The Ford Barn

Ayers1 · 02-13-2025, 05:36 PM

I can do a lot of things on an A but I've never rebuilt an engine before. Forgive me for what may be a dumb question. Back several months ago I had the engine out of my car because it was knocking. When I opened it up I found several teeth missing/chewed up on the timing gear. I turned it around to TDC and the dots lined up on the cam and crank gears. I replaced the gear, checked bearing clearance and put it back in the car. Last week I tried to start it and finally figured out that I had to set the time to #3 cylinder to get it to run. It doesn't run great but it runs. I can tell that the engine was rebuilt before I bought it last year so, should it run with the cam 180 degrees out? Thanks,

AL in NY · 02-13-2025, 05:48 PM

No.

Hitman · 02-13-2025, 06:46 PM

No.

You can't have the cam and crank gear lined up and have the cam off 180*. The locating pins for the cam gear are offset from the cam centerline, so the gear only goes on one way and can't be located 180* off.

Richard Knight · 02-13-2025, 07:16 PM

Did you reset the cam in the distributor? Essential RE time the engine.

johnneilson · 02-13-2025, 08:03 PM

It depends on what is 180 out of time
Crank 180 out no
Cam at 180 is one revolution on crank so no problem

J

Ayers1 · 02-13-2025, 08:22 PM

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When I had the engine out and at TDC, #1 piston was up, both valves closed, so to me that was correct. After I got it back together, I set the distributor in and timed it like you're supposed to. When I tried to start it, it popped back through the carb and never tried to start. I messed with it for over an hour and couldn't get it to do much. It would eventually start but would barely stay running like the timing was too slow. I finally pulled the plugs, cranked the engine over until I could see the piston up and the pin in the dimple. Where it would run the best was timed with #3 post in the cap instead of #1. I do have to add, it has a nurex upper plate with modern points and condenser in it. Will that make a difference?
BTW, thanks for the info Hitman, didn't realize the cam gear would only go on 1 way.

nkaminar · 02-14-2025, 07:56 AM

The car will run fine with the cam 180 degrees out. But the timing will have to be set to #4. The firing order is 1-2-4-3. There is something weird with Avers' engine. It should not run with it timed on #3. With the cam 180 degrees out the new firing order would be 4-3-1-2.

The camshaft timing gear will only go on one way, as Hitman said. The only way to get the cam 180 degrees out is by aligning the timing gear on the crankshaft gear 180 degrees out.

I suggest going back to first principles. Take all 4 plugs out. Turn the engine over until #1 is at the top. Then look at the valves in #4. They should just be cracked open because there is an overlap in the valve timing. Check this by rocking the engine back and forth a little to see that the exhaust valve is closing while the intake is opening. If this is not the case, then the gears are not aligned as they should be and that will have to be fixed.

While the #1 piston is up, the points should just be opening with the ignition retarded. If not, there is some checking to do. Make sure the ignition timing will rotate the upper plate from one end of the distributor housing slot to the other. The points should be adjusted to 0.020 gap when fully open. If Avers has changed out the ignition components at the same time as changing out the timing gear then the component should be checked. The condensor and coil can be checked with an ohm meter.

ThirstyThirty · 02-14-2025, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnneilson

It depends on what is 180 out of time
Crank 180 out no Cam at 180 is one revolution on crank so no problem J

years ago, when we was still kids, (17) they had the new Precision Engines (Seattle) hot 327 mill in the 5-7! and i got invited to attend the start up along with a few other neighborhood kids. so off we went to the other guy's home/garage. there is was... in its mighty glory! just waiting to come to life! it was a BIG moment... and then finally, time to crank her... eerrrr, errrrr, errrrr..... and again, eerrrr, eeerrrr.... this n that, over n over! nothing! after about 45 mins of 'f' around with all that, we left and went home. next day, they tried again, this time pulling the sweet lil 5-7 (black) down the road and back. nothing! few pops i was told. so over came another guy, and soon it was running! distr out 180!! (lol)

in my engine building day, i always set it up so first crank of the starter and it was a V-ROOMM! every time! TDC, fuel in carb, good batt, and distr set and checked to produce the spark at plug with a lil twisty... by hand, key ON. if the engine did not immediately start and come to life for its break in run i considered the first start up a failure. keyword: immediate! no variances!!~

I did not have failures!! failures not allowed in my shop!

