Rebuild the rear axle

[joda56]

Now, that I`m done with the front axle of my 1929 Phaeton, I have to take care of the rear axle. First, I only wanted to put in new axle housing gaskets, because it leaks there. Loosen all housing bolts, took away the braking plate cleaned the sealing surface and saw the mess. Massive wear at the end of the right axle housing where the bearing sits on. Sorry for the wrong part names, I`m German, but you can see it at the foto. It`s not only the nibbled out wear, the "inside" is not in the same height as the "outside". When I look at the left side of the axle housing, I can see that it is worn out inside, but has the same height.



Is this a kind of "pressed in tube", so I can put (hammer) the right one in the correct position again?



Is the nibbled wear critical?



Is the inside wear of the left side is critical?


If one or both is critical, is there some thing like a shim or do I have to press in a new "whatsoever"? I looked at Snyders and some other, but haven`t found a part, would appreciate a part number if possible. Hope, that if there is a part to buy, it don`t have to be machined after installing


And after all: everywhere at Snyders a.s.o. I can find the part A-4221 "Inner axle drive shaft seal" but I can`t find it inside of the right and left axle housing. Is this an aftermarket part? My brakes are clean, no oil from the axle came through until now. Now clue, where it would sit and how to install. Would like to give it to a Model A specialist, but they are hard to find over here, so I bother you. Sorry!

[Y-Blockhead]

It looks to me that a repair sleeve was installed at some point. https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/p...6365&cat=41720

How does the bearing/race surface look?

If the bearings and races look good and the sleeve is not lose, I think I would run it. The axle doesn't run on the inner surface of the tube.

Easy to say from 6000 miles away...

[Rob Doe]

Use a micrometer and measure the axle housing race. They wear on the bottom where the load is applied. Original axle race O.D. is 2.061 to 2.063

Bratton's part description for the race kit gives info on how to do it.

[JayJay]

The seal you are referring to installs inside the axle housing at almost the end of the axle shaft, just inboard of where the hub fits on. Tom Endy's article contains a lot of information you may find useful. Also, if you do not already have a copy of Les Andrews Red Book, do yourself a favor and get one! There is excellent information on rebuilding the differential in it, including expanded drawings.

A-4221 is the differential bearing that installs on the ring gear case, not the seal. The seal is A-4245. You can simplify your life if you use A-4246 (Snyders number) to install it. It uses pipe with 1/2" NPT threading, which may be a bit problemmatic to obtain in Germany. Check for wear on the axles where the seal rides.

[joda56]

Got you, "Axle Housing Repair Race", now I found it at Brattons and Snyders!


Probabely on the right side someone didn`t pressed a repair race deep enough, this -in my opinion- would explains the height difference. Right? I will look tomorrow, if the Race is pressed to the very end of the housing or if there is a gap (probabely I`ll find a gap as deep as the height difference). But anyway, in my unprofessional mind, the height difference would make no problem, as long as the gap is not too deep to affect the hub bearing. So I`m good with it (hope you agree)

I don`t have a foto of the race surface so I`ll look and measure it tomorrow. I remind a little bit of seeable pressure marks and hope, that it`s not too much. Will see.

Thx for Tom Endy`s article. It helps a lot!

As I now understand, the seal A-4245 is not designed to hold the W600 from the Diff out of the brake hub, right? It`s only to hold back the grease not to wander inside of the axle housing?

Is there not a seal anywhere between the axle housing and the brake drum to hold back the oil of the Diff? Or is it the design of the upgoing axle housing, that prevent the diff oil to leak into the brake drum? Or what else???


Last question: to identify, if there is already a repair kit with a smaller bearing inside my Phaeton axle, I only have to measure, if the bearing do have a smaller O.D. Yeah, but I don`t found any numbers yet, only "a little smaller". Not at Snyders, not at Brattons, Mikes or anywhere. And everywhere you can buy the kit, nowhere only the bearing of the kit. Does anyone know, what size was the O.D. of the original bearing and what size from the repair kit?


From Snyders repair kit: "This kit contains one sleeve, and one bearing to repair a worn hub. Simply press the sleeve into the hub, and this bearing has a little smaller O.D., but same I.D. as the original bearing."




JayJay, you`re right, as a German, I`m always fighting with NPT, UNC, UNF, inches different tool sizes a.s.o., but in the meantime I`m able to work with it. Internet research helps a lot. And I bet you feel the same with the metric system.


Have to leave a BIG THX to all of you at FordBarn!

Boys, you made my day! I did wrote my questions yesterday until midnight, got to sleep, woke up and got your helpful answers.



Warm Greetings from Berlin, Germany.

[JayJay]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by joda56

Got you, "Axle Housing Repair Race", now I found it at Brattons and Snyders!

