T5 vs AX 5 or AX15

[Russell Reay]

I want to install a 5 sp transmission in my 1930 model A. I have done a pretty thorough search of Ford Barn, HAMB, and Youtube to learn about the T5 conversion. To retain the torque tube w/o excessive fabrication, I need a 4wd tailshaft housing. I have an S10 4wd unit, but the tailshaft is longer than ideal. The apparent solution is to use the tailshaft housing from a Jeep 82-86 CJ or XJ. My extensive and diligent search shows these to be scarce as hen's teeth.. That said, a search for this T5 yields an abundance of Jeep AX 5 and a few AX 15 transmissions, and the physical dimensions of these units are encouragingly small. Has anyone tried these in a model A, and what are your thoughts and recommendations?

[nkaminar]

My recommendation: Why not install a 6 speed? Install a Mitchell overdrive. Plus two speeds in reverse.

[Russell Reay]

A major reason for wanting the modern trans is the synchromesh. I can downshift the A trans, but not at high speed (30-40+). Slowing down from hi-way speed for entry to a driveway (5> 4>3) plus brakes is so much easier with a synchro than the model A ( 3> brakes > brakes> brakes >2).

[GPierce]

If you shift the Mitchell into neutral you can then down shift or up shift the Model A transmission without the need to double clutch.
I got pretty good at: OD into neutral-tranny into 2nd from high-OD into low or high and go.
Just DONOT shift into reverse in this scenario.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Russell Reay

A major reason for wanting the modern trans is the synchromesh. I can downshift the A trans, but not at high speed (30-40+). Slowing down from hi-way speed for entry to a driveway (5> 4>3) plus brakes is so much easier with a synchro than the model A ( 3> brakes > brakes> brakes >2).

Ah, but you can down shift with the Mitchell O/D. The Mitchell has synchros.

[petew]

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Russell ,
The biggest part of adapting the transmission other than physical size would be
Adapting the Jeep transmission to spline into the clutch and the pilot shaft bushing also getting the transmission to bolt up to the bellhousing.
The other problem would be the throw out bearing.
All could be done if you have access to a lathe and a milling machine .

[Russell Reay]

Originally Posted by petew

Russell ,
The biggest part of adapting the transmission other than physical size would be
Adapting the Jeep transmission to spline into the clutch and the pilot shaft bushing also getting the transmission to bolt up to the bellhousing.
The other problem would be the throw out bearing.
All could be done if you have access to a lathe and a milling machine .

It sounds like this is not a practical move, and I don't need to be the first. I just put my car up on the lift, and discovered why the AA bell housing is recommended. I think I will continue my plans to do the T5 using adaptors that are known to exist and knowledge from living pioneers

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Ah, but you can down shift with the Mitchell O/D. The Mitchell has synchros.

Aren’t the synchro rings only on second and third? IIRC first is still crash box.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by JayJay

Aren’t the synchro rings only on second and third? IIRC first is still crash box.

Hi, JayJay, I was referring to the Mitchell O/D, not the Mitchell transmission. You are correct, the Mitchell Trans has second and third gear synchros.

But the O/D has high and low range with synchros. Simply put the Mitchell O/D in neutral and you can shift the Model A Trans into any gear you want, then re-engage the Mitchell O/D... within reason. I wouldn't recommend shifting into first at 40mph!!

[wuga]

Why would anyone spend 4x the amount to only get partial synchronization and a complicated shifting sequence with two shift levers when you can have it all in one simple unit. I have installed both the Jeep and the S10 using various adaptor suppliers and both were quite simple and certainly rewarding when driving. Once you have installed the Mitchell, the car is modified, so what is the difference? As far as the clutch goes, we used a Burtz flywheel in both cases and a 9" V8 clutch assembly. No machining. Pedals and mechanical brakes are not affected. In any case, the driveshaft has to be shortened or modified. The gearing along with the lighter flywheel gives you better drivability. This past summer, three out of four people that drove my RPU have acquired S10 T5s.
Warren

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by wuga

Why would anyone spend 4x the amount...
Warren

Four times?? What does it cost for a T-5 conversion?

[fried okra]

Any thoughts on how the GM T5 installation compares to the Ford F150 type 4 speed transmissions from the mid 1980's?

Is one preferable over the other?

[brokenspoke]

Originally Posted by Ruth

Four times?? What does it cost for a T-5 conversion?

A S10 T5 4x4 is $2,000.

