Paint question

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

Who's doing the painting?

If it's you, 2 stage is way more toxic and requires more gear.


The paint is much more expensive. Durability is fantastic.

If you go 2 stage it will show more flaws in the prep than single stage. So either more fastidious work or more dollars if you hire someone for 2 stage. No point in a mirror finish when it accents all the flaws you left in the surface. Done well, it's an amazing paint. It just won't look 30's era whatsoever.

2 stage is a harder paint, meaning tougher to scratch once fully cured. Good on the scratch resistant side. Bad on the repair side. Takes more skill and time to repair 2 stage, and a halo often results in bright sun at the repair spot.

Just curious, where are you getting this information? By chance, are you a certified applicator (painter)??

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Just curious, where are you getting this information? By chance, are you a certified applicator (painter)??

I'm an experienced but not expert non-professional. I've worked with numerous clear finishes, polyurethanes, 2 part linear polyurethanes, and enamels.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

I'm an experienced but not expert non-professional. I've worked with numerous clear finishes, polyurethanes, 2 part linear polyurethanes, and enamels.

Ok. Why I ask is I am a PPG Gold certified shop that also has a certification in the Axalta brand. Unfortunately, my experience with automotive BC/CC and Single-stage paints counters much of what you have stated above in red.

Any paints that use a catalyst to start the paint's curing process will generally include Isocyanates. From my experiences, the basecoat of the 2-stage paints do not use any hardener however both the clearcoat, -and the single-stage topcoat both contain Isocyanates which will typically affect breathing and the nervous system of anyone exposed to it without proper PPE. Therefore neither type of paint is really less toxic than the other. Both will kill you without using proper PPE.

Generally speaking, it is the BC/CC paint system that is cheaper, -and not the single-stage paint as you indicated. In a single-stage paint system, you are using pigment in each of the coats whereas in a BC/CC system, the only toners or pigments that are used is in the base. This is the main reasoning why the automotive industry uses BC/CC paint today.

IMHO, any flaw will show equally whether using single-stage or BC/CC. Maybe not to an untrained eye, however shrinkage, waviness, dents, orange-peel, etc. will show in either type paint when used.

The shell of any catalyzed paint is a direct result of the type product used in the catalyzation process. I can make a single-stage paint such as PPG's DCC line (Concept) have a much stronger shell than their typical clear will have in the DBC (Deltron) line simply by using their DFX11 hardener instead of their DCX hardeners. There was a wives tale floating that some painters chose to mix a splash of clear in their final topcoat as a way to increase the durability, however the PPG engineers have disputed that to me multiple times at classes I have attended.

I will also share with you that using any type of clear or finish coat that has an extremely hard shell typically suffers from trapped solvents which come back to haunt the job later. Sure, it colorsands very well and buffs quickly, but I am in it for longevity and not quick production work.

One final point is that BC/CC can be made to look like Nitrocellulose Lacquer by using PPG's SLV4985 to tone it down. Even the blending issues that once plagued the clearcoat paints by creating the 'halo effect' are now almost non-existent due to specifically made solvents. As I tell people, things change month-by-month in the paint refinish industry, -and so what you may have learned about paint products 6+ months ago is often obsolete in today's paint products.

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Any paints that use a catalyst to start the paint's curing process will generally include Isocyanates. From my experiences, the basecoat of the 2-stage paints do not use any hardener however both the clearcoat, -and the single-stage topcoat both contain Isocyanates which will typically affect breathing and the nervous system of anyone exposed to it without proper PPE. Therefore neither type of paint is really less toxic than the other. Both will kill you without using proper PPE.
This is a nomenclature issue, I referred to single stage meaning traditional enamels, etc. Yes, isocyanates are nothing to be casual about, which is why they are more equipment critical. We're saying the same thing.

Generally speaking, it is the BC/CC paint system that is cheaper, -and not the single-stage paint as you indicated. Hasn't been my experience. Any catalyzed paint cost me more, as did any solvent, prep wipe and reducer.


IMHO, any flaw will show equally whether using single-stage or BC/CC. Maybe not to an untrained eye, however shrinkage, waviness, dents, orange-peel, etc. will show in either type paint when used.
Higher gloss = more depiction of surface imperfections. Plus, with a separate clear coat you have more chance of dust or hair to be imbedded in the film and since it's clear, you see it.

