The Ford Barn

MB30Roadster · 02-11-2012, 01:59 PM

First off let me say that I am a newbie to the Model A world...and although I hate to ask a stupid question I figure it is probably more stupid to not ask so, here goes one of many to come I am sure. I've been working on my A and am just now getting to the point of attempting to start her up.

Question; Is it normal to have the starter engage without the key turned on?

I am going to have to install a new battery (mine drops too low when the load is applied) before I make a real attempt to start her up. Plan on that today.

Always ready for advice. Thanks.

Sparky · 02-11-2012, 02:13 PM

Yes, the foot button will always crank the starter.
The key just energizes the ignition coil.

hardtimes · 02-11-2012, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MB30Roadster

First off let me say that I am a newbie to the Model A world...and although I hate to ask a stupid question I figure it is probably more stupid to not ask so, here goes one of many to come I am sure. I've been working on my A and am just now getting to the point of attempting to start her up.

Question; Is it normal to have the starter engage without the key turned on?

I am going to have to install a new battery (mine drops too low when the load is applied) before I make a real attempt to start her up. Plan on that today.

Always ready for advice. Thanks.

Oh, and the key being turned on has to do with starting electricity to start (points) not starter..clear as mud,eh !

Do you have stock 'starter switch' ? I ask, as you don't give much detail.
Working with experience, I will take a quess that your starter switch needs to be taken off of the starter and refurbished or replaced. This may apply especially if your switch is repop! Original Henry starter switches are much more robust/work better than repop. However, you can redo repop switch to get it back to where it will not cause such problem as you describe. Can you say if repop or not and can you take it off and post a picture for further diagnosis/help? There are a COUPLE of items involved that can cause what you ask about..relative to this switch.

MB30Roadster · 02-11-2012, 04:15 PM

Thanks for the info. It does makes sense that the foot button allows the starter to crank and the key energizes the coil.

I should have been a bit more specific, as I did engage the starter (foot pedal). I had tried to crank it over this morning and just happenend to have not turned the key on one ocassion and was just surprised that the starter engaged (albeit very slowly due to a lack of voltage).

How about another question? Do you think that a low battery (between 5-5.45 volts) is too low to operate the lights and horn?

Again thanks for your help.

700rpm · 02-11-2012, 04:30 PM

A good ground is essential with a 6V system. Make sure you have good, clean contacts for lights, horn and battery. The system was designed for 6V, and if properly set up and maintained it functions perfectly well.

jmeckel · 02-11-2012, 04:37 PM

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The real test of a battery is under load, the unloaded voltage is just a surface voltage. There are many things that can make it look like a bad battery, the first and most common issue that I run into is poor connections on the battery cables at the battery or on the ground cable to vehicle connection. Make sure that all of the connections are polished clean and tight. Make sure battery is full of water then charge up the battery with a good charger and then test it under load. you may find that it cranks the engine over just fine, if not, then replace the battery

Steve Wastler · 02-11-2012, 04:50 PM

As with any 'new to me' old car, especially an A due to simplicity, I like to clean and tighten each and every electrical connection physically possible. Don't forget the switch and ammeter connections as well as terminal box, grounds, etc. Good luck, the only stupid question is the one not asked... Be careful A's are addictive and been know to spontaneously reproduce!!!

Patrick L. · 02-11-2012, 06:51 PM

if you change the battery, the original system[with generator] is + ground..[ An alternator could be either]..If equipped with generator the ammeter should show a + charge when the engine speed is brought up.. If no charge is shown, it may need to be polarized if the car has not been run in awhile.. Just jump across the generator cut-out terminals for a nano-second..
Don't be afraid to ask a question, most folks here try to be helpful.. Once the engine is up and running, you'll find a few more questions..

30ccpickup · 02-11-2012, 07:05 PM

MB30Roadster,

Welcome. My website has a section on how to start your Model A. It follows Fords owner's manual. Just click on the modelAbasics link below. It took me a while to memorize all of the steps, but after awhile it becomes natural.

Paul

hardtimes · 02-11-2012, 08:06 PM

It doesn't take much current to 'operate lights/horn'. The horn might sound 'sick' and the lights might be 'dim'...but will operate for a short time with low voltage. HOWEVER, the starter will grunt/groan with low voltage and you will quickly go 'dead' in that condition. BTW.. good GROUND is vital.

