The Ford Barn

telriv · 03-14-2017, 06:08 PM

Recently rebuilt a '53 V-8 flatty. Since I'm past 70 this is NOT my 1st. flatty V-8 rebuild. Just have NEVER run into this before. Since the rebuild, only about 50 miles, the engine has this squeaking noise coming from the front of the engine. The engine has been removed from the vehicle. I have it mounted on a run/test stand with radiator & all to run for extended periods of time. Even running with all the accs. drives removed from the front of the engine & filled with coolant I can hear a distinct squeaking noise from behind the timing case cover picked up with a piece of rubber hose or a stethoscope. I've had the cover off numerous times & can't see ANYTHING obvious & it has PLENTY of oil. The clearance between the cam gear & timing case are within specs, etc. I've eliminated the distributor by buying a rebuilt unit & installing it. Makes NO change & the squeaking noise is NOT coming from the distributor.
Any ideas???

Tom T.

texas webb · 03-14-2017, 07:00 PM

Water pumps?

Russ/40 · 03-14-2017, 07:05 PM

Had this happen to a friend, it was a broken valve spring after a fresh build.

satelite · 03-14-2017, 07:59 PM

I don't think you said if the fan, belts or generator were mounted when you heard the noise. I had a squeal develop on an engine I had just finished rebuilding.It turning out to be the wrong fan belt (new, purchase from a Ford parts supplier). Problem solved. I also had an old chevy engine develop a bad squeal which turned out to be a dry generator bearing.You might also check the fan bearing.
Don in SC

40cpe · 03-14-2017, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telriv

Even running with all the accs. drives removed from the front of the engine & filled with coolant I can hear a distinct squeaking noise from behind the timing case cover picked up with a piece of rubber hose or a stethoscope.

Tom T.

Read the original post

Binx · 03-14-2017, 08:39 PM

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If you have rotator retainers on the valves, one may have a rough finish between the two pieces.

Lonnie

40 Deluxe · 03-14-2017, 11:20 PM

front main seal dry?

Frank Miller · 03-15-2017, 07:45 AM

I rebuilt an 8BA that had a squeak at idle which drove me crazy. Someone toled me it was the rings seating. It did eventually go away.

Ol' Ron · 03-15-2017, 08:44 AM

"Bafacating" that's the word I invented, just for this noiz.

rotorwrench · 03-15-2017, 09:13 AM

Don't run it too long on that stand. They need to pull power to break in the rings otherwise the cylinders will get a glaze.

19Fordy · 03-15-2017, 09:19 AM

Are the distributer gear and timing gear getting enough oil?
Is "something" rubbing on the inside of the timing cover?

telriv · 03-16-2017, 10:41 AM

As I stated, "all the accs. have been dis-connected". Nothing on the front of the engine. Not even a radiator. Filled the engine up with water & plugged the lower outlets so it could be run for awhile on the stand with temp gauges hooked up to both sides to monitor temps. The rings were already broken in as it was in the vehicle for about 50 or so miles. On the stand the timing case cover is wide open & it can be heard distinctly with a hose or other means. All valve springs are new. I've now been through this engine, all completely apart, 3 times & the noise/squeaking is still there, no change. This is a new one for my books. NEVER have run into this before.

Tom T.

40cpe · 03-16-2017, 12:35 PM

when you find it, and I know you will, please come back and tell us what was causing it.

Frank Miller · 03-17-2017, 08:31 AM

If it is squeaking when you get it running again try pouring a little MMO down the carb. If it stops that would point you to the guides or rings. I know that is not where you are hearing the noise but sound is sometimes transmitted through other parts.

rotorwrench · 03-17-2017, 09:11 AM

Something in there is not quite up to specifications. As Frank mentioned, an oiler check down the carb might isolate the cause unless it's an exhaust valve in guide problem. A valve with a tiny bit of bend in the stem can happen. Also but less likely, is a camshaft that has a bit of bend or one of the journals is out of round. If the cam and crank turned freely prior to final assembly then that would lessen the possibilities of problems with them. A cam drive gear with even a tiny bit of wobble might be possible but that would indicate it is not seated correctly on the cam or some other problem with the cam or gear. Another possibility that would be easy to check would be the distributor shaft with a bit of bend. That could be checked pretty easy whether it is the 8RT or the 8CM type. The fuel pump push rod and cam drive gear are at the other end so a bit less likely to be problematic.