Dr Foot · 02-14-2025, 09:08 AM

I had a similar problem and after some time, I discovered that the distributor gear had loosened on its shaft and screwed up the timing. Changed it out and problem solved.

Jim Brierley · 02-14-2025, 12:02 PM

With the marks (dots) on the cam and crank lined up together, everything is in time except the dist. At this point no piston will be at TDC. With the timing pin in, at the front cover, is the time to set the dist. at #1 firing. In any other condition the engine [U]might[U] run, but just barely. Good luck!

Ayers1 · 02-14-2025, 02:10 PM

Thanks for all the helpful information! Weather has been a little ugly around here this week so I haven't messed with it much. Hopefully this weekend I can play a bit and get it figured out.

halpeters · 02-14-2025, 09:30 PM

The answer is Yes, the engine will run fine, but....

The cam turns at 1/2 the speed of the crank, i.e. the cam turns 1/2 revolution for every 1 revolution of the crank - this is why the cam gears are different sizes. This is necessary for the 4 cycles - intake, compression ignition/work, and exhaust.

So, every other revolution of the engine, the cam is 180 degrees off, from the gear marks. Perfectly normal.

This is why you may need to rotate an engine up to 2 full revolutions, to find top dead center, on the compression stroke.

If your cam is off 180 degrees, exactly, then rotate the engine 1 full revolution, and the marks will line up.

Hal

nkaminar · 02-15-2025, 07:35 AM

Here is how I learned the 4 cycles of a 4-cycle engine (at a very young age):

Suck, squeeze, pop, phooey.

The start of an engineering career.

Ayers1 · 02-15-2025, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Here is how I learned the 4 cycles of a 4-cycle engine (at a very young age):

Suck, squeeze, pop, phooey.

The start of an engineering career.

That's funny! I never thought about it quite like that before!

Ayers1 · 02-15-2025, 05:13 PM

I got out in the garage today and played with it a little. I realized that sometimes I hide my dumba**Ness well and other times I put it on full display like here. The cam is apparently set up 180 degrees off, which from what I'm reading here, isn't the end of the world. I was thinking that I was timing it on #3 cylinder in the distributor body but according to the timing order it is actually #4. If you look at the distributor body I have to use the post directly opposite of the #1 post. As long as I remember that it will be fine. One thing that messed with me a little was the nu-Rex plate and points. I wasn't sure if that changed anything but apparently it doesn't. I'm going to run it like this for now and if I decide to put a high compression head on it in the future I'll set the timing up properly. Thanks for everyone's suggestions and advice!

nkaminar · 02-15-2025, 05:38 PM

Glad you got it working. How well?

Thanks for the update.

How did the cam gear get put on 180 degrees out? The pins on the end of the cam that register the gear are not 180, but close, maybe 178 degrees. It is possible to force a fiber gear on 180 degrees out but the holes in the gear will be buggered up. The cam is probably close to 180 degrees out but not exactly. If the gear was forced on the pins 180 degrees out you will still be able to use the dimple in the gear for timing, but on #4 cylinder. And the points timed this way will probably be a few degrees off. But that should not matter if you use the advance lever properly. The valve timing will probably also be a few degrees off too, but that should not matter very much.

I suggest you buy an aluminum gear and put that on when you get a chance.

Ayers1 · 02-15-2025, 07:52 PM

It idled pretty decent but it didn't want to Rev up very fast. Seems like something is holding it back. I didn't run it long because it was 35 degrees and raining here so it got cold with the door open quick! There's a man in our local club that rebuilds A engines and I'm going to ask him to help me on it. I am expecting him to say we need to pull the timing cover and maybe the head and get it right. If I run into something else I'll pass it on!

nkaminar · 02-16-2025, 04:57 AM

The ignition and valve timing is probably off enough to make it not run 100%. Replace the cam gear with an aluminum one.

