The Ford Barn

Mart · 05-02-2011, 01:19 PM

The spring does not touch the guide retainer (horseshoe clip) . It touches the guide, the retainer sits in a groove in the guide. But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place.

That is, it holds it in place when shiny and new. As time goes by, the orneriness kicks in gradually until it takes over completely.

Anybody that has never done the job will not have a clue what we are talking about. Those that have done the job will know exactly what we are on about.. LOL.

Mart.

Tim Ayers · 05-02-2011, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

The spring does not touch the guide retainer (horseshoe clip) . It touches the guide, the retainer sits in a groove in the guide. But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place.

That is, it holds it in place when shiny and new. As time goes by, the orneriness kicks in gradually until it takes over completely.

Anybody that has never done the job will not have a clue what we are talking about. Those that have done the job will know exactly what we are on about.. LOL.

Mart.

Mart:

A badge of flathead honor is at least one scar from doing the tear down.

Tim

blown49 · 05-02-2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoop

This is a tool I have that was designed to remove flathead valves.

IF the valve is not stuck in the guide, it can be lifted and the tool slipped under the valve. The upper end of the tool is a slide-hammer which is used to knock the valve guide down enough to remove the horseshoe clip.

The entire valve assembly can then be levered out.

It is more helpful/applicable to mushroom style valves (will work on both styles), BUT I posted it because it demonstrates the need for one of the removal steps ... tap the guide down.

Edit: By the way, it sounded like someone was suggesting that spring pressure holds the clip in ... the spring, actually, does not touch the clip and, with the valve closed, does not press the clip. Sheer orneriness holds it in.

HOOP,

Complete manufacture's instructions for using this tool are on my website.

Jim

Hoop · 05-02-2011, 02:02 PM

"But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place.

That is, it holds it in place when shiny and new. As time goes by, the orneriness kicks in gradually until it takes over completely."

Mart,

You are correct, of course. There is enough spring pressure to hold the assembly together and in place, but not enough to keep you from slipping the clips out ... later on it's not spring pressure that makes them hard to remove.

You said it much better.

(Edit: Jim, nice website and great Merc. Thanks for the instructions.)

flatjack9 · 05-02-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

If your guides are frozen in place by rust or carbonization (and most are) the Hook is going to break alot of clips because the guide has to move down to get the clips out.

No it doesn't. The lock is ductile enough to deform when pried out. And I have used that tool with the tit in the prying mode and also by hammering on the end. Works about the same. Most of the time I can get them out without breaking them. It's obvious that some of the posters have never torn apart a REALLY stuck engine.

Paul Selfe · 05-02-2011, 02:12 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Capn John

You tube for post 48 and pre 48 blocks
http://youtu.be/z8iGXa9H294
http://youtu.be/gB8w3AYE_Tc about 2 minutes into the video

I'm sorry, but that first video was painfull to watch, and unnecessary if you have the proper tools. The second video shows the correct tools being used if you don't care to salvage the guide keepers. He was using a keeper puller that grips the tab and yanks it out of place by deforming it. Both that type and the single hook style puller will remove the keeper and render it useless (I have both types). If the guide is not frozen in place, you can pull it down enough to pull the keeper out with your fingers by using the fork bar that every flatheadder knows about. The guide jack that he used seemed to work effectively. I've never seen that one, but I have a similar one that uses a fine thread screw with a ball end to spread the levers and force the guide up and out through the top. I have used it on some badly frozen guides and never had it fail. Paul Selfe.

Tim Ayers · 05-02-2011, 02:16 PM

You can also find those older KD tool that slips into the valve port from the top of the block and allows you to hammer on top of the guide with the valve still in the guide on E-bay fairly cheaply.

They've worked as well.

I think we can say that works and that doesn't to a lot hypotheical tear downs.

One rule I've learned with dealing with these Old Fords is very few rules are stead fast and true when dealing with flatheads.

