gas tanks.........

[ronn]

I know this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, but I am curious at the response it might bring...........

I dont know how to set up a survey, but the questions would be..........

Would one prefer a newly made gas tank or a perfectly cleaned tank?

price points? which yrs preferred, 28-29 or 30-31?

What would one be willing to pay for each?

Just seeing what the true demand would be and again, could this be a cottage industry for someone on the Barn? The legal ramifications could be discussed at a later date.

It may not be feasible, but inquiring minds want to know............

any other questions one can think of on this topic?

[oldspert]

It would be my preference to have a new gas tank, IF it would fit properly and look exactly like the factory tank. Knowing that might be an impossible task, even with new manufacturing methods, I might rather have a good and well cleaned old tank that came off of the car.
Ed

[Tom F OHIO]

If your thinking about having Model A gas tanks available and like said as long as they fit good and look like original you would have a money maker. I know a guy that would buy one now as long as the price isn't outrageous.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ronn

I know this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, but I am curious at the response it might bring...........

I dont know how to set up a survey, but the questions would be..........

Would one prefer a newly made gas tank or a perfectly cleaned tank?
Your question depends on whether the newly made tank is aesthetically correct, -or just something that will work. As far as preference, I think most people would prefer a correctly restored original over an inaccurate reproduction, ...especially if the correctly restored original tank is less money than the reproduction unit.

price points? which yrs preferred, 28-29 or 30-31?
All totalled, I think there were 7 different variations of A gas tanks made. So there really isn't just a 28/29 vs. 30/31 'one size fits all' tank.

What would one be willing to pay for each?
Likely a complete repro tank would be in the $2500.00 - $3000.00 range. Maybe even more for the 28 & 29 tanks.

Just seeing what the true demand would be and again, could this be a cottage industry for someone on the Barn? The legal ramifications could be discussed at a later date.
This would definitely NOT be a cottage industry for someone IMHO.


To begin with, the sheer amount of tooling costs for stamping all of the new tank pieces would very easily exceed $1M. Then, building the fixturing and jigs, -and purchasing automated welding equip. and pressure testing (Q/C) equipment would be another great expense.

Because of set-up time, a minimum run of each tank would likely be 50 stampings of each piece, but lets just say you cut that to 25 units. 25 units X 7 types of tanks at say $2k per tank is around $350k on inventory costs. Then you have warehousing space to pay for. FWIW, I generally keep about 20 (+/-) core gas tanks in inventory at any given time. To put things into perspective, I have an 8' long by 16' tall pallet rack dedicated to just storing them (see pix below). Its gonna take a decent sized little cottage to store those 150+ new tanks. ;D

It may not be feasible, but inquiring minds want to know............

any other questions one can think of on this topic?

I think your questions are good, -but maybe a tad vague on providing enough info to have accurate answers. Note my Red above...

.

[old31]

Based on what Brent is saying we will probably make do with the old tanks. I dont think the payback is there for the manufacturer.

[ThirstyThirty]

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Originally Posted by old31

Based on what Brent is saying we will probably make do with the old tanks. I dont think the payback is there for the manufacturer.

vintage tin for me! last sentence probably true... aside from an independent's 'labor of love!'

however, Brookville has carved out a nice niche bending new tin to be old tin.

[ronn]

so from what youve stated Brent, obvious answer is to rebuild old tanks........

now regarding the seven different tanks, could you elaborate a bit when you have a chance? would all seven be necessary or would it fall back and work on just 3-4 diff tanks?
Obviously the model matters, and so there might be room to alleviate a couple?

so Tom, what price is good and what is outrageous? Stating a rebuilt original?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ronn

so from what youve stated Brent, obvious answer is to rebuild old tanks........

now regarding the seven different tanks, could you elaborate a bit when you have a chance? would all seven be necessary or would it fall back and work on just 3-4 diff tanks?
Obviously the model matters, and so there might be room to alleviate a couple?

so Tom, what price is good and what is outrageous? Stating a rebuilt original?

Gonna try to rattle them off by memory.

1928 with no ribs on integral firewall. 1928 w/ ribs on firewall but with choke rod bracket down under tank. 1928/29 tank with relocated choke rod bracket. 1929 style tank w/ twist gas cap. 1930 tank with Oval speedo. 1930/31 tank with round speedo and steering column support bracket. (-also 1931 tank with round speedo but sans steering column bracket) 1931 tank with fuel valve in engine compartment.

