Pulling Diver's Helmet

[countrysquire]

I'm working on getting my new to me '40 Deluxe Tudor running and need a little help. The car had a frame-off restoration back in the '80s, but I don't think it's been started in this century. I'm working through the normal steps to get a dormant car running, and now that I'm close to firing it, I see that there's no spark. There's power at the coil terminal but no spark at the end of the plug wires. I'm assuming that I have corrosion on the points and rotor, but I'm not exactly sure the right way to access them! This is my first flathead with the diver's helmet distributor, and before I screw something up I thought it would be best to ask a couple questions.

1. Am I correct in thinking that it's necessary to pull the distributor to dress the points and rotor?

2. Is removing the distributor a matter of removing the plug and coil wires and then simply unbolting it from the front of the block?

Thanks,
Bobby

[Bruce Lancaster]

1. yes
2. Pop off the side caps and wires can stay connected...no need to disturb them unless you suspect trouble. Remove three bolts and vac line and it should come off. Look it over and note that the drive tab is offset, so it can go back on properly timed. Also examine front of cam...your engine uses what is called the LONG cam, something like 3/8" longer nose at distributor cam than '42-48 SHORT cam. You may very well have a short one, since those are far easier to find, with an adapter that lengthens cam...so wiggle the front of cam with pliers and see if a little adaptor comes off. Reason you need to know this is that adaptor could fall off, anf then you'd have a REALLY mysterious failure to fire!
Set points to large end of gap range. I've posted a method of timing the thing using only a ruler, stolen from an old Ford patent. Timing at stock 4 degrees will be right about center of scale.

[V12Bill]

Remove coil, vacuum line, unhook bails holding spark plug wires to distributor and unbolt distributor. Top right bolt may have to come off to remove coil if you have the original type condenser. If points are clean, you may need a condenser (IH 200 at NAPA) .

[Bruce Lancaster]

Couple more things...note the spring that serves as coil primary contact to distributor points. The coil needs to be in place when you adjust and time as it pushes hard enough to shift the point plate a bit.
Commonest failures of points not is use are broken springs (probably at a rust spot?) and formation of tarnish on the contact points themselves.

[countrysquire]

Thanks for the quick and helpful responses. It looked like pulling it was straight-forward, but I figured there was probably a bit more to it. I've created a lot more work for myself over the years by just tearing into something before I understood how it worked.

One more question before I tear into it. Should there be 6 volts on the coil terminal or should it be dropped down to 3 volts by the ballast resistor? I'm reading 6.3 with the ignition switch on.

[deuce_roadster]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

When I remove the distributor from my 40 in addition to all mentioned above, I take the 2 bolts out of each wire loom to make things easier. It allows you to move the caps/inner caps farther away. Those bolts are very easy to get at. You don't need to take the looms off the car just be able to move them a couple of inches out.

[Willit Stop]

I've had mine out quite a few times.I try to be careful not to disturb the position of the rotor drive tang.Once it's out,I use a Marks-A-Lot and draw a line across the drive and bottom of the distributor.It's not really necessary but makes the install a "little" easier.

[ford38v8]

Bobby, The voltage at the coil will be full battery voltage until the points are closed, at which point the circuit is complete. The ballast resistor then drops about 2 volts. The engine will run on anything down to 3 volts, but points and coil will be short lived on full voltage.

[countrysquire]

Thanks Alan.

Update - Pulled the distributor and cleaned everything. The point contacts were snow white and the brass contacts for the rotor and caps were pitch black. It's back together and I have good spark now. I've tried to start it a few times, but only get a backfire through the carburetor. When I reassembled the distributor, I set the advance on the middle mark, which is where it was before disassembly. I can hear a good suction at the throttle plates when they are closed, so I think I have good compression. I'm going to look things over while the battery charges to see if I'm missing anything. We'll see what happens!

[countrysquire]

Embarrassing update - I learned something today. Apparently, these old Fords won't run when you have six of the eight plug wires in the wrong place. Once I put them in the right place it fired right up and purrs like a kitten.

Now all I need to do is change out the gas tank, flush the lines, swap carburetors, and it will be ready for its first drive in a long long time.

[ford38v8]

Bobby, you're going to swap carburetors, OK, but a note on the carb you have now: Backfiring through the carburetor has likely blown the diaphragm on the Economiser valve.

[48 coupe]

I think ford38 v8 ment power valve

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by 48 coupe

I think ford38 v8 ment power valve

The Economizer valve IS the Power valve.