Mart · 05-02-2011, 02:17 PM

I've also had a guide that was tight, got the clip out and pried the whole valve assembly up with a big lever, only for it to shoot out and lose itself amongst all the crap on the other side of the garage.

LOL

Aint flatheads fun!

Mart.

Jack E/NJ · 05-02-2011, 02:58 PM

Mart>>>The spring does not touch the guide retainer (horseshoe clip) . It touches the guide, the retainer sits in a groove in the guide. But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place.>>>

Correct on spring not touching the retainer but instead touching the guide's retainer slot. Sorry.

For a super-stuck mushroom guide, it might be necessary to first de-tension the spring by wrestling out its spring retainer. Then fashion a flat but stout drift that reaches the top of the guide below the valve head. Whack the drift till the guide retainer clears the block recess. Even with its retainer out, a super-stuck guide often can't be easily pried up and out. In these stubborn cases, I use the camshaft lobe to lift the guide by turning the crank while sequentially inserting 1/8" shims between the lifter and the spring till the whole assembly comes flying out. So it's best to place a safety net or cloth over valve to catch all the parts as Mart points out.

Jack E/NJ

saints · 05-02-2011, 03:13 PM

well alot of this is cart before the horse type stuff......Ive tore down 4 flatheads in about 2 months and the constant in these have been the lack of moving the valve guide at all evan alittle...Ive bent my spring bar trying to get this to happen also I have the tool to knock the guide down to get the clip out but it doesnt fit my valves... the 8ba valve has a flared stop and the tool wont fit round that

its hard to get the clip out without knocking down the guide and I have the tool top in 1st pic to pull the whole assembly if only I could get the clip out......on the last engine and I still have yet to pull a clip that isnt destorted beyond repair....good thing there cheap

saints · 05-02-2011, 03:15 PM

why I have you all here what id the tools to the right of the valve guide knocking down thing(the official name)
here is a better pick of the questionable tools

Hoop · 05-02-2011, 03:23 PM

"No it doesn't. The lock is ductile enough to deform when pried out. And I have used that tool with the tit in the prying mode and also by hammering on the end. Works about the same. Most of the time I can get them out without breaking them. It's obvious that some of the posters have never torn apart a REALLY stuck engine."

This is the "get a (progressively) bigger hammer" approach familiar to anyone who has had to cut the rods with a torch and break/cut the pistons out trying to salvage a block.

"The lock is ductile enough to deform when pried out."

The last valve removal I got into had the engine's pistons break loose when the fellows tried pushing and rocking the car. Something was still stuck, but with extra effort there were several "pops" and it turned over. I showed up and took a compression check to find most cylinders had no compression.

To shorten the story, naturally a number of valves were stuck open, even though some had moved, but three horseshoe clips had popped out of the guides, and the guides were pushed up with the valves frozen in them.

So, I'm sure they will deform.

flatjack9 · 05-02-2011, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

I've also had a guide that was tight, got the clip out and pried the whole valve assembly up with a big lever, only for it to shoot out and lose itself amongst all the crap on the other side of the garage.

LOL

Aint flatheads fun!

Mart.

I put one through the shop window once. I do put a towel or something like that over them now.

flatjack9 · 05-02-2011, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Mart>>>The spring does not touch the guide retainer (horseshoe clip) . It touches the guide, the retainer sits in a groove in the guide. But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place.>>>

Correct on spring not touching the retainer but instead touching the guide's retainer slot. Sorry.

For a super-stuck mushroom guide, it might be necessary to first de-tension the spring by wrestling out its spring retainer. Then fashion a flat but stout drift that reaches the top of the guide below the valve head. Whack the drift till the guide retainer clears the block recess. Even with its retainer out, a super-stuck guide often can't be easily pried up and out. In these stubborn cases, I use the camshaft lobe to lift the guide by turning the crank while sequentially inserting 1/8" shims between the lifter and the spring till the whole assembly comes flying out. So it's best to place a safety net or cloth over valve to catch all the parts as Mart points out.

