The Ford Barn

RockHillWill · 10-01-2015, 05:55 AM

Here are a few more pictures from the class that were sent to me by one of the attendees. On the Model A fender, it required a patch about 6" wide by 8" tall right at the cross brace mounting holes and ran thru the crease. Peter cut and preformed the repair patch in a manner that fit the opening exactly and used the gas welding torch to tack the panel in place. He was very careful to explain the reasoning for the slow initial tacking method and it's effect on the finished repair. When explained by an old world craftsman, it becomes apparent that the more common use of MIG and TIG is an inferior approach to sheet metal when compared to the historical method of gas welding. He explained all the common reasons normally heard about why they can be used, but when explained by some one well versed in ALL types of welding, it becomes quite apparent that MIG and TIG are used to make the repair quicker, but the long term results will suffer. I know this first hand as the Pickup that I restored a few years ago was MIG and some TIG welding done by the paint guy has started to crack. Gas welding will leave the repair in identical condition as the parent metal. Testing with a Rockwell hardness tester will confirm the degree of brittleness and lack of malleability adjacent to the weld on MIG and TIG joints.

Peter completed the repair using no English wheel or other piece of equipment. The weld was so nice that there was no grinding required. He buffed the repair area with a large scotchbright disc and hand finished the repair with a sharp 'corking' tool.

The pictures of the 'fire' must have been intended to test my heart rate. Peter noticed a slight flare at the side of the tail section and rapidly began to anneal that section and the fix it with one of his own designed slapper. It scared the crap out of me seeing him aim a torch at it, but it turned out great, and we all learned a good lesson.

PetersClass4 001.jpg

PetersClass4 002.jpg

photo 1.jpg

photo 2.jpg

Logan · 10-01-2015, 07:40 AM

Hey Will, I'd also like to be put back on the list for next years class. That would be great if we could get the same group together again.

Tom Wesenberg · 10-01-2015, 09:34 AM

I can understand MIG leaving the weld too hard, but I thought TIG would be similar to gas welding.

RockHillWill · 10-01-2015, 10:25 AM

Tom, it my understanding that the negative about both the TIG and the Mig, is the rapid heat build up and the rapid cooling, leaving a narrower heat affected zone. Any type of welding that has a wider HAZ will result in a longer cooling time which I feel results in a 'self-annealing' process, resulting in a more ductile weld area. My biggest concern with the TIG process is that the rapid cooling time traps bubbles that are created when the weld is liquid. This can be readily seen if you ever saw a TIG weld in half. It is also somewhat easier to fusion weld when gas welding and this results in less weld buildup requiring less post-weld grinding/heat.

Most folks have reasons for choosing their style of welding, but after the recent class with Peter, I am more and more comfortable using gas welding for the common #19 gage steel repairs on the Model A type cars, and using the gas welding of the aluminum on the current Bugatti fender project and similar projects.

RockHillWill · 10-01-2015, 10:26 AM

Logan, I was hoping that I could include you as well for the same reason. I already have you on the priority list for the next class(es).

RockHillWill · 10-02-2015, 09:19 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Including those expressing an interest from this site, I have accumulated a list for potential participants for next years class, and it now stands at (14).
I am recording them in the order in which they are received, giving priority to those that attended this years class. I have been pleasantly surprised at how many folks have had an interest in the original form of metal shaping.

Logan: I have found and set aside your items.

Charlville · 10-02-2015, 09:21 AM

Thanks for the post and the pictures, very jealous

MP&C · 10-02-2015, 09:34 PM

Will, if I could impose, may as well keep these together in one thread...

Here are some of the pictures from the Tommasini class in MD..

Here are some of the highlights of Thursday's class....
Peter shows how to prepare a stump for shrinking....

Discussing weld location in panel forming....

Using magnets to hold a paper pattern for layout....

Wheeling, tuck shrinking and annealing aluminum sheet...

MP&C · 10-02-2015, 09:34 PM

Capturing the tuck and shrinking on aluminum sheet

Blocking and wheeling our 19 gauge steel fender panel...

Forming the rear corner for a Model A..

Blocking on the sand bags and shrinking on the stump....

Wheeling....

MP&C · 10-02-2015, 09:37 PM

Here's some of today's class projects.

The start of a scooter fender...

Test fit of a fender panel...

Copper work, trash can taking shape...

Paper pattern on a roadster quarter panel....

Using the blocking hammer to pre-stretch

Making a pattern for the dies

MP&C · 10-02-2015, 09:37 PM

Making a pattern of luan board for a divider offset in trimming the top edge..

What happens when a metal shaper gets around wood products...

Trimming and filing up the top edge....

On to the Lennox....