[Kahuna]

Correct

[Capt Kirk]

I started a post similar to this one last week and the help was awesome. This post causes me some confusion though. Bruce's post above says to adjust the points to the wide end of the range and set the timing to 4* which will be about the middle of the scale. Per the advice I got, I set points to .015 and timing screw up by two notches. I'm starting to get the feeling that there's no right answer and no wrong answer

[deuce_roadster]

I have no idea what my points are set at. I start by setting them by eye, then I set each set on my Sun machine to get the proper dwell for the "make" and "break" side and the proper total. Next let it run for a few hours and recheck. Setting with a feeler gauge just gets you close to what it actually needs to be and without a machine, that is difficult to determine, it will run however.

[Hoop]

"I started a post similar to this one last week and the help was awesome. This post causes me some confusion though. Bruce's post above says to adjust the points to the wide end of the range and set the timing to 4* which will be about the middle of the scale. Per the advice I got, I set points to .015 and timing screw up by two notches. I'm starting to get the feeling that there's no right answer and no wrong answer."

You've been given the right answer, but you're just easily confused.

One of the problems with car forums is that 20 guys can give you advice ... 19 are wrong, only one is right.

You'll take the advice of the 19, popular vote.

Once more ... :

The marks on the advance index plate are 4 crankshaft degrees apart. The middle one by design is 0 degrees. If you move the index 1 notch, that is 4 crankshaft degrees.

If "Duece" has a Sun machine and sets his distributor's LH points at 22 1/2 degrees of dwell, there's nothing to help him set the initial advance. He must go to an additional device, such as a KRW fixture to set it. If he does, the distributor's index normally will be at 1 notch advanced from the center.

Because of some variations in the condition of some points, the alignment of the index can vary. But, that's usually where it ends up.

For someone to give you the right answer, they should have spent considerable time with a strobe machine AND a KRW fixture AND a set of feeler gauges.

A forum is going to flood you with information. Some of it is well-meaning but simply wrong. Some is wild-assed guessing and repeating something someone else said.

Having posted this, I will absolutely guarantee that very soon the same questions will come up ... and the same wrong answers will be given again.

That's just the way it is.

[Capt Kirk]

Hoop,
I took the advice of someone that came across very early as someone that I felt knew what they were talking about. Does this sound familiar?

"Easy. Clean the points and make sure they are each making contact using a meter and while blocking the other set with a thin piece of card stock ... a piece of business card.

Set each set carefully to .015 with a good fit.

Adjust the initial advance index to one notch below the middle on the scale. Run it.

For the time being we will hope that the weighs are not stuck and that when the distributor was installed it was a working unit. Points will develop a "glaze" from sitting and that needs to be cleaned off.

It is easier ... but not necessary ... to pull this insides out of the case to work on the points. Remove the coil, the screw and index plate, remove the vacuum plunger, slide the insides out after spraying it with your favorite penetrant. Expect to have to clamp the bottom drive tang sideways in a vise and carefully tap the outer housing. The coil must be mounted on the distributor when you adjust the points. It isn't precision, but it will help define your problem."

As I mentioned in the other thread, my father owned this car back when he was a kid. He didn't have a Sun machine and didn't have a distributor jig (otherwise I would have got it). In the 60+ years he owned the car, he did his own work (except body work). At one point, he loaded up mom and us kids in that car, hooked up a travel trailer and headed to Nebraska from LA. This leads me to believe that someone without all the "bells and whistles" tools can properly set these engines up. Also, I have Professional Engineering licensure in two states...my statement of "confusion" above was more of an attempt to shed some light on these differences of opinions in setting up these things.

[Hoop]

" Also, I have Professional Engineering licensure in two states...my statement of "confusion" above was more of an attempt to shed some light on these differences of opinions in setting up these things."

As I said before, I'm trying to help you.

I have posted a lot of information and advice NOT necessarily for YOU, but for others who may be seeking insights into flathead distributors. Many of us read intently what is posted by others looking for refinements in what we do.

You are suffering from "paralysis by analysis" ... it frequently attacks engineers.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Final timing is a matter of the individual engine's preferences...but stock spec is good starting point and works well. It can be found by simple jigs like the KRW fixtur or the aftermarket flat plate ones, OR by the method with ruler derived from Ford patent... which nicely matches actual result on KRW fixture.
I like widest end of gap as starting point as there will be a small amount of closing when rubbing block settles in.