Alternator -vs-generator

[springerpete]

I have the powerhouse generator on my 29. The ammeter shows a + 9-10 amp charge while driving but if I use the lights I get a - 3 or 4 amp discharge. With the + charge I am getting I figure I can not adjust the 3rd brush for a higher charge without doing damage. I do have quite a few instances when I want to drive my car in poor daylight mornings and evenings. Is an alternator my most realistic option ? Thanks for your thouights, Bill.

[Franchise_24]

Depends on your distance. I can drive with lights on and discharge for quite some time. If you have a long distance just adjust your brush.

[Bruce Adams]

With head lights on I show NO DISCHARGE with my 6V alternator, but I wonder how many amps you draw with the engind off.
You might have some kind of short that is demanding all that power.
How many negative amps on the meter with the engine off and headlights on?

[Paul from Maine]

Originally Posted by springerpete

I have the powerhouse generator on my 29. The ammeter shows a + 9-10 amp charge while driving but if I use the lights I get a - 3 or 4 amp discharge. With the + charge I am getting I figure I can not adjust the 3rd brush for a higher charge without doing damage. I do have quite a few instances when I want to drive my car in poor daylight mornings and evenings. Is an alternator my most realistic option ? Thanks for your thouights, Bill.

Buy the voltage regulator offered by the vendors to replace the cut out. then you can adjust the generator to maximum output without boiling over the battery. I have the later generator which is less powerful than yours and have no problem running sealed beamed headlights with dual tail and brakelights. If you decide to get an alternator, I'll buy the powerhouse off you if the price is right! I'm just down the road in Oxford Hills!

[Jerry Parr WI]

The adjustment was expected to be set for the average load. Sometimes to high sometimes to low. For long drives with a heavy load the output should be readjusted. For those of us who are lazy modern regulators are made that fit in the generator.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Alternator? Bad language is frowned on here!

Why not install an electronic voltage regulator and have the best of both worlds!

The first 2 pictures show the EVR install on an unrestored 5 brush powerhouse. I also make a different shape EVR for the 3 brush powerhouse. The last picture shows the EVR installed on the common long generator. The only time my powerhouse shows a discharge is when I'm idling at a red light and have the headlights on and my foot on the brake (brake lights also on). Then it's only an amp or two and just while the brake light is on at idle. All other times the amp meter shows about 1 amp because I'm not overcharging the battery.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

We're not going to get into that alternator arguement thing again, I hope! Alternators ain't UGLY! Main advantage is that the battery is NEVER undercharged or overcharged!
Eliminates always doodling with the 3rd brush, and what if you loose your CHOP STICKS?? I don't even like Chinese food! Bill W.

[Kurt in NJ]

I have the charging rate of my generator set to about 14 amps, it works out to 1 amp + charge with the lights on( Quartz Halogen), the Optima battery is now about 14 years old, about 7 years ago it was on the trickle charger for 10 min because I left the ignition on for 3 months ---hand cranked it, drove it for 60 miles without turning the lights on ----normally I turn on the headlights after about 40 miles, turn them off about 10 miles from home if it's daylight, the generator has been more reliable than the alternator in my 74 chevy truck(same type as used to make A alternators)---it has been rebuilt 3 times in the same miles over 30 years ---I havn't touched the generator except to adjust the charge in 40 years.

It says in the owners manual that the ammeter should show a discharge with the headlights on.

With a generator the belt should seem to be quite loose ---it doesn't need a lot of tension to prevent slippage at the generator ---with the small pulley the alternator needs to spin fast the belt needs to be tight to prevent slippage ---them you have to think about water pump modifications, belt wear

[dr.j]

Bill,
I have a powerhouse with Tom's EVR unit. I add a small amount of water each spring and forget it. The battery is 5 years of age, never over charges and shows a small discharge with lights on at idle. I have a diode in my cutout. The combination is fault free. Soon I will be sending Tom a slant case powerhouse (Canadian I beleive) for a rebuild and EVR in order that I have a perfect good working spare.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Not only does the small alternator pulley offer less grip on the belt, but most of the alternators I see don't line up due to the brackets being made wrong. Generators can run the belt loose enough to easily flex 1 1/2" midway from the fan to the generator and not slip.