Ayers1 · 02-16-2025, 07:52 AM

I think in the long run that's going to be best. When I had the engine apart I could tell it was freshly rebuilt, no wear in the cylinders, bearings looked new. I was hoping I wouldn't have to do much. Oh well, it could be worse!
This has been an odd experience restoring this car. The running gear was totally gone through. When I looked at it I crawled under it and checked it out and it looked nice. Once I had the body off and checked out the running gear I found a lot of things had been switched side to side. Example, backing plates, brake arms were switched side to side, brake rods were turned end over end. Not sure what I'll find next!

02-13-2025, 05:48 PM	#2
AL in NY Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern Upstate New York Posts: 1,209	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? No. __________________ AL in NY

02-13-2025, 08:03 PM	#5
johnneilson Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: 34.22 N 118.36 W Posts: 1,181	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? It depends on what is 180 out of time Crank 180 out no Cam at 180 is one revolution on crank so no problem J __________________ As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

02-13-2025, 08:22 PM	#6
Ayers1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Waynesboro Va. Posts: 504	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) When I had the engine out and at TDC, #1 piston was up, both valves closed, so to me that was correct. After I got it back together, I set the distributor in and timed it like you're supposed to. When I tried to start it, it popped back through the carb and never tried to start. I messed with it for over an hour and couldn't get it to do much. It would eventually start but would barely stay running like the timing was too slow. I finally pulled the plugs, cranked the engine over until I could see the piston up and the pin in the dimple. Where it would run the best was timed with #3 post in the cap instead of #1. I do have to add, it has a nurex upper plate with modern points and condenser in it. Will that make a difference? BTW, thanks for the info Hitman, didn't realize the cam gear would only go on 1 way.

02-14-2025, 07:56 AM	#7
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 5,851	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? The car will run fine with the cam 180 degrees out. But the timing will have to be set to #4. The firing order is 1-2-4-3. There is something weird with Avers' engine. It should not run with it timed on #3. With the cam 180 degrees out the new firing order would be 4-3-1-2. The camshaft timing gear will only go on one way, as Hitman said. The only way to get the cam 180 degrees out is by aligning the timing gear on the crankshaft gear 180 degrees out. I suggest going back to first principles. Take all 4 plugs out. Turn the engine over until #1 is at the top. Then look at the valves in #4. They should just be cracked open because there is an overlap in the valve timing. Check this by rocking the engine back and forth a little to see that the exhaust valve is closing while the intake is opening. If this is not the case, then the gears are not aligned as they should be and that will have to be fixed. While the #1 piston is up, the points should just be opening with the ignition retarded. If not, there is some checking to do. Make sure the ignition timing will rotate the upper plate from one end of the distributor housing slot to the other. The points should be adjusted to 0.020 gap when fully open. If Avers has changed out the ignition components at the same time as changing out the timing gear then the component should be checked. The condensor and coil can be checked with an ohm meter. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 02-14-2025 at 09:30 AM.

02-14-2025, 09:08 AM	#9
Dr Foot Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 39	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? I had a similar problem and after some time, I discovered that the distributor gear had loosened on its shaft and screwed up the timing. Changed it out and problem solved.

02-13-2025, 05:36 PM	#1
Ayers1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Waynesboro Va. Posts: 504	Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? I can do a lot of things on an A but I've never rebuilt an engine before. Forgive me for what may be a dumb question. Back several months ago I had the engine out of my car because it was knocking. When I opened it up I found several teeth missing/chewed up on the timing gear. I turned it around to TDC and the dots lined up on the cam and crank gears. I replaced the gear, checked bearing clearance and put it back in the car. Last week I tried to start it and finally figured out that I had to set the time to #3 cylinder to get it to run. It doesn't run great but it runs. I can tell that the engine was rebuilt before I bought it last year so, should it run with the cam 180 degrees out? Thanks,

02-13-2025, 06:46 PM	#3
Hitman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 822	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? No. You can't have the cam and crank gear lined up and have the cam off 180. The locating pins for the cam gear are offset from the cam centerline, so the gear only goes on one way and can't be located 180 off.

02-13-2025, 07:16 PM	#4
Richard Knight Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 243	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? Did you reset the cam in the distributor? Essential RE time the engine.