Jack E/NJ

I've already broken a cam by trying to turn it to raise a stuck valve.

Bruce Lancaster · 05-02-2011, 05:02 PM

"the 8ba valve has a flared stop and the tool wont fit round that"...actually, that is the tool for four bangers or something...the KD V-8 driver has a much wider lower part and is made to drive farther out near the edge of the flathead guide...there are two models, one a special for the ghastly '32-3 guides with integral shoulder.

There are a bunch of replies on how that retainer is held in...by Ford's design, it sits in a recess that prevents it from moving properly unless the guide itself is moved down a little. Ford, of course, stuck to the fiction that moving the guide down was shop-manual simple...
THe KD drivers, Bown 49's tool, and a bunch of other aftermarket tools were designed to just yank out the guide past its recess, deforming it into junk but saving time that cost far more than a new clip. All give a risk of ripping the tab off instead of moving the clip...
The KD C-clamp tool was of couse meant to be used with the retainer yanker, which allowed the mighty C-clamp to then yank the guide without the lost motion of trying to lower the guide. The guide driver was a backup for those with bad luck on the retainers or not using the C-clamp.
In my experience, the C-clamp is an invinceable puler, but getting the clip out so it can be used can be a touch more difficult than KD implied in the directions.
FWIW, I consider the KD guide lever bar to be the best available in that type of tool.

Jack E/NJ · 05-02-2011, 08:05 PM

Mart>>>I've already broken a cam by trying to turn it to raise a stuck valve.>>>

I believe it, Mart! So I'd go a bit slower on trying to turn the crank and cam. First
detension springs---at least the cam won't also be fighting spring resistance. Then liberally lube the assemblies with acetone-ATF or penetrant of choice. Let sit a day or so. Then try to turn crank as much as you dare. Re-lube and let it set awhile again. Then try to turn the crank again as much as you dare. Repeat as necessary till you've turned the crank 2 full revolutions to loosen all the stuck valves. Then go to sequential shims to get the super stuck-mushroom guides out --- slowly. 8^)

Bruce>>>I consider the KD guide lever bar to be the best available in that type of tool.>>>

I do too as long as it doesn't break off the bottom notches on the guides. If that happens, the homemade drift is probably one of the simplest & best tools to get the guide retainer out of its block recess.

Jack E/NJ

Bruce Lancaster · 05-02-2011, 08:36 PM

And if bottom groove breaks and the end rips off of the keeper...KD is still the salvation using the wide radius driver, a hefty forging cupped to go around the valve and bear on the guide while you pound the %$@$%$%$# out of it.
After that fails you can:
1. Drill the center til valve head falls off, continue with major hammering.
2. Go buy a Honda Civet and laugh at all this nonsense.
3. Find a cheaper, safer, less anti-social hobby like heroin.

Tim Ayers · 05-03-2011, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

And if bottom groove breaks and the end rips off of the keeper...KD is still the salvation using the wide radius driver, a hefty forging cupped to go around the valve and bear on the guide while you pound the %$@$%$%$# out of it.
After that fails you can:
1. Drill the center til valve head falls off, continue with major hammering.
2. Go buy a Honda Civet and laugh at all this nonsense.
3. Find a cheaper, safer, less anti-social hobby like heroin.

Bruce,

Hemmingway would have trouble connecting heroin as a "hobby" just like you were able to do. Poetic and funny.

Tim

bobH · 05-03-2011, 01:01 PM

Interesting discussion.... Like many things 'flathead', there are several ways to get the job done. For the really stuck ones, I still 'subscribe' to the method that I think was posted by Walt, many moons ago (& not posted here). Almost no tools needed... And, quick - maybe a couple hours ??? or less, for all 16. Last time I was involved, it went smooth. And, I'm nearly ready to tear another (really stuck one) apart, so I'll get to experience this 'fun' again soon.