[ronn]

old31, yes that seems correct. Dont think a new tank is an option, even at half of what Brent is mentioning.

[Flathead]

Just the potential liability issues for the manufacturer would be daunting.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Flathead

Just the potential liability issues for the manufacturer would be daunting.

Not really factual. Many reproduction tanks are made for Ford cars (Model-T, E-V8 years, Mustang, etc.), and there are aftermarket tanks made for many other brand of cars, so it really isn't the liability issue that prevents the Model-A tank being manufactured. It is the lack of ROI.

[rotorwrench]

Differences aside, the only part that is even close to gas tanks that is available in the top cover that is made for the current production roadster bodies from Brookville. Look at the price for that one part and you can guess what it will take to fabricate the whole thing in any of the different revisions. The original tanks took more that 12 large pressing operations to make the basic sheet metal parts. The inlet, fuel quantity, and outlet bungs plus the brackets and reinforcements are another thing. This hasn't even accounted for the internal baffles. I would guesstimate that it could cost near $1K just to make a basic tank. That could put the overall cost to a customer even higher. If it's not profitable then no company will take the risk. As far as liability is concerned the sky is the limit and I don't mean that in a good way. A person can get a release of liability to repair an old one but an all new part is a different story. It would be safer just to make and sell the sheet metal parts and let the end user be responsible for assembly.

If I had pressing equipment access like Brookville and Mac Hils then I would likely try to design one that could be taken apart for service instead of welding it all together like Ford did. Modern sealants are such that it may be feasible to do it that way with good success. This would allow for future repairs and resealing if needed.

[ronn]

Brent, great job on naming the 7. so would it be possible to narrow that down to 3-4?

lets think driver, not fine points here. I see what you mean by the speedos, but I am thinking more generically. The liability isnt necessarily of concern, if the producer has nothing to lose........ think LLC and then Trust.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ronn

Brent, great job on naming the 7. so would it be possible to narrow that down to 3-4?

lets think driver, not fine points here. I see what you mean by the speedos, but I am thinking more generically. The liability isnt necessarily of concern, if the producer has nothing to lose........ think LLC and then Trust.

About the only way you could narrow them down is to start with the tank that would have the highest request for. I am guessing the 1928-29 Tank that has the choke bracket in upper location would be most needed. Next would be the 1930 tank with the oval speedometer. The 3rd would be a 1931 tank for indented firewall.

The term 'Driver' is something that has ruined this hobby IMO. These cars have always been "drivers" meaning they were originally intended to be driven. Modifying something and then calling it a "Driver" because the modification was done half-assed should not be an accepted for labeling it as a driver. Either manufacture something that is correct, -or don't bother. It is not good for the overall hobby because most cheap parts or modifications fail prematurely which gives the entire hobby a bad reputation. Think about how many potential hobbyists complain that a Model-A won't stop and the steering is junk. The problem is they formed their opinion after being around a piece of junk Model-A and they just do not know what a good Model-A drives like.

The Liability would definitely come into play and should be considered a must, however buy the insurance policy. That insurance premium just needs to be rolled into the costs of production on each tank.

[32Ford13]

I would prefer the new tank after going through the Gas Tank Renu process and repaint. Cost would be an issue though.

[David in San Antonio]

It appears that automated sheet metal forming as an alternative to stamping is becoming a reality. The current offerings use a robotic arm holding a spherical tool to progressively deform sheet metal. The process continually tap tap taps the sheet metal while sensors observe its progress and compare it to the computerized model held in memory.
The companies building these machines claim they can form any type of sheet metal. I have no idea what the current limits are, but if 3D printing and CAD-CAM are any indication these machines will get better and less expensive as industries learn how to adapt them to their needs. I picture job shops which will do the forming on contract so each business does not need to own the latest model. If the pipeline is fairly quick (big if) it could reduce the need for inventorying a wide range of parts. Instead they could be “print on demand”. Of course, this currently creates parts, not entire assemblies. So the fuel tank would still need to be welded (or glued) together.
Welcome to the second quarter of the 21st century. Old Henry would resist the whole thing, but Edsel might embrace it.
https://industryinsider.eu/metalwork...g-sheet-metal/

[rotorwrench]

The OEM tanks were close to 1/16" thickness. The thicker it is, the harder it is to form. The 28/29 had the extra upper firewall piece which would be easier to form than the bottom section that includes the dash face. The baffles are relatively flat so easier to form. I would use draw quality steel if I did it by hand methods. It would be a lot of work and welding to do it that way. Better to repair an original if it's not too rusty.

