration a financially profitable activity?

2. What is the expected asset performance of the Model A when it is bought, improved, and sold?

The answer to #1 is obviously no, unless you're a full-time restoration shop (and even then....). The answer to #2 is complicated, but it's broadly true that the A behaves like other kinds of property. There are opportunities for arbitrage, the price fluctuates according to laws of supply and demand, it depreciates if not maintained, and the ROI for improvements to the asset varies substantially.

1. Yes, it depends on who is doing the restoration work.

2. It has been my experiences over the years that this is basically a percentage ratio thingie, ...but a top level (-doesn't need to be a Fine-point accurate, but high quality full restoration) in today's market will likely cost the Restorer about $30k - $40k if (s)he does most of the work themselves. A top-level Model-A will sell for $40k if the bodystyle is a popular one.

Comparatively, the same style body on a hypothetical V-16 Cadillac or Lincoln will be in the $30k - $50k unrestored, -and to do the majority of the restoration work yourself but outsourcing engine & mechanical rebuild, upholstery & trim, britework, etc., restoration costs will likely be in the $150k range to finish with an equal-quality restoration. So the sales price of the Cad or Lincoln (-again, depending on bodystyle) will be in the $175k - $200k range. Therefore this is not really a profitable venture for the hobbyists either. Then as the rarity of the vehicle goes up, the quality level of the restoration needs to follow suit for the vehicle to fetch true value. Even owners of Pebble-level vehicles are generally upside down in their vehicle financially, however they usually are not looking for an immediate ROI. So again, very few vehicles can be restored with a ROI as the focus.

[gdmn852]

Hello, a friend of mine once asked me what car he could buy and make money on ? I said none ! Remember when in 1976 the last convertible was being built, 1976 Eldorado Cadillac. Some were bought and never driven waiting for big return on “ investment “ . I also have a 1971 MGB and in the local British club, venturing to say all members have more in their Triumphs, MGs , and similar cars than they are worth. As said throughout this thread, it’s a hobby, I enjoy getting up at sunrise in summer,with dew still on ground, traveling on the rural backroads, but still keeping an eye out for deer , how much is that in $$$$?

[gdmn852]

Here’s a couple of more money losing “investments “

[Seth Swoboda]

You do it because you love it and enjoy the process. Oh, and you probably have some discretionary income.

[Gene F]

These comments are all correct. I bought a quart of paint for the hood of my Marquis this past year. Nothing special, I got it at Sherwin-Williams Automotive Finishes store. A can of reducer, activator, disposable respirator. I had sandpaper, and roughed up the existing stained finish. I had like $260 just in that. Think how much it would cost just to spray a car. Tires seem to be expensive these days too. If you need a radiator they are pretty expensive. Pretty expensive to get an interior put in these days. I don't like the kits now that L/B is closed. To me the other (kits) stuff (are) is like sitting on a burlap sack. It all adds up.

I always feel like the rule of thumb is if you restore a car figure you can get 50 cents on the dollar if you want to sell it. Better odds, and cheaper to buy a better car to start with.

[ronn]

Can I ask you a question?? Excluding a few CCCA eligible vehicles, -how many vehicles can you name that you can buy at fair market value, truly restore it properly, and then being ethical when you sell it can you actually get a ROI??



only cars where you come ahead, Ferrarri, Porsche Duesey , Mercer etc. where demand outseeds supply. rare priceless cars always bring $, but not many have that kind of $ to begin with. Most anyone can afford an A. rich and poor alike.

[alexiskai]

Lots of posts on this thread saying it's not about the money, and I suppose that's a helpful thing to tell yourself after spending a lot of money, but it is not unreasonable to care (a lot!) about opportunity costs. $40,000 spent on a car is $40,000 you can't spend on travel or grandkids or retirement.

I paid way below market rate for both of my cars and I'm pretty happy about that. Everyone has a story about the NOS item they bought for a song at a swap meet. Bargain-hunting has been an undercurrent in the Model A hobby from day one. Often that leads to making short-sighted choices that the next owner of your car will have to cope with, and we try to discourage that and that's fine. But it's unrealistic to act as if people don't get satisfaction out of saving money. Trying to get the best restoration possible for the least money is a perfectly reasonable way to participate in the hobby, and ideally it motivates you to learn new skills so you can do things yourself.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by Wick

Yes you can turn a profit.
This 31 Slant windshield i can get for 5k
Delivered. Runs and drives. I'll tune it up, hoses,belt,fluids.
The 29 i picked up in 2020 for $4,500 Battery, fluids, hoses,tires then a week to detail it. Gone.
The 31 with the trunk, came with a rebuilt engine, air conditioning, Mitchell overdrive and a great touring engine
Gave $8K. I'm keeping this one.

Those prices are not available in SoCal for more than 10 minutes. The Craigslist vultures scoop them up from the heirs then offer them for $25-30 grand the following day.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

Those prices are not available in SoCal for more than 10 minutes. The Craigslist vultures scoop them up from the heirs then offer them for $25-30 grand the following day.

They’re not available on this coast either. To get those prices you gotta be a picker, go out and find the cars, talk to people, go to auctions, make a lot of offers. It’s work.

[Clem Clement]

The friends we have made and the stories/activities we have participated in were what we live on as old age kicks in. I would have missed a second of the like... One day somehow my electric fire-eyed toy rat got loose and e-crawled over a bud's shoe... The next morning finds a fake snake wrapped around my steering wheel. Then Donnie jumped in his and it don't go as a wheel is not touching the ground>. I'm still checking on what happened... In tour we never got once losted! Worn out laughing: YES. I was chief of maintenance for two National tours. Marvelous sharing of knowledge and experience. Between fixings we held training sessions like adj, of headlights, tuneup etc. For the senior guys, I put several steering fittings together and asked the guys to feel the tightness and comment: I played with that for years. I always carried spare parts. And then there is flash, whose muffler clamp fell off and set a cornfield afire,,,
Clem