Hoop · 05-03-2011, 02:01 PM

"Almost no tools needed ... I'm nearly ready to tear another (really stuck one) apart, so I'll get to experience this 'fun' again soon. "

05-02-2011, 01:19 PM	#21
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong The spring does not touch the guide retainer (horseshoe clip) . It touches the guide, the retainer sits in a groove in the guide. But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place. That is, it holds it in place when shiny and new. As time goes by, the orneriness kicks in gradually until it takes over completely. Anybody that has never done the job will not have a clue what we are talking about. Those that have done the job will know exactly what we are on about.. LOL. Mart.

05-02-2011, 02:02 PM	#24
Hoop Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 1,137	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong "But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place. That is, it holds it in place when shiny and new. As time goes by, the orneriness kicks in gradually until it takes over completely." Mart, You are correct, of course. There is enough spring pressure to hold the assembly together and in place, but not enough to keep you from slipping the clips out ... later on it's not spring pressure that makes them hard to remove. You said it much better. (Edit: Jim, nice website and great Merc. Thanks for the instructions.) __________________ "Remember that when it comes to intelligence, half of all of us are below average."

05-02-2011, 02:16 PM	#27
Tim Ayers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 6,181	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong You can also find those older KD tool that slips into the valve port from the top of the block and allows you to hammer on top of the guide with the valve still in the guide on E-bay fairly cheaply. They've worked as well. I think we can say that works and that doesn't to a lot hypotheical tear downs. One rule I've learned with dealing with these Old Fords is very few rules are stead fast and true when dealing with flatheads.

05-02-2011, 02:17 PM	#28
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong I've also had a guide that was tight, got the clip out and pried the whole valve assembly up with a big lever, only for it to shoot out and lose itself amongst all the crap on the other side of the garage. LOL Aint flatheads fun! Mart.

05-02-2011, 02:58 PM	#29
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong Mart>>>The spring does not touch the guide retainer (horseshoe clip) . It touches the guide, the retainer sits in a groove in the guide. But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place.>>> Correct on spring not touching the retainer but instead touching the guide's retainer slot. Sorry. For a super-stuck mushroom guide, it might be necessary to first de-tension the spring by wrestling out its spring retainer. Then fashion a flat but stout drift that reaches the top of the guide below the valve head. Whack the drift till the guide retainer clears the block recess. Even with its retainer out, a super-stuck guide often can't be easily pried up and out. In these stubborn cases, I use the camshaft lobe to lift the guide by turning the crank while sequentially inserting 1/8" shims between the lifter and the spring till the whole assembly comes flying out. So it's best to place a safety net or cloth over valve to catch all the parts as Mart points out. Jack E/NJ

05-02-2011, 03:13 PM	#30
saints Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Owasso Ok Posts: 87	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong well alot of this is cart before the horse type stuff......Ive tore down 4 flatheads in about 2 months and the constant in these have been the lack of moving the valve guide at all evan alittle...Ive bent my spring bar trying to get this to happen also I have the tool to knock the guide down to get the clip out but it doesnt fit my valves... the 8ba valve has a flared stop and the tool wont fit round that its hard to get the clip out without knocking down the guide and I have the tool top in 1st pic to pull the whole assembly if only I could get the clip out......on the last engine and I still have yet to pull a clip that isnt destorted beyond repair....good thing there cheap __________________ FLATHEAD ADDICT

05-02-2011, 03:15 PM	#31
saints Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Owasso Ok Posts: 87	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong why I have you all here what id the tools to the right of the valve guide knocking down thing(the official name) here is a better pick of the questionable tools __________________ FLATHEAD ADDICT

05-02-2011, 03:23 PM	#32
Hoop Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 1,137	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong "No it doesn't. The lock is ductile enough to deform when pried out. And I have used that tool with the tit in the prying mode and also by hammering on the end. Works about the same. Most of the time I can get them out without breaking them. It's obvious that some of the posters have never torn apart a REALLY stuck engine." This is the "get a (progressively) bigger hammer" approach familiar to anyone who has had to cut the rods with a torch and break/cut the pistons out trying to salvage a block. "The lock is ductile enough to deform when pried out." The last valve removal I got into had the engine's pistons break loose when the fellows tried pushing and rocking the car. Something was still stuck, but with extra effort there were several "pops" and it turned over. I showed up and took a compression check to find most cylinders had no compression. To shorten the story, naturally a number of valves were stuck open, even though some had moved, but three horseshoe clips had popped out of the guides, and the guides were pushed up with the valves frozen in them. So, I'm sure they will deform. __________________ "Remember that when it comes to intelligence, half of all of us are below average."