I don't consider an engine completely bedded in until it has at least 500-miles on the clock.

telriv · 03-18-2017, 06:09 PM

Frank,

I will try MMO down the carb. if the noise is still there. Hopefully this time around it will not be needed.

Rotorwrench,

Yeah, we know for SURE something is not right. It's not going out the door until IT IS RIGHT.
Of course the engine is COMPLETELY torn down AGAIN!!!! Today I removed ALL the valves & from the guides & checked ALL the stems & ALSO checked for binding on any. ALL in that department is OK. The crank turns so FREELY it's almost scary, but ALL the tolerances are good. Of course upon assembly they will ALL be double checked AGAIN. The cam has been rebuilt/reground & chucking it up in the lathe has almost as close to ZERO run-out as can be expected. The drive gear is ALSO OK. Doesn't wobble or appears to have any problems & the clearance to the cover is correct. I polished the cam journals the last time & will do a little more polishing again. As mentioned the distributor WAS REPLACED with another rebuilt unit & didn't correct the issue. I didn't want to send out the old distributor because something may have been wrong with it that may not & wouldn't have been picked up by the re-builder. Now I have to send the original back to get my core deposit back. On the run stand I have an electric fuel pump so I removed the pump & push-rod to eliminate that as the source of the noise also. The noise/squeaking is very distinctly coming from the front behind the timing case cover as can be heard with a rubber hose. I'm ALMOST certain the noise is not traveling from another part of the engine. Although at this point ANYTHING is possible. I ordered a set of +.010" cam bearings & will align bore the front bearing as that's the ONLY one that has a very slight shiny spot in it on one side. I have three times to get it right since ALL the cam bearings are the same.

THANKS TO EVERYONE for their thoughts & suggestions it's really appreciated. Out of ALL the Flattys I've done this is the ONLY ONE that has given me ANY problems all these years. Everyday is a new learning experience. When you think you may have seen or heard of it all something will almost definitely pop up!!!!

Thanks again,

Tom T.

JM 35 Sedan · 03-18-2017, 08:38 PM

Did you use a fiber/phenolic cam timing gear? I had a squeaking noise in the front of a '35 21 stud engine that had just been completely rebuilt. We had used a repro fiber/phenolic timing gear that we believe was manufactured off shore. Here are some pictures of what this gear looked like when it failed prematurely after about 1500 miles. This gear was getting oil from its normal sources, a small passageway from the lifter valley to the top of the gear, and from the crank timing gear that brings oil up from the sump to the cam timing gear. We replaced this cam timing gear with an aluminum version. This eliminated the squeaking noise, and the engine has been running well for the last 30k miles.

Binx · 03-18-2017, 09:28 PM

What is the combination of springs and retainers? All early long springs with single-piece retainers or late shorter springs with two-piece rotating retainers?

Lonnie

sargesflthds · 03-18-2017, 09:42 PM

One time about 10years ago, noise similar to this.
The oil pump was making noise, replaced it. noise gone.
It was a new high volume pump, must have been slightly out of spec.??

telriv · 05-07-2017, 09:06 PM

An update to the rattling noise problem.
It turns out the (offshore) timing gear was the problem all along. Replaced it with an aluminum gear. NO MORE RATTLING NOISE!!!! Just a small/little whine from the aluminum gear I got from Cloyes. The more I run the engine on the engine stand the QUIETER it gets. After installed back into the vehicle I'm sure it will be COMPLETELY quiet after a couple hundred miles of driving. The customer came into the shop to listen to the engine running on the engine stand. He is satisfied with it & signed off on it being COMPLETELY comfortable it will get quieter upon driving.
I should have thought of this earlier in time as I had run into somewhat the same problem I had on a '46 Chevy pick-up 6 cyl. I did quite a few yrs. ago. 20+??? Replaced that fiber gear with an aluminum replacement, but had a more distinct whining noise than this Flatty has. After about 1K miles the whining noise has all but COMPLETELY DISAPPEARED!!!!
Thanks to ALL for ANY & ALL suggestions.
It has been another LEARNING EXPERIENCE that has taken much time to resolve, but I'm now completely satisfied.
How can you charge the customer for ALL the time & expense in additional gaskets & parts associated with a tear down completely 4 times???? ALL for a defective replacement part???

