Woven brake linings and Cast Iron drums

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi 909,

Hope this helps.

Just sent an email request to the most experienced Model A Brake person we know, i.e., Mr. Gross, concerning your interesting question:

"Does anybody have any experience on this?
Note: Experience cannot be gained from an armchair."

Hope this knowledgeable gentlemen has time to respond ...... also, very possible Mr. Gross never sat in an arm chair. LOL

[Kevin in NJ]

Originally Posted by robgross1930

You obviously have no experience in tribology and its relation to industrial friction material. So I'll leave it at that.

While I am not familiar with the study of Tribology I have an understanding of physics. There are quite a few sub-fields and that was not the field I followed.

Do you have useful information that you could share on the subject as it relates to the materials used in the Model A brakes both past and present?

Can you educate us? I am asking for information here, I seriously would like to see some fact based information that relates to the materials used in the Model A. This is exactly what I want to know.

Clearly we would need to see some graphs of the materials for todays materials and the ones Ford used.

[quickchange]

Question , If you used a hard lining on a hard drum ( steel) would it create the dust needed to get grip, ?
If you used a soft lining on a soft drum (cast) would this create more dust & too much grip ?
Most wear points need dissimilar materials or am( I braking )up the wrong tree??
surely this discussion can be answered by a old brake person .
I know what worked for me but then all down under is upside down , hear lies the problem , Derek in a hot summer in NZ

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by quickchange

Question , If you used a hard lining on a hard drum ( steel) would it create the dust needed to get grip, ?
If you used a soft lining on a soft drum (cast) would this create more dust & too much grip ?

What the heck does dust have to do with getting grip??

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

He thinks the brass threads in the linings is scuffing up the drum too much and wearing them out quickly.

Brass? Wearing out cast iron?

[Dick Steinkamp]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

In the end, the important thing is to ask for evidence. People make statements and just give some basic things. They saw something. No pictures, no details that let you repeat the problem easily.

Lots of that going around on many threads .

If we rely on anecdotal evidence and hearsay for information, we would (and do) see very different diagnosis and "solutions" to the same problem here. Not a whole lot of real help.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

Brass? Wearing out cast iron?

I can see why he might think that. When riveted linings wear down to the rivets, they leave grooves in the drum, so Yes.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi 909,

Hope this helps.

Just sent an email request to the most experienced Model A Brake person we know, i.e., Mr. Gross, concerning your interesting question:

"Does anybody have any experience on this?
Note: Experience cannot be gained from an armchair."

Hope this knowledgeable gentlemen has time to respond ...... also, very possible Mr. Gross never sat in an arm chair. LOL

HL, He is just the sort of person who can shed some good light on this matter. I hope he has time to respond and look forward to reading it.
Thanks for the referral.

[robgross1930]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I can see why he might think that. When riveted linings wear down to the rivets, they leave grooves in the drum, so Yes.

It’s another story if rivets are allowed to rub the drum. What if they were made out of steel?

As for the brass wire content, without it, the lining would be weak.

Tell your friend to replace his woven lining with molded lining and when you go on tour make sure that your car stays behind his and don’t ride with him, especially at higher speed.

[Mitch//pa]

Here is a quote from another thread of what Randy Gross uses and recommends for brake linings:::

QUOTE:::
" I also sell relined brake shoes that are bonded (not riveted) with modern lining and chamfered on the leading and trailing edges to help reduce chatter and squealing. I also sell relined emergency brake bands that are bonded too. They do require woven lining as they flex""::::QUOTE

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Here is a quote from another thread of what Randy Gross uses and recommends for brake linings:::

QUOTE:::
" I also sell relined brake shoes that are bonded (not riveted) with modern lining and chamfered on the leading and trailing edges to help reduce chatter and squealing. I also sell relined emergency brake bands that are bonded too. They do require woven lining as they flex""::::QUOTE

HMMM, That's interesting, Mitch.
I await Randy's response on this one though as it is not clear from that whether he thinks woven linings are bad or would cause this problem on cast drums. He makes no mention of the type of drum. You have obviously taken the time to do some research before responding.Thanks for that.

[quickchange]

I see this is going no where , how come there are TWO different types of drums ie Steel & Cast iron & after 89 years There are still TWO types of Linings ??? If it works for you then do it ,

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by robgross1930

It’s another story if rivets are allowed to rub the drum. Why? Brass rivet/brass wire. I know there are different grade of brass but....What if they were made out of steel? The drums or rivets made of steel? Tis thread is all about cast iron drums so I guess you are talking about steel rivets.

As for the brass wire content, without it, the lining would be weak.]True, but is it relevant?