05-02-2011, 05:02 PM	#35
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong "the 8ba valve has a flared stop and the tool wont fit round that"...actually, that is the tool for four bangers or something...the KD V-8 driver has a much wider lower part and is made to drive farther out near the edge of the flathead guide...there are two models, one a special for the ghastly '32-3 guides with integral shoulder. There are a bunch of replies on how that retainer is held in...by Ford's design, it sits in a recess that prevents it from moving properly unless the guide itself is moved down a little. Ford, of course, stuck to the fiction that moving the guide down was shop-manual simple... THe KD drivers, Bown 49's tool, and a bunch of other aftermarket tools were designed to just yank out the guide past its recess, deforming it into junk but saving time that cost far more than a new clip. All give a risk of ripping the tab off instead of moving the clip... The KD C-clamp tool was of couse meant to be used with the retainer yanker, which allowed the mighty C-clamp to then yank the guide without the lost motion of trying to lower the guide. The guide driver was a backup for those with bad luck on the retainers or not using the C-clamp. In my experience, the C-clamp is an invinceable puler, but getting the clip out so it can be used can be a touch more difficult than KD implied in the directions. FWIW, I consider the KD guide lever bar to be the best available in that type of tool.

05-02-2011, 08:05 PM	#36
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong Mart>>>I've already broken a cam by trying to turn it to raise a stuck valve.>>> I believe it, Mart! So I'd go a bit slower on trying to turn the crank and cam. First detension springs---at least the cam won't also be fighting spring resistance. Then liberally lube the assemblies with acetone-ATF or penetrant of choice. Let sit a day or so. Then try to turn crank as much as you dare. Re-lube and let it set awhile again. Then try to turn the crank again as much as you dare. Repeat as necessary till you've turned the crank 2 full revolutions to loosen all the stuck valves. Then go to sequential shims to get the super stuck-mushroom guides out --- slowly. 8^) Bruce>>>I consider the KD guide lever bar to be the best available in that type of tool.>>> I do too as long as it doesn't break off the bottom notches on the guides. If that happens, the homemade drift is probably one of the simplest & best tools to get the guide retainer out of its block recess. Jack E/NJ

05-02-2011, 08:36 PM	#37
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong And if bottom groove breaks and the end rips off of the keeper...KD is still the salvation using the wide radius driver, a hefty forging cupped to go around the valve and bear on the guide while you pound the %$@$%$%$# out of it. After that fails you can: 1. Drill the center til valve head falls off, continue with major hammering. 2. Go buy a Honda Civet and laugh at all this nonsense. 3. Find a cheaper, safer, less anti-social hobby like heroin.

05-03-2011, 01:01 PM	#39
bobH Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: so cal, placerville, vegas Posts: 1,394	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong Interesting discussion.... Like many things 'flathead', there are several ways to get the job done. For the really stuck ones, I still 'subscribe' to the method that I think was posted by Walt, many moons ago (& not posted here). Almost no tools needed... And, quick - maybe a couple hours ??? or less, for all 16. Last time I was involved, it went smooth. And, I'm nearly ready to tear another (really stuck one) apart, so I'll get to experience this 'fun' again soon.

05-03-2011, 02:01 PM	#40
Hoop Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 1,137	Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong "Almost no tools needed ... I'm nearly ready to tear another (really stuck one) apart, so I'll get to experience this 'fun' again soon. " __________________ "Remember that when it comes to intelligence, half of all of us are below average."