Probabely on the right side someone didn`t pressed a repair race deep enough, this -in my opinion- would explains the height difference. Right? I will look tomorrow, if the Race is pressed to the very end of the housing or if there is a gap (probabely I`ll find a gap as deep as the height difference). But anyway, in my unprofessional mind, the height difference would make no problem, as long as the gap is not too deep to affect the hub bearing. So I`m good with it (hope you agree)

There is a grease seal on the inboard side of the hub (Snyders A-1175) that rides on the axle housing. You need to be sure that the grease seal is riding on the housing and not falling into that gap. If so, you are golden.

I don`t have a foto of the race surface so I`ll look and measure it tomorrow. I remind a little bit of seeable pressure marks and hope, that it`s not too much. Will see.

Thx for Tom Endy`s article. It helps a lot!

As I now understand, the seal A-4245 is not designed to hold the W600 from the Diff out of the brake hub, right? It`s only to hold back the grease not to wander inside of the axle housing?

Is there not a seal anywhere between the axle housing and the brake drum to hold back the oil of the Diff? Or is it the design of the upgoing axle housing, that prevent the diff oil to leak into the brake drum? Or what else???

The seal A-4245 seal serves both purposes. The 600W is contained in the banjo and splashes onto the main bearings on the gear carrier. Any that gets by can route to the end of the axle housing and will drip back down the housing by gravity. The seal helps keep the 600w contained within the axle housing. It also prevents migration of the grease from the hub bearing around the outside end of the hub and into the axle housing. There is also a seal (Snyders A-1175) that prevents grease from the bearing from escaping the back of the hub into the brake area.

BTW, the question arises as to what direction to install the A-4245 seal. It can go either way, but I install it with the lip facing inwards. In my mind the 600W, being a liquid, is more likely to migrate than the grease.

Last question: to identify, if there is already a repair kit with a smaller bearing inside my Phaeton axle, I only have to measure, if the bearing do have a smaller O.D.

You would measure the ID of the hub to determine if you already have that kit installed, but you should be able to see the sleeve inside the hub just like you can see the sleeve on the outside of your axle housing. According to a website I found, the hub ID is 3.188" to 3.190” – Max. wear 3.185”. But the Les Andrews Red Book is your definitive source for this.

Yeah, but I don`t found any numbers yet, only "a little smaller". Not at Snyders, not at Brattons, Mikes or anywhere. And everywhere you can buy the kit, nowhere only the bearing of the kit. Does anyone know, what size was the O.D. of the original bearing and what size from the repair kit?

See response above.

From Snyders repair kit: "This kit contains one sleeve, and one bearing to repair a worn hub. Simply press the sleeve into the hub, and this bearing has a little smaller O.D., but same I.D. as the original bearing."

This description is for the hub repair kit. There are two repair kits: one for the axle housing, which requires that you machine down the axle housing and press on the sleeve (Snyders A-1225-SL, it looks like you may have had this installed already), and the hub repair kit (Snyders A-1115-RK), which does not require machining but uses a different rear bearing than stock. The former is used to compensate for a worn axle housing, and the latter is used to compensate for a worn hub. The Les Andrews book gives tolerances to be measured to determine which you have.

JayJay, you`re right, as a German, I`m always fighting with NPT, UNC, UNF, inches different tool sizes a.s.o., but in the meantime I`m able to work with it. Internet research helps a lot. And I bet you feel the same with the metric system.

Actually, most of our modern cars here are already metric, so we are somewhat used to it. (As an aside, I've heard that Harley Davidson motorcycles are the only vehicle that is still manufactured, at least in the USA, with SAE fasteners, but I have not verified that.) It's the rest of our life that is still stuck in imperial sizes.

Have to leave a BIG THX to all of you at FordBarn!

Boys, you made my day! I did wrote my questions yesterday until midnight, got to sleep, woke up and got your helpful answers.

Warm Greetings from Berlin, Germany.

Joda - See above in red.

[Bob C]

Seal A-4245 in installed with the lip facing in towards the differential, see page 361 of the Service Bulletins.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Seal A-4245 in installed with the lip facing in towards the differential, see page 361 of the Service Bulletins.

Thanks, Bob. Reassuring to know I've been doing it the right way even if I didn't realize it.

[joda56]

JayJay, very good work, thanks a lot. You did it the best way, to write the answers behind the question. Now I learned a lot and know about the existence of the two repair kits. Before, I thought it would only exist the one in the axle housing, but as a normally attentive reader, I should have noticed, that a "hub repair kit" repairs the hub, not the axle

[JayJay]

Kids, if you will Private Message me your email address I’ll send you an exploded drawing of the differential assembly.