[springerpete]

Thanks guys for your input. Without the engine running the parking lights show a 2-3 amp discharge and the high and low beams are about -11 amps. I will ask around about the modern regulators and see .

[Bob-A]

I run a 1935 Chevy truck Delco-Remy generator with the Delco cut-out
in my '31 roadster. Works great and puts out more juice if needed then the Ford genny.

Bob-A

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by springerpete

I have the powerhouse generator on my 29. The ammeter shows a + 9-10 amp charge while driving but if I use the lights I get a - 3 or 4 amp discharge. With the + charge I am getting I figure I can not adjust the 3rd brush for a higher charge without doing damage. I do have quite a few instances when I want to drive my car in poor daylight mornings and evenings. Is an alternator my most realistic option ? Thanks for your thouights, Bill.

Sounds good to me, I have used the same settings for years. Unless you are going to drive for hours with the lights on you will have no problem.

[HoarseWhisperer]

It is amusing when some "hope" that we are not going to get into the Alternator vs Generator argument, then continue to argue about it.

I would imagine there are hobbyists that appreciate people like Tom who can furnish a voltage regulation solution for those interested in preserving the original appearance of Model A components, such as the generator.

[Tom F OHIO]

Tom, can your set-up be put in a regulator generator?? I dont have what you call a powerhouse generator. I do have a brand new cutout with the diode that could be put on my generator.

[Mike V. Florida]

In fairness there are three regulators available for the Model A genny.

Tom's
Fun Projects
and
James Pererson's in the band.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Tom F OHIO

Tom, can your set-up be put in a regulator generator?? I dont have what you call a powerhouse generator. I do have a brand new cutout with the diode that could be put on my generator.

Yes, that would be the last picture in post #6. The early Autolite style generator has a ball bearing in the rear (1929-March 1930) then changed to a bushing. They both take the same EVR pictured.

Sometimes people use the post Model A generators with the spring clips for the adjustble brush riveted in place. This takes a different style EVR.

[Jerry Parr WI]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

We're not going to get into that alternator arguement thing again, I hope! Alternators ain't UGLY! Main advantage is that the battery is NEVER undercharged or overcharged!
Eliminates always doodling with the 3rd brush, and what if you loose your CHOP STICKS?? I don't even like Chinese food! Bill W.

Thing is it's not the alternator that maintains the charge rate it's the built in regulator. Adding the regulator to a generator gives you the good without the bad.

[Purdy Swoft]

I prefer the generator. I like the original look and the fact that I can repair the generator my self if needed, not so with the alternator. To improve operation and make it simple, I use the Fun Projects regulator. They are all good, but the Fun Projects regulator takes the place of the cut out, it solves two problems. Because the Fun Projects regulator has no points to stick, thats one headache out of the way. The other is that it gives voltage regulation like modern cars.

For the sake of fairness, here is a picture of mine. The Fun Projects can style regulator looks near if not identical to the model T carry over cut out that was used on the early 1928 cars or the repro cutouts that were sold by W&co. and many others. It isn't identical to the later style cutouts but that would only be noticed by the experts. I have no problem running one on my later model A.

[Duffy1]

My AC requires 23 amps plus say 6 amps for lights equal say 30 amps . Will a generator put out 30 amps ?

[Brobrian]

Fifteen years ago, after tampering with gen outputs that would suit my needs in various seasons, I put in an alternator. I've still got the powerhouse, but I just never found the need to put it back in. Some of the other choices were unknown to me then. But I've enjoyed many years of trouble-free driving under all seasons and conditions using an alternator.

[Purdy Swoft]

I haven't tried it yet but Bratton offeres a sixty amp armature for the tube type model A generators . The only problem that I see besides changeing the internal ground would be hiding a modern style box regulator and a couple of wires for the original look.