RockHillWill · 10-03-2015, 08:16 AM

Richard, make yourself at home here. It is good to share metal shaping knowledge from every available source. There are many talented folks that visit this site. Several of us here at the Rock Hill class made notes on Peters method of 'finishing' the top of a stump, but looking at your photos clears up more about the shape and contour size. You have a very impressive assortment of tools and equipment in your shop, and I hope those in attendance appreciate your opening up your shop for their personal use. Keep the pictures coming, especially of the Model A parts being made. I have made an assortment of hammer forms for some of the interior reinforcement panels for the fenders, and will gather some pics today, if possible.

MP&C · 10-03-2015, 10:54 PM

Project updates for todays class:

Wiring top edge of the copper trash can..

Roadster quarter, making dies for the upper bead detail....

Sharpening the crease

A bit of shrinking....

Test fit...

Marking for trimming the wheel opening...

MP&C · 10-03-2015, 10:56 PM

Inside radius backstop

Scooter fender...

Trimming...

[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167
/rmccartney/Metalworking/Picture%203399.jpg[/IMG]

Prepping for Sport Coupe door skin removal

We took a short break for a Maryland treat...

of course, using only the correct utensils....

Blocking the top section of the roadster quarter.....

JupiterBandit · 10-04-2015, 12:03 PM

Where is this? I'd love to attend classes

larry harding · 10-04-2015, 12:36 PM

a few years age ron covel was giving metel working classes in charlotte n.c. I managed to make two of them before the economy crapped out and he stopped the ones in n.c. they were great and I wish I could take some more. I hope to hear more about future classes.

MP&C · 10-04-2015, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JupiterBandit

Where is this? I'd love to attend classes

Will's class was held in Rock Hill, SC. My class was held in Leonardtown, MD.

Here's a tuck shrinking video I forgot to include yesterday..

https://youtu.be/qBG4XNzDKs8

.

MP&C · 10-05-2015, 09:06 AM

Final update of the class, pictures from yesterday.
Wheeling door skin for a sport coupe:

Annealing copper wire to use as rivets:

Cover plate for military vehicle:

Paper pattern

Tuck shrinking on post dolly

Forming upper quarter reverse

MP&C · 10-05-2015, 09:07 AM

Wheel opening bead detail added

Tipping flange with vise grips with jaws that have been smoothed...

Stretching

Loading stumps for the journey to their new home..

This class has been a blast, Peter is a wealth of knowledge and experience, and we are honored to have him share and pass this on to others. Anxiously looking forward to next year!

MP&C · 10-06-2015, 11:19 AM

I have some ear protection that was left behind from this weekend, if one of the class participants would like to claim them.....

10-01-2015, 05:55 AM	#21
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Here are a few more pictures from the class that were sent to me by one of the attendees. On the Model A fender, it required a patch about 6" wide by 8" tall right at the cross brace mounting holes and ran thru the crease. Peter cut and preformed the repair patch in a manner that fit the opening exactly and used the gas welding torch to tack the panel in place. He was very careful to explain the reasoning for the slow initial tacking method and it's effect on the finished repair. When explained by an old world craftsman, it becomes apparent that the more common use of MIG and TIG is an inferior approach to sheet metal when compared to the historical method of gas welding. He explained all the common reasons normally heard about why they can be used, but when explained by some one well versed in ALL types of welding, it becomes quite apparent that MIG and TIG are used to make the repair quicker, but the long term results will suffer. I know this first hand as the Pickup that I restored a few years ago was MIG and some TIG welding done by the paint guy has started to crack. Gas welding will leave the repair in identical condition as the parent metal. Testing with a Rockwell hardness tester will confirm the degree of brittleness and lack of malleability adjacent to the weld on MIG and TIG joints. Peter completed the repair using no English wheel or other piece of equipment. The weld was so nice that there was no grinding required. He buffed the repair area with a large scotchbright disc and hand finished the repair with a sharp 'corking' tool. The pictures of the 'fire' must have been intended to test my heart rate. Peter noticed a slight flare at the side of the tail section and rapidly began to anneal that section and the fix it with one of his own designed slapper. It scared the crap out of me seeing him aim a torch at it, but it turned out great, and we all learned a good lesson. PetersClass4 001.jpg PetersClass4 002.jpg photo 1.jpg photo 2.jpg __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

10-01-2015, 07:40 AM	#22
Logan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 1,055	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Hey Will, I'd also like to be put back on the list for next years class. That would be great if we could get the same group together again. __________________ Cowtown A's

10-01-2015, 09:34 AM	#23
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs I can understand MIG leaving the weld too hard, but I thought TIG would be similar to gas welding.