[joda56]

JayJay, you`ve got a pm.


And you`re right, there is a worn space on the right axle (left one is good), probabely just where the lip from the seal touches the axle. I have to measure it out tomorrow. First thought was " put a little JDWeld over and grind it down. But the better idea is probabely to make a little shim and put it in front of the seal before it will pressed in. Then the lip would seal (if you lokk from the trans-housing) before the worn part of the axle. I still wonder, if the seat of the seal in the axle housing is large enough, just to let the old seal inside and press the new one in the axle housing. Then I would got a double sealed axle.


sela lip toward housing like in my picture, right?

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by joda56

JayJay, you`ve got a pm.


And you`re right, there is a worn space on the right axle (left one is good), probabely just where the lip from the seal touches the axle. I have to measure it out tomorrow. First thought was " put a little JDWeld over and grind it down. But the better idea is probabely to make a little shim and put it in front of the seal before it will pressed in. Then the lip would seal (if you lokk from the trans-housing) before the worn part of the axle. I still wonder, if the seat of the seal in the axle housing is large enough, just to let the old seal inside and press the new one in the axle housing. Then I would got a double sealed axle.


sela lip toward housing like in my picture, right?

Joda - Guten Morgen and Alles Gute zum Geburtstag. I’d turn that seal around so the lip points inwards (pic #2).

From your pic #3 the wear on that axle does not look horrible, as long as there is no pitting. Try fitting the seal onto it and see if you have full contact. If so, replace the seal and use it the way it is. If not, I have heard of folks doing as you suggest and installing a new seal on top (inboard) of the old seal, although I’ve never done it. Or you could make a shim say half the thickness of the old seal.

The JB Weld solution may sound attractive (I’ve thought of it myself) but I think you have other alternatives. The “proper” way to do it would be to spray weld the groove, then turn it to proper diameter in a lathe. But for what that would cost you can get another axle, there are lots out there. And they are available new, although not cheap.

But judging from your picture, I’d be tempted to use it as is. You already said it wasn’t leaking…

I got your PM, will do after I fix the bride breakfast.

[rotorwrench]

There are sleeves referred to as a Speedy-Sleeve that is a thin sleeve with a removable hat section to allow it to be installed with a piece of tube long enough to locate it properly on a shaft. They are available for just about any shaft diameter. I install them with an epoxy adhesive (Devcon Plastic Steel) that has steel particles mixed in to help keep it from moving on the shaft. They are specifically designed to replace a worn seal area and are themselves replaceable if they wear out. If it will clean up relatively well with a red scotch-brite pad then a speedy-sleeve may not be necessary.

If differential oil leaks past, about the only place it can go is into the real wheel bearing. The rear wheel bearing has a rudimentary seal to keep grease from moving into the brake shoe housing. The wheel bearings should be hand packed. This keeps the grease to a minimum so that it doesn't overflow into where you don't want it.

[Terry, NJ]

i have done two rears so far and that's the end of it for me! I also put new gear sets( 3.54) in. One came out good, and one didn't. Also , I found out that a laser temperature sensor was a handy diagnostic tool for when the job is done. Seeing how this job can be complicated, there is a contributor to this site named Tom Endy who has a tutorial that can be downloaded for easy reference. I would say that Tom is an expert and should be read carefully. His info is easy to read and complete with photographs.
Terry

[joda56]

Terry, hope I don`t have to do it a second time. I already got the article of Tom Endy, JayJay gave me the link before, thank you.

Yesterday I`ve put in the seals in the axle housing. Was a little mess, had to grind them on the outside a bit. I realized, that they were changed before and they did a grind job on the seals, too. I also realized, that there is imho not enough place to put two seals in one axle housing, when I (accidentally) tried to push in the second seal in the same axle, that I already put the first seal in (just grabbed the already done and therefore wrong axle housing). The lip is snug even over the little worn part of the left side, so I left it that way.
The bearing shell in the left and the right bearing in the right axle housing are loose. I`ll try to do it not too bad, when I use some special bearing glue (like Rotorwrench did it for the sleeves) to fix this. Should have bought some new bearings, I know! But When the shaft ist worn, there is the possibility, that not even a new bearing will sit firmly.


Terry, what do you measure with the laser temperature sensor? Please don`t say temperature ;-) I mean where do you measure it and what do you expect?

[joda56]

Just did it. Please don`t judge me, when I tell you, that I used the old bearings, bearing shells and didn`t took apart the spider and the pinion. Only thing I`ve changed was the seal A-4245 and a shim A-4221SH to eliminate the wear that the bearing did at the spider carrier assembly. This was my first transmission that I ever worked on and at the beginning, I only wanted to give it new housing gaskets to avoid the oil leaking at the housing. And then the story has begun.