Rusty Homestead Fl · 02-11-2012, 08:43 PM

Also remember the Model A 6 volt starter won't spin like a modern 12v starter. You can go on Youtube to see and hear several A engines being turned over to give you the sound and feel. Best of luck

MB30Roadster · 03-02-2012, 12:17 AM

Since last post I have run through the wiring and ignition (easy to do, wow! got to love the simplicity of it) and lo and behold, I was able to get power to the headlights, tail lights and distributor, all very good news. I have been "tinkering" with the A when I could make time. Anyway, long story short, after getting power I made an attempt to start her for the first time. After fixing a carb leak (more like pouring) I must say, with a lot of joy....she's alive! After the work put into her to have her fire up and run is a great feeling to say the least. Truthfully, I'm like a kid in a candy store.

700rpm · 03-02-2012, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Truthfully, I'm like a kid in a candy store.

I think we all know that feeling!

Mike V. Florida · 03-02-2012, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 700rpm

I think we all know that feeling!

Sure do!!

MB30Roadster, where in Florida are you located?

MB30Roadster · 03-02-2012, 12:47 AM

Gulf Coast, Destin area. You?

Mike V. Florida · 03-02-2012, 04:35 AM

Ft lauderdale area

MB30Roadster · 03-03-2012, 10:13 PM

Hate to beat a dead horse but, I need some advice. While working on getting the brake light to work I have discovered that in the harness (cloth covered) at the tail light there are three wires. One seems to be green, one black and the other I would guess to be yellow. I have looked at the wiring diagram and see the green and black are for the tail and brake light but I don't know what the other one is for and could use some advice. BTW-it is constant hot. Also, I'm still trying to figure out why no brake light either. I have continuity when the switch is closed and good voltage going to it but, it drops when closed. Any ideas on either?
Much appreciated,
Mitch

Bob C · 03-03-2012, 10:53 PM

Not quite sure I understand what your saying about the switch but the
brake light should be off when you push the plunger on the switch in.

Bob

Tom Wesenberg · 03-03-2012, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Not quite sure I understand what your saying about the switch but the
brake light should be off when you push the plunger on the switch in.

Bob

That's true if he's working on a 1930-1 with the switch mounted to the crossmember. I guess we have to assume it's a 1930 Roadster.

I never saw the year or body style mentioned, but if it's a 1928-9 then the brake switch is mounted on the tranny top and is on when the rod is pulled.

If the voltage at the brake light switch drops when the switch is turned on, then you have a weak battery, bad connection between the battery and switch, or the switch or wiring between the switch and brake light is shorting to ground.

MB30Roadster · 03-03-2012, 11:56 PM

Should have mentioned what I'm working on. It's a 30 Roadster and yes it is mounted on the crossmember.Thanks for the info. I'll retrace and recheck my voltage from the battery to switch and then to the light. How about the third wire I mentioned? Hate to be a bother, I'm not bad at the machanical aspect of things but, I'm not the best when it comes to electrical work, sort of just fumble my way through it most of the time. Anyway, I've been working on getting my first A up and running. It's been fun!

02-11-2012, 01:59 PM	#1
MB30Roadster Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 24	Electrical Question First off let me say that I am a newbie to the Model A world...and although I hate to ask a stupid question I figure it is probably more stupid to not ask so, here goes one of many to come I am sure. I've been working on my A and am just now getting to the point of attempting to start her up. Question; Is it normal to have the starter engage without the key turned on? I am going to have to install a new battery (mine drops too low when the load is applied) before I make a real attempt to start her up. Plan on that today. Always ready for advice. Thanks.

02-11-2012, 02:13 PM	#2
Sparky Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 650	Re: Electrical Question Yes, the foot button will always crank the starter. The key just energizes the ignition coil.

02-11-2012, 04:15 PM	#4
MB30Roadster Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 24	Re: Electrical Question Thanks for the info. It does makes sense that the foot button allows the starter to crank and the key energizes the coil. I should have been a bit more specific, as I did engage the starter (foot pedal). I had tried to crank it over this morning and just happenend to have not turned the key on one ocassion and was just surprised that the starter engaged (albeit very slowly due to a lack of voltage). How about another question? Do you think that a low battery (between 5-5.45 volts) is too low to operate the lights and horn? Again thanks for your help.

02-11-2012, 04:30 PM	#5
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 6,039	Re: Electrical Question A good ground is essential with a 6V system. Make sure you have good, clean contacts for lights, horn and battery. The system was designed for 6V, and if properly set up and maintained it functions perfectly well. __________________ Ray Horton, Portland, OR As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

02-11-2012, 04:37 PM	#6
jmeckel Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Luck WI Posts: 550	Re: Electrical Question Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The real test of a battery is under load, the unloaded voltage is just a surface voltage. There are many things that can make it look like a bad battery, the first and most common issue that I run into is poor connections on the battery cables at the battery or on the ground cable to vehicle connection. Make sure that all of the connections are polished clean and tight. Make sure battery is full of water then charge up the battery with a good charger and then test it under load. you may find that it cranks the engine over just fine, if not, then replace the battery __________________ Jon "If you choose to not decide, you still have made a choice!" RUSH Don't tell me what you know..... Tell me what you have done.