The armature is the main thing in the model A generator that limits amperage. Twelve volts is NO problem for any model A generator. If the look of the box style regulator that was used on fifties cars isn't a problem , it would be fairly easy. You would need to run the internal ground from the field coils and connect it to the field terminal on the regulator. You could connect the small wire from the starter switch to the bat. terminal on the regulator. The arm terminal on the regulator would connect in the terminal post on the generator. I suppose that the box style regulator could be hidden under the seat. A gutted cutout could be mounted to the generator for looks and you could be creative about how you hid the wires. Just a thought, not necessarily a recommendation.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Yes, that would be the last picture in post #6. The early Autolite style generator has a ball bearing in the rear (1929-March 1930) then changed to a bushing. They both take the same EVR pictured.

Sometimes people use the post Model A generators with the spring clips for the adjustble brush riveted in place. This takes a different style EVR.

Tom, I am one that knows nothing about electrical things. So where does one get an EVR unit like you mentioned in your posts? Do the vendors carry them and if so what does one look for? Again the old no-nothing guy!

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

My AC requires 23 amps plus say 6 amps for lights equal say 30 amps . Will a generator put out 30 amps ?

Hopefully you don't plan on running a 6 volt generator for a 12 volt ac system. I've heard of people using a 6v generator on 12 volts system, but I don't think it will put out the power for your ac. Every 12 volt alternator sold by vendors SHOULD put out 60 amps. Some have sold 100 amp alternators but that isn't needed on a model a, even with a/c.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Yes, we don't really "NEED" an alternator on our "A"'s I worked on a lot of "modern cars", so they sorta' appeal to me. It was exciting when they first came out & we were taught how they work, how to test & repair them, etc. Took me awhile to understand how a diode worked, the instructor didn't know diddley about explaining it!! Finally found my layman's answer in an encyclopedia article on solid state semiconductors! I HATE "mysteries," I have to know how something "WORKS!" Bill W. (we should use what we want, as long as it keeps our battery charged!)

[HoarseWhisperer]

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Originally Posted by Brobrian

I've still got the powerhouse, but I just never found the need to put it back in.

Brobrian,

We have a club member with an 28' unrestored truck who is looking for an "early" powerhouse if you are interested in selling.

[SDJason]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

Tom, I am one that knows nothing about electrical things. So where does one get an EVR unit like you mentioned in your posts? Do the vendors carry them and if so what does one look for? Again the old no-nothing guy!

Fred, for you, I'd recommend the Fun Projects Voltage Regulator as already mentioned by Mike V - it's a drop-in replacement for the generator cutout; couldn't be easier to install...

[Fred K-OR]

Thanks SDJason. Will have to take a look at it.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

My AC requires 23 amps plus say 6 amps for lights equal say 30 amps . Will a generator put out 30 amps ?

Yes, later 6 and 12 volt generators with cooling slots and a fan can put out that much. If I had A/C that would be a good option.

[Cory Moffat]

I have a fun Projects regulator on my gen also. Works great

[ctlikon0712]

Tom, would it be a fair statement that if a person were to run your reg that they then could run a stock appearing/restored cutout for Judging and no one would be the wiser? No external wire differences?

And I just have to say that I am sure the other regs are nice and have their merits, but Tom gives advice here freely all the time and I would rather support a Barner.

That's just my opinion.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by ctlikon0712

Tom, would it be a fair statement that if a person were to run your reg that they then could run a stock appearing/restored cutout for Judging and no one would be the wiser? No external wire differences?

And I just have to say that I am sure the other regs are nice and have their merits, but Tom gives advice here freely all the time and I would rather support a Barner.

That's just my opinion.

Yes, just remove the adjustable brush and install the EVR. You can use a stock original cutout, as I do, or you can use a diode cutout. No way to tell there's an EVR inside, unless you remove the cover or band.

[Purdy Swoft]

If I installed an air condition, I wouldn't be concerned about original look and would just go ahead and use an alternator. The bracketry is probably made for useing an alternator anyway.

I haven't yet tried it but a sixty amp armature is available from Bratton that will allow the model A generator to charge 60 amps. I run a cooler band on my 12 volt model A generator. It is an air scoop that allows the fan to blow air over the commutator and brushes. I figure that this accessory band cools the commutator better than the newer generators with slots and fan on the pulley. The cooler band can be easily removed and replaced with an original for car shows, it only has one screw.