I`m (still) happy, that I did it, because I`ve found and removed many little leftover pieces from the axle shaft shim A-4235-SH, that the former owner/mechanist did use. And I hope, I`ll stay happy, when I put it back in the car and be on the road again.

I did the final assembly like Tom Endy wrote: first the right axle housing without any gasket, snugfit. Then the left axle housing without gasket, snug fit. Oppps, no binding at all! Without any gasket, there is some markable play in the left and right axle. It`s about 0.4mm (about 0.01575 inch). I know, it is not professional work to ignore the play, but is it way too much, or shall I try it to build all together (without a paper gasket, just the silicone gasket) and hope it`s still okay for me? It`s my own car and I don`t drive much.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by joda56

Just did it. Please don`t judge me, when I tell you, that I used the old bearings, bearing shells and didn`t took apart the spider and the pinion. Only thing I`ve changed was the seal A-4245 and a shim A-4221SH to eliminate the wear that the bearing did at the spider carrier assembly. This was my first transmission that I ever worked on and at the beginning, I only wanted to give it new housing gaskets to avoid the oil leaking at the housing. And then the story has begun.



I`m (still) happy, that I did it, because I`ve found and removed many little leftover pieces from the axle shaft shim A-4235-SH, that the former owner/mechanist did use. And I hope, I`ll stay happy, when I put it back in the car and be on the road again.

I did the final assembly like Tom Endy wrote: first the right axle housing without any gasket, snugfit. Then the left axle housing without gasket, snug fit. Oppps, no binding at all! Without any gasket, there is some markable play in the left and right axle. It`s about 0.4mm (about 0.01575 inch). I know, it is not professional work to ignore the play, but is it way too much, or shall I try it to build all together (without a paper gasket, just the silicone gasket) and hope it`s still okay for me? It`s my own car and I don`t drive much.

Joda - the binding you should have with no axle housing gaskets is not determined using the axles. You need to assemble the banjo to the axle housings and then reach in through the pinion gear opening and attempt to turn the ring gear. It should bind. If it doesn’t bind you need to need to install shims behind the big tapered bearings on the carrier assembly, the shims are Snyder’s A-4221-SH. You MUST have this binding with no gaskets, you cannot adjust pinion backlash and position properly unless you do.

End play in the axles is a totally different thing. What you are seeing as end play in the axles is between the axle and the carrier housing. It is not affected at all by whether you have axle housing gaskets installed or not. You really can’t adjust that end play, you need to accept what you have or start replacing parts. 0.015” is excessive, yes (I don’t recall the spec exactly, 0.003” sticks in my head) but for a casual driver, I’d be inclined to use it this way. The play is between wear surfaces so you’d need to find a very thin thrust washer, not just a shim, and tear down the carrier assembly to install.

[joda56]

Thank you JayJay for your patience. Now I got you with the different play.


Yesterday I did the work on the transmission that I was able too. Let´s begin with the bearings inside. As you can see on the pic "shim bearing" I did put a thin shim between the bearing and the spider case, because the bearing has worn out the spider case. Because the bearing was loose, I glued it in with a special bearing glue. I should have taken 2 shims.... but anyway, now it`s too late. Then I glued in the race of the bearing on the right side. My transmission have different sizes of bearings, the bearing on the left side is a little bis smaller than on the right side. First I thought, that Ford build it that way to avoid Dummies like me from mixing up the right and left side, but when I look at the part list, they should be identical. Maybe somebody used a "repair set" with a sleeve at the left side and therefore a smaller bearing. Anyway, it fits good and the bearing glue should do a better and longer lasting job than punch marks.


Today I disassembled the Torque tube from the housing to set the pinion backlash. By that, I realized, that the Bolts don`t have holes for a safety wire as original. One bolt was already loose, one was not really tight. I drilled a hole in every bolt head and wired them when I finished my work. After I pulled all bolts out, I was able to pull the torque tube together with the pinion out of the housing. The pinion bearing cup was so loose, that I don`t have to use force to pull it out. You can see this at the pic "Pinion Race". After that, I put both of the axle housings back on the banjo to see for the play. Again no binding (I should have used two shims, but it`s already glued). But no play, too, all real snug fit. So I decided to reassemble the transmission with good hope. It definetely will run better than before. All bearings are fixed on their shaft now, all races on their housings. At disassembling I noticed that they don`t used any gasket, nor sealant at the banjo and torque tube. Bolts were loose, some threads that bad, that I tapped a metric M10 instead (that was easy and very tight). I will let you know, if my work was good enough or if I make big mistakes and do have now 1 gear forward and three gears backwards But that would be no defect, but a feature

But it will need some weeks if not month, to put this all together again (it`s a frame off resto)