You're answering from a professionally equipped painter point of view, so some nomenclature varies, and infrastructure varies. Obviously a well designed spray booth will yield better results regardless of the type of paint. The decision not only is rested in what paint, but who and where it will be applied. What paint is good in the booth might not be as good outdoors, or in a garage, even for skilled DIY. Toxicity, rate of drying, lighting, insects, airborne contaminants, and skill all play a role.

We don't know if he's planning on doing any work himself, or is going to have everything professionally done. Lot's of backyard hobbyist painters out there.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

You're answering from a professionally equipped painter point of view, so some nomenclature varies, and infrastructure varies. Obviously a well designed spray booth will yield better results regardless of the type of paint. The decision not only is rested in what paint, but who and where it will be applied. What paint is good in the booth might not be as good outdoors, or in a garage, even for skilled DIY. Toxicity, rate of drying, lighting, insects, airborne contaminants, and skill all play a role.

We don't know if he's planning on doing any work himself, or is going to have everything professionally done. Lot's of backyard hobbyist painters out there.

WOW!! Actually, if we go back and re-read his question, he only asked for the paint code for Copra Drab and Chicle Drab in either single-stage or in BC/CC.

Pretty sure he did not ask for opinions about whether he should go with BC/CC or Single-stage. With all due respect towards you, it would appear you are the one that assumed he was not an experienced painter. Again, if I am correct, all he was asking for was paint codes. Additionally, I understand the refinish industry enough to know that if I have a code for a mix in BC/CC, then I generally can convert that mix to a Single-stage line, -and visa-versa.

The only reason I chose to get involved in this post is I questioned the validity of your statements which I felt some were kinda misleading or non-factual. While your comments may not apply to the original poster, you never know who else might read your comments and assume you were knowledgeable enough in the topic to follow your advice. As you stated, lots of backyard painters out there ...who may not know the facts from fiction, and we would not want to mislead them with misinformation, -would we? My intent is not to belittle you or embarrass you however posting factual information when possible should always be our goal.

[McMimmcs]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Ok. Why I ask is I am a PPG Gold certified shop that also has a certification in the Axalta brand. Unfortunately, my experience with automotive BC/CC and Single-stage paints counters much of what you have stated above in red.

Any paints that use a catalyst to start the paint's curing process will generally include Isocyanates. From my experiences, the basecoat of the 2-stage paints do not use any hardener however both the clearcoat, -and the single-stage topcoat both contain Isocyanates which will typically affect breathing and the nervous system of anyone exposed to it without proper PPE. Therefore neither type of paint is really less toxic than the other. Both will kill you without using proper PPE.

Generally speaking, it is the BC/CC paint system that is cheaper, -and not the single-stage paint as you indicated. In a single-stage paint system, you are using pigment in each of the coats whereas in a BC/CC system, the only toners or pigments that are used is in the base. This is the main reasoning why the automotive industry uses BC/CC paint today.

IMHO, any flaw will show equally whether using single-stage or BC/CC. Maybe not to an untrained eye, however shrinkage, waviness, dents, orange-peel, etc. will show in either type paint when used.

The shell of any catalyzed paint is a direct result of the type product used in the catalyzation process. I can make a single-stage paint such as PPG's DCC line (Concept) have a much stronger shell than their typical clear will have in the DBC (Deltron) line simply by using their DFX11 hardener instead of their DCX hardeners. There was a wives tale floating that some painters chose to mix a splash of clear in their final topcoat as a way to increase the durability, however the PPG engineers have disputed that to me multiple times at classes I have attended.

I will also share with you that using any type of clear or finish coat that has an extremely hard shell typically suffers from trapped solvents which come back to haunt the job later. Sure, it colorsands very well and buffs quickly, but I am in it for longevity and not quick production work.

One final point is that BC/CC can be made to look like Nitrocellulose Lacquer by using PPG's SLV4985 to tone it down. Even the blending issues that once plagued the clearcoat paints by creating the 'halo effect' are now almost non-existent due to specifically made solvents. As I tell people, things change month-by-month in the paint refinish industry, -and so what you may have learned about paint products 6+ months ago is often obsolete in today's paint products.

Let there be no doubt, the true expert has spoken !