[Bruce of MN]

Does that include adapter parts and machining? A Mitchell OD is about as close to a bolt-in as you can get.

[petew]

My car has the T5 conversion .
I originally wanted to put in a Mitchell OD and syncro trans with the different ratio.
The cost to install the Mitchell equipment was exactly double what I spent on the T5 conversion and the wait was 8 or 9 months .
The T5 was a bolt in except for some welding on the arms keep the rear end located.
The T5 conversion is a bit more complicated to install than the Mitchell and if I had a pristine original car I would have done a Mitchell but I don't so the T5 was the best decision for me and the results far exceeded my expectations .
Your milage may vary.
No machining required for the kit that I installed .

[wuga]

A Mitchell trans, O/D and assorted extras cost around $7K. The S10 we did this summer including rebuilt S10 t5 ($700.00) AA bell housing ($200.00) Adaptors front and rear from Vintage Metalworks including special clutch disk ($1250.00) After market shifter ($190.00) V8 pressure plate and throw out bearing Speedway (200.00) Burtz flywheel ($375.00) for a total of $2915.00. I wouldn't build it without the lightened flywheel and the short throw shifter. These are current prices and are somewhat higher then the last build, but still considerably less expensive. You have to shorten the drive shaft and radius rods, but if you can weld or have a buddy that can, this part is a small investment.
Warren

[wuga]

This is a recipe I wrote up for the installation of the S10 T5 into a Model A.
Warren

S10 T5 Upgrade in your Model A 4 Banger

This is best done with the body off.
It assumes mechanical brakes are being retained.
A S10 4WD less the transfer case is being used.

Remove all brake rods.
Remove center cross member by grinding and removing rivets.
Remove e-brake cross shaft.
Remove e-brake handle.
Remove brake cross shaft.
Unbolt rear spring
Remove clam shell
Slide rearend assembly out from under back of car
Stand rearend on jack stands with torque tube vertical
Remove axles. A good puller needed. Mitchell sells one.
Remove radius rods from backing plates and torque tube
Remove speedometer housing
Remove torque tube
Remove speedo gear and bearing from front of torque tube
Remove transmission
Remove clutch and flywheel
Cut torque tube approximately 7” from rear flange
Remove 10” from front half of tube
Machine back ½” of front tube to fit in back portion of tube
Be sure to keep proper alignment of radius rod mount and flange bolts.
A total of 11.5” of length now removed from tube. Weld tube.
Remove driveshaft and pinion gear from banjo using Mitchell pinion puller.
Remove 11.5” from rear of driveshaft about 7” ahead of pinion gear.
Align drive shaft pieces and weld.
Install pinion gear back into banjo using Mitchell installer tool.
Install torque tube over driveshaft and bolt to banjo.
Install new front bearing in torque tube and reinstall speedo gear.
Install speedometer housing.
Install new pilot bearing in flywheel.
Install ring gear on flywheel.
Install Burtz 30 lb. flywheel, torque to 55 lbs.
Install V8 clutch with Chev splined disk.
Torque clutch bolts to 25 lbs.
Install AA bell housing,
Remove 5/8” from input nose.
Cut out rear mount from transmission.
Install transmission adaptor from Vintage Metalworks.
With S10 T5 complete less transfer case, install to bell housing.
Install tail shaft adaptor kit from Vintage Metalworks..
Install front half of clam shell
Install rearend assembly back into universal joint.
Install split part of clam shell.
Clamp in rear spring.
Install cross member modified to fit over transmission.
Cut center from brake cross shaft and modify as per diagram.
It is imperative to keep the ends of the shaft where the bearing goes in alignment, I had three tries before I got it right. Perhaps mounting it to the frame before welding might help. I did not do this.
Remount brake cross shaft.
Remove pin from e-brake shaft actuator, move actuator 4” to passenger side and weld.
Mount e-brake cross shaft.
Make mounting plate for e-brake handle as per diagram.
Mount e-brake plate and handle to T5.
Mount pedals to Vintage Metalworks pedal shaft.
Re-install brake rods
Be sure to check all fluids and grease fittings.