Tell your friend to replace his woven lining with molded lining and when you go on tour make sure that your car stays behind his and don’t ride with him, especially at higher speed.I guess you are confirming that the woven linings create more friction. I don't think anybody disagrees with that but back to the purpose of the thread - do they scour the surface of a cast iron drum?

Please, let's stay on topic. woven linings on cast drums.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by quickchange

I see this is going no where , how come there are TWO different types of drums ie Steel & Cast iron & after 89 years There are still TWO types of Linings ??? If it works for you then do it ,

Yep, going no where - maybe too many armchairs?
The trouble with your suggestion is that he won't know if it works until a set of drums is ruined if there is a problem. He'd rather learn from someone else's experience than have to learn it again the hard way. Isn't hat what this forum is all about?

[robgross1930]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Quote:
Originally Posted by robgross1930
It’s another story if rivets are allowed to rub the drum. Why? Brass rivet/brass wire. I know there are different grade of brass but....What if they were made out of steel? The drums or rivets made of steel? Tis thread is all about cast iron drums so I guess you are talking about steel rivets.

As for the brass wire content, without it, the lining would be weak.]True, but is it relevant?

Tell your friend to replace his woven lining with molded lining and when you go on tour make sure that your car stays behind his and don’t ride with him, especially at higher speed.I guess you are confirming that the woven linings create more friction. I don't think anybody disagrees with that but back to the purpose of the thread - do they scour the surface of a cast iron drum?

Please, let's stay on topic. woven linings on cast drums.

Well I've beat this horse enough. But one last time shouldn't hurt:

“Please, let's stay on topic. woven linings on cast drums.”

That’s what my post was about.

“Why? Brass rivet/brass wire.”

Take a look at the diameter of a brass rivet head and compare it to the diameter of a “fine” brass wire and you should readily understand.

“The drums or rivets made of steel? This thread is all about cast iron drums so I guess you are talking about steel rivets.”

Quite the contrary in the context of your remark. I was merely making a comparison of brass vs. the hardness of steel and figured you would be able to see that brass damage would not be all that severe by comparison.

As for the brass wire content, without it, the lining would be weak. "True, but is it relevant?"

Is it relevant? Absolutely. Without it, the lining would have a harder time standing the pressure.

“I guess you are confirming that the woven linings create more friction. I don't think anybody disagrees with that but back to the purpose of the thread - do they scour the surface of a cast iron drum?”

No, I’m confirming that a woven lining will provide a better brake on a mechanical brake system. A molded lining will give satisfactory results as well IF it is soft enough. Yes, there is no doubt that a woven lining with brass scours a cast iron drum or any drum for that matter and so does a molded lining. But the woven lining will not chew up the drum and destroy it in short order …. unless maybe the cast iron was extremely poor in which case it would be too weak to serve as a drum.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The brass wires help transfer heat.
The multiplate clutch linings also contain brass wires and don't hurt the steel discs.

[Synchro909]

But the woven lining will not chew up the drum and destroy it in short order …. unless maybe the cast iron was extremely poor in which case it would be too weak to serve as a drum.[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

That is where Forever4's comment about different types of cast iron come into play. I was aware of what Forever said.
FWIW, the drums are from a US supplier and although I would have to ask him (if he knew), I would guess they are US made. One would hope they are the appropriate cast iron.
Tom, Your point is quite valid but I'm not sure it helps when we are looking at woven linings on cast iron.

I think I will suggest to my friend that if it is working well, leave it but keep an eye on it. Pull the drums every few thousand miles and check. Take appropriate action when/if damage is found.
Randy's response would still be worth hearing.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW:

Years ago, many brake shops used to provide different bonded brake linings, (from soft to hard), that came with different warranties for different amounts of miles traveled.

Like with everything else, current asbestos regulations from years ago and that of today are very different.

One important part of the brake lining mystery "today" is "who" is manufacturing the bonded brake linings with "which" materials ................ "today."

Old brake lining stories from old brake mechanics may sound Model A comforting; however, with modern technology constantly changing, Mr. Gross could inform us specifically as to what we can expect from his current brake lining experiences "today".

[Mel Gross]

I am sorry that I have not been able to respond. I am currently in the middle of a yearend physical inventory at the company I work for. We have 2 extremely large warehouses that have well over 750,000 pieces of brake drums and rotors in them. I will respond over the weekend when I can catch my breath. Thanks and happy new year to all of you

Randy Gross
[email protected]
714-292-8660

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Mel Gross

I am sorry that I have not been able to respond. I am currently in the middle of a yearend physical inventory at the company I work for. We have 2 extremely large warehouses that have well over 750,000 pieces of brake drums and rotors in them. I will respond over the weekend when I can catch my breath. Thanks and happy new year to all of you

Randy Gross
[email protected]
714-292-8660

Sorry for the bad timing. Mel. I and I'm sure several others here are anxious to hear your thoughts.