Still won't start

[Mike V. Florida]

Check out the gap between the rotor and distributor body. If they are all the same swap out the distributor body.

Even with 1 cylinder not firing your engine should still run without quitting. The Gordon compressor runs with only 2 and there is a video that has a cut away engine running on one.

[Mike V. Florida]

I'm too lazy to back to the first thread about this so let me ask how do you know you are getting fuel?

Get a can of starter fluid and spray it into the carb. As it dies spray it again and see if you can keep it running with the spray can.

[H. L. Chauvin]

One of the most difficult tasks always appears to be to try to help by "guessing" at an "unseen" very "simple" mechanical/fuel/electrical Model A problem from miles away.

Not trying to be funny; but just in case you are getting frustrated trying so many different "things", I would bet (2) fully loaded boxcars full of Model A "Whitewall" tires that a real good senior, grey haired local lawn mower mechanic could locate the problem & advise you of your problem in a jiffy.

Not everybody has a good Model A mechanic close by; but real good "senior" lawn mower mechanics are everywhere.

Realize this is not a response heard of often, but just hopes this can help to get you back on the highway with smiles ........ plus learn a little about the basics of non-computerized engine diagnostics.

[tbirdtbird]

if the condensor is failing you will have erratic spark or no spark. gotta have a good condenser. points ignition system is an LC circuit and all components must be in tip-top shape

[larrys40]

The condenser by Ford spec for the documentation I have should be .20-.25 Microfarads,
In testing a condenser you test for Capacitance, leakage, and resistance. I use an early Ford heyer test set which test for all 3 of these. I would NOT recommend the test stated in a post above to determine a condenser good or not.

As Tom & Mitch said If the terminal is turning it is bad, I would recommend the "Short Proof" condenser and it will probably be the last one you will buy. If you have or know how to use a digital voltmeter I would check the voltage at your coil ( iginition switch off) terminals , should both be 6V+, terminal box studs ( should both be same voltage). If the voltage is lower on one than the other you have a bad connection inside the terminal box or back of the ammeter. If that is good turn on the ignition and with the points open check the voltage at the points, it should be about the same.
If significantly lower you have a bad connection somewhere in the ignition cable or distributor plates.
I gave a seminar last year at the MARC Membership meet on the "voltmeter is the best tool in your toolbox" . When you're having a no start problem it truly is.
If you don
If you don't have one go buy ( or tell your wife you have to have an early birthday present) a decent inexpensive one and start checking voltage to learn and get acquanted. You will always be glad you have it as a tool.

Best of luck... keep the forum posted.
Larry Shepard

[edmondclinton]

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Originally Posted by larrys40

The condenser by Ford spec for the documentation I have should be .20-.25 Microfarads,
In testing a condenser you test for Capacitance, leakage, and resistance. I use an early Ford heyer test set which test for all 3 of these. I would NOT recommend the test stated in a post above to determine a condenser good or not.

Larry Shepard

Sorry, I disagree. Ford's original spec was .3 microfarads. Also I said that when charging up a condenser and discharging on its case, one may "assume" that the condenser is OK. I didn't say it was guaranteed.

The above method is something that almost any Model Aer can do and requires no test equipment.

Using my equipment I measure condenser capacity and then insulation resistance measured between the condenser center and the case.

The following link shows an original letter from Ford Motor Co. discussing the rating of the Model A condenser.

www.fordgarage.com/pages/condensercapacitance.htm

[George Miller]

By the way your condenser probably has to long of a screw and it is bottom out. That is why you can turn it. Check that before you have the same thing happen to your new one.

[tbirdtbird]

I'm with Larry. In the end, tho, the only real test of a condenser is, does it work in the circuit it is supposed to be in.

they are dirt cheap. always have a spare

[stouchton]

Being an electrical engineer of way too many decades experience, I can safely say that the condenser will pass all sorts of tests with meters and such. It will fail actual use tests because the high voltage it is asked to suppress.

Without a tremendously sophisticated rig to observe its dielectric failure - just substitute a good one as mentioned above.

And for those of you thinking the coil only has 6V on the primary, when the points open the primary of the coil rises in voltage till something gives - as evidenced by the arc across the points. The purpose of the condenser (capacitor) is to ensure complete magnetic field collapse. If this does not occur, the coil will magnetically saturate and not be able to build additional magnetic field when current is applied - thus no sparky.

Rate of collapse is controlled by inductance of coil primary and capacitance of condenser - with a ton of Kentucky windage allowable in the actual cap value.

By performing this function, condenser also protects points from excessive pitting - condenser takes the bulk of the current that would otherwise entirely arc across points.



All right - sorry if I am preaching - lost my sister Friday night and guess I need a preacher!

[edmondclinton]

Originally Posted by stouchton

Being an electrical engineer of way too many decades experience, I can safely say that the condenser will pass all sorts of tests with meters and such. It will fail actual use tests because the high voltage it is asked to suppress.

Without a tremendously sophisticated rig to observe its dielectric failure - just substitute a good one as mentioned above.

There's nothing like the real load I agree. However, if the condenser is bad enough the simple tests and test equipment work. No telling how much money has been thrown away on condensers, coils and spark plugs over the last 85 years for nothing when the real problem was something else.

[Tom Wesenberg]

If the condenser terminal spins (and it does) then it is shot. It's very likely shorting the voltage to ground and that is what's heating up the coil. The coil will heat up if the points are closed, key is ON and engine isn't running, but during cranking or engine running, the coil shouldn't heat up.

For now don't worry about coil polarity, but answer this:
1. Do you have 6 volts on both terminals with the key off?
2. With the key on and points open, do you still have 6 volts on both terminals?
3. Do you have 0 volts on one terminal with the key on and points closed?

ALL 3 must be yes, or you won't have good ignition.

Don't hope and wish the condenser is good, because if the terminal spins, it is junk.

[burner31]

Did you gas up just prior to this problem?

[Mitch//pa]

what Tom posted in #42 is the basics for spark to occur...its very,, very simple :::
dont get all wrapped up in checking a 2.00 condenser if the post spins its junk, and even if it did not spin always keep a known good one on hand to swap out when having a spark issue.. as mentioned use the fiber washer underneath the proper length screw..
i have tested condensers that showed good but were still bad...

[Dbbc]

To answer Tom's questions
1. Do you have 6 volts on both terminals with the key off?
Yes
2. With the key on and points open, do you still have 6 volts on both terminals?
Yes
3. Do you have 0 volts on one terminal with the key on and points closed?
Yes

Regarding gas, I drained the tank and got new gas. No change.

Regarding the condenser.
The condenser does not spin just the threaded copper end, so it can't be tighten.
The length of the screw shouldn't matter? Did not see a fiber washer? maybe it fell in the distributor. Will check.

Parts on the way.

[Mitch//pa]

the threaded end of the condenser should not spin, thats what were talking about...
get yourself a fiber washer and the proper length screw

[TDO]

If your getting fire to three cylinders it should start. I use a cut away dist. cap . With some one turning the it over you can see if there is spark to all cyl. and see if its a strong blue arc.

[Dbbc]

Yes the car was starting for a few seconds and then die. Will check again for spark strength and color. I got distributor parts on the way and will change those and then check again.
Hope this will do. Dying to drive the car again.