02-14-2025, 12:02 PM	#10
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,251	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? With the marks (dots) on the cam and crank lined up together, everything is in time except the dist. At this point no piston will be at TDC. With the timing pin in, at the front cover, is the time to set the dist. at #1 firing. In any other condition the engine [U]might[U] run, but just barely. Good luck!

02-14-2025, 02:10 PM	#11
Ayers1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Waynesboro Va. Posts: 504	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? Thanks for all the helpful information! Weather has been a little ugly around here this week so I haven't messed with it much. Hopefully this weekend I can play a bit and get it figured out.

02-14-2025, 09:30 PM	#12
halpeters Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2024 Posts: 17	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? The answer is Yes, the engine will run fine, but.... The cam turns at 1/2 the speed of the crank, i.e. the cam turns 1/2 revolution for every 1 revolution of the crank - this is why the cam gears are different sizes. This is necessary for the 4 cycles - intake, compression ignition/work, and exhaust. So, every other revolution of the engine, the cam is 180 degrees off, from the gear marks. Perfectly normal. This is why you may need to rotate an engine up to 2 full revolutions, to find top dead center, on the compression stroke. If your cam is off 180 degrees, exactly, then rotate the engine 1 full revolution, and the marks will line up. Hal

02-15-2025, 07:35 AM	#13
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 5,851	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? Here is how I learned the 4 cycles of a 4-cycle engine (at a very young age): Suck, squeeze, pop, phooey. The start of an engineering career. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

02-15-2025, 05:13 PM	#15
Ayers1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Waynesboro Va. Posts: 504	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? I got out in the garage today and played with it a little. I realized that sometimes I hide my dumba**Ness well and other times I put it on full display like here. The cam is apparently set up 180 degrees off, which from what I'm reading here, isn't the end of the world. I was thinking that I was timing it on #3 cylinder in the distributor body but according to the timing order it is actually #4. If you look at the distributor body I have to use the post directly opposite of the #1 post. As long as I remember that it will be fine. One thing that messed with me a little was the nu-Rex plate and points. I wasn't sure if that changed anything but apparently it doesn't. I'm going to run it like this for now and if I decide to put a high compression head on it in the future I'll set the timing up properly. Thanks for everyone's suggestions and advice!

02-15-2025, 05:38 PM	#16
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 5,851	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? Glad you got it working. How well? Thanks for the update. How did the cam gear get put on 180 degrees out? The pins on the end of the cam that register the gear are not 180, but close, maybe 178 degrees. It is possible to force a fiber gear on 180 degrees out but the holes in the gear will be buggered up. The cam is probably close to 180 degrees out but not exactly. If the gear was forced on the pins 180 degrees out you will still be able to use the dimple in the gear for timing, but on #4 cylinder. And the points timed this way will probably be a few degrees off. But that should not matter if you use the advance lever properly. The valve timing will probably also be a few degrees off too, but that should not matter very much. I suggest you buy an aluminum gear and put that on when you get a chance. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 02-15-2025 at 05:52 PM.

02-15-2025, 07:52 PM	#17
Ayers1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Waynesboro Va. Posts: 504	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? It idled pretty decent but it didn't want to Rev up very fast. Seems like something is holding it back. I didn't run it long because it was 35 degrees and raining here so it got cold with the door open quick! There's a man in our local club that rebuilds A engines and I'm going to ask him to help me on it. I am expecting him to say we need to pull the timing cover and maybe the head and get it right. If I run into something else I'll pass it on!

02-16-2025, 04:57 AM	#18
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 5,851	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? The ignition and valve timing is probably off enough to make it not run 100%. Replace the cam gear with an aluminum one. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

02-16-2025, 07:52 AM	#19
Ayers1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Waynesboro Va. Posts: 504	Re: Can an engine run with camshaft 180 degrees off? I think in the long run that's going to be best. When I had the engine apart I could tell it was freshly rebuilt, no wear in the cylinders, bearings looked new. I was hoping I wouldn't have to do much. Oh well, it could be worse! This has been an odd experience restoring this car. The running gear was totally gone through. When I looked at it I crawled under it and checked it out and it looked nice. Once I had the body off and checked out the running gear I found a lot of things had been switched side to side. Example, backing plates, brake arms were switched side to side, brake rods were turned end over end. Not sure what I'll find next!