AGAIN, THANKS TO ALL

Tom T.

03-14-2017, 06:08 PM	#1
telriv Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 4	'53 Flathead V-8 Recently rebuilt a '53 V-8 flatty. Since I'm past 70 this is NOT my 1st. flatty V-8 rebuild. Just have NEVER run into this before. Since the rebuild, only about 50 miles, the engine has this squeaking noise coming from the front of the engine. The engine has been removed from the vehicle. I have it mounted on a run/test stand with radiator & all to run for extended periods of time. Even running with all the accs. drives removed from the front of the engine & filled with coolant I can hear a distinct squeaking noise from behind the timing case cover picked up with a piece of rubber hose or a stethoscope. I've had the cover off numerous times & can't see ANYTHING obvious & it has PLENTY of oil. The clearance between the cam gear & timing case are within specs, etc. I've eliminated the distributor by buying a rebuilt unit & installing it. Makes NO change & the squeaking noise is NOT coming from the distributor. Any ideas??? Tom T.

03-14-2017, 07:00 PM	#2
texas webb Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: San Antonio Texas Posts: 636	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 Water pumps?

03-14-2017, 07:05 PM	#3
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 Had this happen to a friend, it was a broken valve spring after a fresh build.

03-14-2017, 07:59 PM	#4
satelite Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 145	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 I don't think you said if the fan, belts or generator were mounted when you heard the noise. I had a squeal develop on an engine I had just finished rebuilding.It turning out to be the wrong fan belt (new, purchase from a Ford parts supplier). Problem solved. I also had an old chevy engine develop a bad squeal which turned out to be a dry generator bearing.You might also check the fan bearing. Don in SC

03-14-2017, 08:39 PM	#6
Binx Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Gloucester VA Posts: 1,042	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) If you have rotator retainers on the valves, one may have a rough finish between the two pieces. Lonnie

03-14-2017, 11:20 PM	#7
40 Deluxe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: now Kuna, Idaho Posts: 3,792	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 front main seal dry?

03-15-2017, 07:45 AM	#8
Frank Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn, MA Posts: 2,106	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 I rebuilt an 8BA that had a squeak at idle which drove me crazy. Someone toled me it was the rings seating. It did eventually go away. __________________ “The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound

03-15-2017, 08:44 AM	#9
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,926	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 "Bafacating" that's the word I invented, just for this noiz.

03-15-2017, 09:13 AM	#10
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,574	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 Don't run it too long on that stand. They need to pull power to break in the rings otherwise the cylinders will get a glaze.

03-15-2017, 09:19 AM	#11
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 11,068	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 Are the distributer gear and timing gear getting enough oil? Is "something" rubbing on the inside of the timing cover?

03-16-2017, 10:41 AM	#12
telriv Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 4	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 As I stated, "all the accs. have been dis-connected". Nothing on the front of the engine. Not even a radiator. Filled the engine up with water & plugged the lower outlets so it could be run for awhile on the stand with temp gauges hooked up to both sides to monitor temps. The rings were already broken in as it was in the vehicle for about 50 or so miles. On the stand the timing case cover is wide open & it can be heard distinctly with a hose or other means. All valve springs are new. I've now been through this engine, all completely apart, 3 times & the noise/squeaking is still there, no change. This is a new one for my books. NEVER have run into this before. Tom T.

03-16-2017, 12:35 PM	#13
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,033	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 when you find it, and I know you will, please come back and tell us what was causing it.

03-17-2017, 08:31 AM	#14
Frank Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn, MA Posts: 2,106	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 If it is squeaking when you get it running again try pouring a little MMO down the carb. If it stops that would point you to the guides or rings. I know that is not where you are hearing the noise but sound is sometimes transmitted through other parts. __________________ “The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound

03-17-2017, 09:11 AM	#15
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,574	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 Something in there is not quite up to specifications. As Frank mentioned, an oiler check down the carb might isolate the cause unless it's an exhaust valve in guide problem. A valve with a tiny bit of bend in the stem can happen. Also but less likely, is a camshaft that has a bit of bend or one of the journals is out of round. If the cam and crank turned freely prior to final assembly then that would lessen the possibilities of problems with them. A cam drive gear with even a tiny bit of wobble might be possible but that would indicate it is not seated correctly on the cam or some other problem with the cam or gear. Another possibility that would be easy to check would be the distributor shaft with a bit of bend. That could be checked pretty easy whether it is the 8RT or the 8CM type. The fuel pump push rod and cam drive gear are at the other end so a bit less likely to be problematic. I don't consider an engine completely bedded in until it has at least 500-miles on the clock.