[MALAK]

Or if you want a generator look with an alternator output there is this>>>>http://www.gener-nator.com/
Not cheap though.

[Brobrian]

Originally Posted by HoarseWhisperer

Brobrian,

We have a club member with an 28' unrestored truck who is looking for an "early" powerhouse if you are interested in selling.

Sorry, I only have the one and watching this thread makes me think I should put a regulator in it and put it back on the car.

[TinCup]

The A/C kit that Ken Davis sells requires 12V and the brackets are designed for an altenator.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Brobrian

Sorry, I only have the one and watching this thread makes me think I should put a regulator in it and put it back on the car.

I wouldn't change it. You just got done saying it's suited you for 15 years. Keep the Generator as a back up & save your $.

[HoarseWhisperer]

Originally Posted by Brobrian

Sorry, I only have the one and watching this thread makes me think I should put a regulator in it and put it back on the car.

Yes, I understand.

But, I think you should listen to Jordan, then sell me the powerhouse and make some $.

[Ray64]

I also use TOMS EVR and dont worry about it. Lights on or off she always charges

[Special Coupe Frank]

Just as a general point of automotive evolution, third-brush generators were a thing of the past by about 1940... the "modern" automatic three-unit voltage regulator was being employed by the big three, and most other mfrs, and generally worked very well, tailoring the generator output to suit varying load demands (headlamps, heater, radio, etc.).

This was a solution to changes in vehicle demands (more electrical demands) and owners' driving habits (more night-time driving, longer driving over improving highways).

The mechanical voltage regulator served well, and survived the transition to the 12-volt era.

All that said, a properly functioning 3rd-brush genny & cut-out still works as well today, as it did in 1928... and it still will not automatically adapt to varying load-conditions.

Since there now seem to be options to upgrade the stock Ford gennys (both Powerhouse and "Long-frame") with modern voltage regulators (tastefully disguised / concealed), they should function just as well as a 1940 or later generator system.

Personally, I have been driving old iron for some 30 years now, most if it six-volt, and have never been compelled to change-out a generator for an alternator. (Or convert to 12 volts, for that matter.)

My '28 Special Coupe does have a 6-volt postive-ground alternator in it, but it came with the car. It works, so it is staying until I run across a stock genny at an attractive price...

If I had a decent Powerhouse, I would probably spring for Tom's concealed EVR...

Cheers,

SC Frank

[TudooR31]

I am replacing my worn out generator with a 6V 60 amp alternator.
I understand I need to change my 20-20 amp meter to a 30-30 amp meter.
What happens to the 20-20 if I don't change it?
And will the 30-30 be sufficient for the 60 amp alternator?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by TudooR31

I am replacing my worn out generator with a 6V 60 amp alternator.
I understand I need to change my 20-20 amp meter to a 30-30 amp meter.
What happens to the 20-20 if I don't change it?
And will the 30-30 be sufficient for the 60 amp alternator?

You really don't need to change the ammeter if your 20-20 is working OK. How often do you expect to charge or draw more than 20 amps? My powerhouse can put out at least 15 amps, but I don't see my ammeter charge more than about 7 amps and the lights don't draw more than 10 amps. I have an EVR iside the powerhouse, so the needle almost always is near 0 to +2 amps.

[cpetku]

My goal is to keep as much original as I can afford (and stand).

That said I plan to rebuild the dead generator that the PO had swapped out for an alternator one day. As I recall, Ford had a lot of service bullitens about the correct seting for the generator over the years. Eventually owners started running the lights manually to help with regulating charge to avoid damaging the battery through over-charging.

Sounds like your generator is working just fine, so it all depends on what you want it to look like when you open up the hood.

That said, I ordered float a motor mounts before I realized the originals had pads that need to be replaced as general maintenance. Big chunks of original steel look so much more quaint than aluminum members.

[steve s]

If you adjust your third brush to adequately charge while idling with lights on, then you risk burning up the generator while driving during the daylight. I fried two, in a younger day. If you don't want to mess with a regulator, a simple fix is to drive with your lights on during the day, which is not a bad idea anyhow.

I sure do like my alternator; can't imagine going back.

Steve