I don't know much about the robotic method but it would be interesting to know what the limitations would be for such equipment.

[ronn]

well, this discussion is what I am looking for.

Brent, maybe I should have phrased that differently. Not looking to put garbage on the road, but not thinking fine points either. That is where you come in.

Lets face it, most people are happy with a #2 car and not looking to win at the cost of 1% of 1%. that is what I mean by driver. A #2 car.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ronn

well, this discussion is what I am looking for.

Brent, maybe I should have phrased that differently. Not looking to put garbage on the road, but not thinking fine points either. That is where you come in.

Lets face it, most people are happy with a #2 car and not looking to win at the cost of 1% of 1%. that is what I mean by driver. A #2 car.

Ronn, understand what I am seeing in the industry from the Service industry side and not the Consumer side.

This forum is a great example of what I am seeing within the hobby. The foundation of this Forum is to discuss the repair of a Model-A, -and the fill-in would be the overall discussion of Model-As in general (vintage photos, tours, etc.) If we are being brutally honest here, what would you say by percentage of members here actually do the majority of restoration/repair work on their Model-A? If there are 5,000 Fordbarn members here, do we think there are 500 participating members that actually do the work? Take a moment to actually count up the participants who contribute here based on their first-hand knowledge. I think we would struggle to list names for even half of that 500 number, ...but for the sake of this, lets say there are 2,000 ppl out of the 5,000 members. That is 20%. So 20% of the membership can do the necessary work to Restore, Repair, or Maintain their Model-A. The rest generally rely on the expertise of friends or repair shops.

Now of that remaining 80% of Model-A owners, they might attempt the most basics of tasks (changing oil, spark plugs, etc.) but again, their lack of skillset and/or repair tools prevents them from getting too advanced, ...therefore they reach out to many cottage shops or small Model-A repair shops around the country to meet their needs. Now here is the struggle due to expectations.

For us, the most frustrating thing I hear out of clients is they paid money for a brand new item and then the mechanic must re-work that item to make it serviceable. It doesn't matter if it is an Ammeter or a Fender, it likely requires major additional work to make it serviceable. To the average participant here, this probably is not that big of a deal, ...but to the 80% of Model-A owners out there, it IS a big deal They want something that is correct and serviceable straight out of the box. So your comment about making a one-size-fits-all gas tank is likely going to be met with criticism.

Now, since we have mentioned 'cottage industries', let me explain this scenario as it pertains to the Model-A hobby in 2025....
There is a need right now for reliable retired people doing small piecemeal or niche jobs within the hobby. Since this topic is about gas tanks, -there is a need for someone to do tanks. I have basically quit taking on tanks because we were getting so many tanks we could not meet the demands and still focus on what our main job is. I am not going to mention a name, but a good friend of mine who is a contributor here was professionally rebuilding Model-A steering gearboxes for major retailers until it was interfering with his regular business. He has given steering gearboxes up now.

Now I want to be crystal clear in prefacing this by saying, there are more than a few 'rebuilders' out there whose work is less than adequate. You find these guys on social media, eBay, etc. peddling their 'Rebuilt' distributors or carburetors, shocks, brakes, etc. as Rebuilt. Their workmanship sux!! I doubt these Rebuilders actually have the ability, the skillset, nor the tooling to return those items to a condition equal to factory specifications however they convince their customer of that by a coat of shiney paint. The equally troubling problem is the Buyers has no idea whether the 'rebuilt item' is functioning correctly after it has been installed.

So my point is, if someone wants a cottage industry to supplement retirement income, then find original items and correctly restore to factory specifications (-to Fine Point terms by some) and you will have more work than you can do.

[CT Jack]

My thoughts are based on previous personal engineering experience relative to component development, manufacture, and automation. The business incentive and the final product market price for making a new replacement gas tank would be based on the size of the market potential and the cost to develop and manufacture a new replacement. Some of the previous posts mention the cost to develop the tooling and fabrication would be substantial to produce a new replacement tank which I concur with. The actual size of the market seeking a gas tank replacement would not be large enough to enable the unit selling price to be offered at a reasonable level.
Many owners of model A's including myself have used the tank sealer approach for resolving tank corrosion related problems. This method has proven to work quite well and is much less expensive when compared to considering a new replacement.