Parts highly recommended to upgrade Model A transmission to T5

Mitchell pinion puller/installer
https://mitchelloverdrives.com/mitch...on-puller-kit/
Mitchell hub puller
https://mitchelloverdrives.com/mitchell-hub-puller/
Burtz lightened flywheel
https://burtzblock.com/products/flywheels
Vintage Metalworks
https://vintagemetalworks.blogspot.com/
V8 clutch pressure plate and Chev 9” disk from Speedway

In one installation, I moved the cross member back to clear the transmission and for the other I I modified the cross member by cutting it to fit and reinforcing the cut area. I do not like to weaken the structure of the cross member.

[Zax40]

@wuga Why a S-10 T5 and not a Jeep T5? What are the differences?

[wuga]

The Jeep are much harder to find although I prefer the Jeep since it is shorter. Vintage metalworks now makes an adaptor for the Jeep. Kato King used to make a really nice adaptor as well but I don't know if they are still available. Here is my recipe for the Jeep.
Warren

The Easy and Definitive T5 Upgrade in your Model A 4 Banger

This is best done with the body off.
It assumes mechanical brakes are being retained.
A 1982-86 Jeep T5 less the transfer case is being used.

Remove all brake rods.
Remove center cross member by grinding and removing rivets.
Remove e-brake cross shaft.
Remove e-brake handle.
Remove brake cross shaft.
Unbolt rear spring
Remove clam shell
Slide rearend assembly out from under back of car
Stand rearend on jack stands with torque tube vertical
Remove axles. A good puller needed. Mitchell sells one.
Remove radius rods from backing plates and torque tube
Remove speedometer housing
Remove torque tube
Remove speedo gear and bearing from front of torque tube
Remove transmission
Remove clutch and flywheel
Cut torque tube approximately 7” from rear flange
Remove 6.5” from front half of tube
Machine back ½” of front tube to fit in back portion of tube
Be sure to keep proper alignment of radius rod mount and flange bolts.
A total of 7” of length now removed from tube. Weld tube.
Remove driveshaft and pinion gear from banjo using Mitchell pinion puller.
Remove 7” from rear of driveshaft about 7” ahead of pinion gear.
Align drive shaft pieces and weld.
Install pinion gear back into banjo using Mitchell installer tool.
Install torque tube over driveshaft and bolt to banjo.
Install new front bearing in torque tube and reinstall speedo gear.
Install speedometer housing.
Install new pilot bearing in flywheel.
Install ring gear on flywheel.
Install Burtz 30 lb. flywheel, torque to 55 lbs.
Install V8 clutch using disk from Vintage Precision.
Torque clutch bolts to 25 lbs.
Install Vintage Precision bell housing,
Machine T5 input shaft as per instructions from Vintage Precision.
Cut out rear mount from transmission.
With Jeep T5 complete less transfer case, install to bell housing.
Install Kato King adaptor to tail of T5.
Install front half of clam shell
Install rearend assembly back into universal joint.
Install split part of clam shell.
Clamp in rear spring.
Weld 1/8” plate on ends of cross member.
Install cross member 2.625” rearward of original position.
Drill six 5/16” holes in frame and on each end of cross member.
Cut center from brake cross shaft and modify as per diagram.
It is imperative to keep the ends of the shaft where the bearing goes in alignment, I had three tries before I got it right. Perhaps mounting it to the frame before welding might help. I did not do this.
Remount brake cross shaft. One bolt will be under cross member.
Remove pin from e-brake shaft actuator, move actuator 4” to passenger side and weld.
Mount e-brake cross shaft.
Make mounting plate for e-brake handle as per diagram.
Mount e-brake plate and handle to T5.
Mount pedals to Vintage Precision pedal shaft.
Re-install brake rods
Be sure to check all fluids and grease fittings.

Parts highly recommended to upgrade Model A transmission to T5

Mitchell pinion puller/installer
https://mitchelloverdrives.com/mitch...on-puller-kit/
Mitchell hub puller
https://mitchelloverdrives.com/mitchell-hub-puller/
Burtz lightened flywheel
https://burtzblock.com/products/flywheels
Vintage Precision bell housing
http://www.vintageprecision.com/prod...ngs/index.html
Vintage Precision 9” clutch disk
V8 clutch pressure plate from speedway
Kato King Jeep to closed driveshaft adaptor (507-382-9415)
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...apter.1002913/
Jeep 1982-86 T5 transmission. (Shortest T5)
The Borg Warner T5 transmissions were standard shift five-speed transmissions found in 1982 to 1986 Jeep CJ models.

I posted this on the HAMB with pictures and drawings for reference.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...#post-14769385

[Bruce of MN]

Thanks, that is very comprehensive.