10-01-2015, 10:25 AM	#24
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Tom, it my understanding that the negative about both the TIG and the Mig, is the rapid heat build up and the rapid cooling, leaving a narrower heat affected zone. Any type of welding that has a wider HAZ will result in a longer cooling time which I feel results in a 'self-annealing' process, resulting in a more ductile weld area. My biggest concern with the TIG process is that the rapid cooling time traps bubbles that are created when the weld is liquid. This can be readily seen if you ever saw a TIG weld in half. It is also somewhat easier to fusion weld when gas welding and this results in less weld buildup requiring less post-weld grinding/heat. Most folks have reasons for choosing their style of welding, but after the recent class with Peter, I am more and more comfortable using gas welding for the common #19 gage steel repairs on the Model A type cars, and using the gas welding of the aluminum on the current Bugatti fender project and similar projects. __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!" Last edited by RockHillWill; 10-01-2015 at 10:32 AM.

10-01-2015, 10:26 AM	#25
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Logan, I was hoping that I could include you as well for the same reason. I already have you on the priority list for the next class(es). __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

10-02-2015, 09:19 AM	#26
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Including those expressing an interest from this site, I have accumulated a list for potential participants for next years class, and it now stands at (14). I am recording them in the order in which they are received, giving priority to those that attended this years class. I have been pleasantly surprised at how many folks have had an interest in the original form of metal shaping. Logan: I have found and set aside your items. __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

10-02-2015, 09:21 AM	#27
Charlville Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: West Berkshire, United Kingdom Posts: 368	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Thanks for the post and the pictures, very jealous __________________ Kevin Flood West Berkshire UK Member MAFCGB, VHRA, SAH, Brooklands Trust Sporadic progress on My 1929 Sport Coupe can be found here along with my blog http://automotiveamerican.com/

10-02-2015, 09:34 PM	#28
MP&C Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Will, if I could impose, may as well keep these together in one thread... Here are some of the pictures from the Tommasini class in MD.. Here are some of the highlights of Thursday's class.... Peter shows how to prepare a stump for shrinking.... Discussing weld location in panel forming.... Using magnets to hold a paper pattern for layout.... Wheeling, tuck shrinking and annealing aluminum sheet...

10-02-2015, 09:37 PM	#30
MP&C Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Here's some of today's class projects. The start of a scooter fender... Test fit of a fender panel... Copper work, trash can taking shape... Paper pattern on a roadster quarter panel.... Using the blocking hammer to pre-stretch Making a pattern for the dies

10-03-2015, 08:16 AM	#32
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Richard, make yourself at home here. It is good to share metal shaping knowledge from every available source. There are many talented folks that visit this site. Several of us here at the Rock Hill class made notes on Peters method of 'finishing' the top of a stump, but looking at your photos clears up more about the shape and contour size. You have a very impressive assortment of tools and equipment in your shop, and I hope those in attendance appreciate your opening up your shop for their personal use. Keep the pictures coming, especially of the Model A parts being made. I have made an assortment of hammer forms for some of the interior reinforcement panels for the fenders, and will gather some pics today, if possible. __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

10-03-2015, 10:54 PM	#33
MP&C Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Project updates for todays class: Wiring top edge of the copper trash can.. Roadster quarter, making dies for the upper bead detail.... Sharpening the crease A bit of shrinking.... Test fit... Marking for trimming the wheel opening...

10-03-2015, 10:56 PM	#34
MP&C Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Inside radius backstop Scooter fender... Trimming... [IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167 /rmccartney/Metalworking/Picture%203399.jpg[/IMG] Prepping for Sport Coupe door skin removal We took a short break for a Maryland treat... of course, using only the correct utensils.... Blocking the top section of the roadster quarter.....

10-04-2015, 12:03 PM	#35
JupiterBandit Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Holden, Ma Posts: 41	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Where is this? I'd love to attend classes

10-04-2015, 12:36 PM	#36
larry harding Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: western n.c. Posts: 407	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs a few years age ron covel was giving metel working classes in charlotte n.c. I managed to make two of them before the economy crapped out and he stopped the ones in n.c. they were great and I wish I could take some more. I hope to hear more about future classes.

10-05-2015, 09:06 AM	#38
MP&C Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Final update of the class, pictures from yesterday. Wheeling door skin for a sport coupe: Annealing copper wire to use as rivets: Cover plate for military vehicle: Paper pattern Tuck shrinking on post dolly Forming upper quarter reverse

10-05-2015, 09:07 AM	#39
MP&C Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs Wheel opening bead detail added Tipping flange with vise grips with jaws that have been smoothed... Stretching Loading stumps for the journey to their new home.. This class has been a blast, Peter is a wealth of knowledge and experience, and we are honored to have him share and pass this on to others. Anxiously looking forward to next year!

10-06-2015, 11:19 AM	#40
MP&C Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17	Re: Photos from the Peter Tommasini metal shaping class incl. Model A fender repairs I have some ear protection that was left behind from this weekend, if one of the class participants would like to claim them.....