03-18-2017, 06:09 PM	#16
telriv Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 4	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 Frank, I will try MMO down the carb. if the noise is still there. Hopefully this time around it will not be needed. Rotorwrench, Yeah, we know for SURE something is not right. It's not going out the door until IT IS RIGHT. Of course the engine is COMPLETELY torn down AGAIN!!!! Today I removed ALL the valves & from the guides & checked ALL the stems & ALSO checked for binding on any. ALL in that department is OK. The crank turns so FREELY it's almost scary, but ALL the tolerances are good. Of course upon assembly they will ALL be double checked AGAIN. The cam has been rebuilt/reground & chucking it up in the lathe has almost as close to ZERO run-out as can be expected. The drive gear is ALSO OK. Doesn't wobble or appears to have any problems & the clearance to the cover is correct. I polished the cam journals the last time & will do a little more polishing again. As mentioned the distributor WAS REPLACED with another rebuilt unit & didn't correct the issue. I didn't want to send out the old distributor because something may have been wrong with it that may not & wouldn't have been picked up by the re-builder. Now I have to send the original back to get my core deposit back. On the run stand I have an electric fuel pump so I removed the pump & push-rod to eliminate that as the source of the noise also. The noise/squeaking is very distinctly coming from the front behind the timing case cover as can be heard with a rubber hose. I'm ALMOST certain the noise is not traveling from another part of the engine. Although at this point ANYTHING is possible. I ordered a set of +.010" cam bearings & will align bore the front bearing as that's the ONLY one that has a very slight shiny spot in it on one side. I have three times to get it right since ALL the cam bearings are the same. THANKS TO EVERYONE for their thoughts & suggestions it's really appreciated. Out of ALL the Flattys I've done this is the ONLY ONE that has given me ANY problems all these years. Everyday is a new learning experience. When you think you may have seen or heard of it all something will almost definitely pop up!!!! Thanks again, Tom T.

03-18-2017, 09:28 PM	#18
Binx Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Gloucester VA Posts: 1,042	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 What is the combination of springs and retainers? All early long springs with single-piece retainers or late shorter springs with two-piece rotating retainers? Lonnie

03-18-2017, 09:42 PM	#19
sargesflthds Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 4	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 One time about 10years ago, noise similar to this. The oil pump was making noise, replaced it. noise gone. It was a new high volume pump, must have been slightly out of spec.??

05-07-2017, 09:06 PM	#20
telriv Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 4	Re: '53 Flathead V-8 An update to the rattling noise problem. It turns out the (offshore) timing gear was the problem all along. Replaced it with an aluminum gear. NO MORE RATTLING NOISE!!!! Just a small/little whine from the aluminum gear I got from Cloyes. The more I run the engine on the engine stand the QUIETER it gets. After installed back into the vehicle I'm sure it will be COMPLETELY quiet after a couple hundred miles of driving. The customer came into the shop to listen to the engine running on the engine stand. He is satisfied with it & signed off on it being COMPLETELY comfortable it will get quieter upon driving. I should have thought of this earlier in time as I had run into somewhat the same problem I had on a '46 Chevy pick-up 6 cyl. I did quite a few yrs. ago. 20+??? Replaced that fiber gear with an aluminum replacement, but had a more distinct whining noise than this Flatty has. After about 1K miles the whining noise has all but COMPLETELY DISAPPEARED!!!! Thanks to ALL for ANY & ALL suggestions. It has been another LEARNING EXPERIENCE that has taken much time to resolve, but I'm now completely satisfied. How can you charge the customer for ALL the time & expense in additional gaskets & parts associated with a tear down completely 4 times???? ALL for a defective replacement part??? AGAIN, THANKS TO ALL Tom T.