02-11-2012, 04:50 PM	#7
Steve Wastler Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,987	Re: Electrical Question As with any 'new to me' old car, especially an A due to simplicity, I like to clean and tighten each and every electrical connection physically possible. Don't forget the switch and ammeter connections as well as terminal box, grounds, etc. Good luck, the only stupid question is the one not asked... Be careful A's are addictive and been know to spontaneously reproduce!!!

02-11-2012, 06:51 PM	#8
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Electrical Question if you change the battery, the original system[with generator] is + ground..[ An alternator could be either]..If equipped with generator the ammeter should show a + charge when the engine speed is brought up.. If no charge is shown, it may need to be polarized if the car has not been run in awhile.. Just jump across the generator cut-out terminals for a nano-second.. Don't be afraid to ask a question, most folks here try to be helpful.. Once the engine is up and running, you'll find a few more questions..

02-11-2012, 07:05 PM	#9
30ccpickup Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wakarusa, IN Posts: 932	Re: Electrical Question MB30Roadster, Welcome. My website has a section on how to start your Model A. It follows Fords owner's manual. Just click on the modelAbasics link below. It took me a while to memorize all of the steps, but after awhile it becomes natural. Paul __________________ http://MODELABASICS.com/ How Things Work on a Model "A" Ford Fordbarners, Feel free to use the pictures on my site to answer questions and create tutorials/tech articles.

02-11-2012, 08:06 PM	#10
hardtimes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South California Posts: 6,190	Re: Electrical Question It doesn't take much current to 'operate lights/horn'. The horn might sound 'sick' and the lights might be 'dim'...but will operate for a short time with low voltage. HOWEVER, the starter will grunt/groan with low voltage and you will quickly go 'dead' in that condition. BTW.. good GROUND is vital.

02-11-2012, 08:43 PM	#11
Rusty Homestead Fl Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Homestead, Fl Posts: 351	Re: Electrical Question Also remember the Model A 6 volt starter won't spin like a modern 12v starter. You can go on Youtube to see and hear several A engines being turned over to give you the sound and feel. Best of luck

03-02-2012, 12:17 AM	#12
MB30Roadster Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 24	Re: Electrical Question Since last post I have run through the wiring and ignition (easy to do, wow! got to love the simplicity of it) and lo and behold, I was able to get power to the headlights, tail lights and distributor, all very good news. I have been "tinkering" with the A when I could make time. Anyway, long story short, after getting power I made an attempt to start her for the first time. After fixing a carb leak (more like pouring) I must say, with a lot of joy....she's alive! After the work put into her to have her fire up and run is a great feeling to say the least. Truthfully, I'm like a kid in a candy store.

03-02-2012, 12:47 AM	#15
MB30Roadster Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 24	Re: Electrical Question Gulf Coast, Destin area. You?

03-02-2012, 04:35 AM	#16
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida between Sarasota and TampaSouth Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Electrical Question Ft lauderdale area __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

03-03-2012, 10:13 PM	#17
MB30Roadster Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 24	Re: Electrical Question Hate to beat a dead horse but, I need some advice. While working on getting the brake light to work I have discovered that in the harness (cloth covered) at the tail light there are three wires. One seems to be green, one black and the other I would guess to be yellow. I have looked at the wiring diagram and see the green and black are for the tail and brake light but I don't know what the other one is for and could use some advice. BTW-it is constant hot. Also, I'm still trying to figure out why no brake light either. I have continuity when the switch is closed and good voltage going to it but, it drops when closed. Any ideas on either? Much appreciated, Mitch

03-03-2012, 10:53 PM	#18
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 9,360	Re: Electrical Question Not quite sure I understand what your saying about the switch but the brake light should be off when you push the plunger on the switch in. Bob

03-03-2012, 11:56 PM	#20
MB30Roadster Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 24	Re: Electrical Question Should have mentioned what I'm working on. It's a 30 Roadster and yes it is mounted on the crossmember.Thanks for the info. I'll retrace and recheck my voltage from the battery to switch and then to the light. How about the third wire I mentioned? Hate to be a bother, I'm not bad at the machanical aspect of things but, I'm not the best when it comes to electrical work, sort of just fumble my way through it most of the time. Anyway, I've been working on getting my first A up and running. It's been fun!