loose in the lifters

[GB SISSON]

I am using Bob Drake hollow adjustable lifters. They came adjusted out about about 1/4" beyond my application. The first two I pulled out of the package felt 'just right' as I cranked them in close to where I needed them. Then I got a really tight one. In my wood jawed cabinet shop vice it was all I could do to keep the lifter from turning along with the bolt. The lower it got the easier it turned. Down at the area I'm using it now also felt just right. Then a couple more good ones and then a way too easy one, in the end 3 loose ones. One I can turn by hand. I have read about this here and found some people put the loose ones in the vice end wise and crunch things a bit. Kinda scary to know how much without damage to lifter. From what I've seen it seems that perhaps the adjusting bolt part has normal threads and the interference part is in the lifter, otherwise the tight ones would become tighter. They all get looser as they run down. Could I just unscrew one and keep the first portions of thread untouched for good starting and maybe a few taps with a small ball peen hammer up higher? Maybe a slight pinch with vice grips? I wish I had an extra to practice with. What exactly are we doing when we compress one of these end-wise in the vice? Does that seem to work well? Sure wish there was room for a normal lock nut!

[Binx]

Whether it be spiking the threads with a punch or messing up the threads with a hammer, adjustables need minimum 60 in/lbs breakaway torque. That is at or in excess of 60 in/lbs before they begin to turn.

Lonnie

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by Binx

Whether it be spiking the threads with a punch or messing up the threads with a hammer, adjustables need minimum 60 in/lbs breakaway torque. That is at or in excess of 60 in/lbs before they begin to turn.

Lonnie

Thanks, Is that 5 ft lbs on my torque wrench?

[Binx]

Yes, but torque wrenches are usually inaccurate at their extreme lower and upper ranges. Best to get a 0-100 in/lb wrench.

Lonnie

[GB SISSON]

Being that the closest auto parts store is an hour round trip I decided to save a couple of bucks and make a tester out of some scrap. I think this should be accurate. I even put an outboard bearing to keep things square. The lifter in the photo is one of the tight ones. Turning the bolt with a wrench instills confidence that it won't unscrew in the engine. That being said, as you can see I have the flour sack at about 6" out and that's all this lifter will stand before the sack drops. Some of the loose ones can't take any flour sack at all. Sliding the sack out to 12" imparts quite a load. Are you sure the 60 in lbs is a good number? And is my conversion correct at 5 ft lbs? Lastly, is my apparatus in order? Engineers, armchair or otherwise please chime in. I'd like to continue my work later this afternoon, after I do some chores.... Thanks, GB

[Ronnie]

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Blue loctite would be in order as it is hand tool removable and won't back off on its own.

R

[GOSFAST]

Hi "GB", speaking strictly from a business standpoint here with having to stand 100% behind every build we deliver, I would give you this advice, "TOSS THEM NOW" or you may just spend the rest of your life working over them!!

This is just my take on this subject, those adjusters take a real pounding over time!! In all my years of dealing with the original "Johnsons" I've never had a single bad piece show up (new) or a single return on a build, ever!

It's NOT worth the risk, believe me!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Another "tip" for all, under no circumstances should anyone buy/use any lifters referred to as "Johnson-Style" tappets. I don't care where they are claimed to be mfd, I would NOT install a single one of these in any unit built here. On a side note, the overall "weight" of the original "Johnson's" in almost any street-build is a moot point, it has NO adverse affect if the unit is built correctly. We had them in a Louden (roundy-round) unit running constantly at/above 5000 RPM. Never missed a beat!

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Blue loctite would be in order as it is hand tool removable and won't back off on its own.

R

Let's just say I went this route.... (These lifters were the most expensive part of this 'overhaul', not rebuild). Would I clean the oil off that they come packed in and add some drops of locktite after I am happy with my adjustments, or do I have to coat the threads and reassemble the lifter and then work fast to adjust before the stuff sets?

[49fordv8f4]

Loctite 290 is a wicking Loctite for assembled fasteners. It will soak down into the threads and is removeable with hand tools like the 242 blue Loctite.
Mark

[Bored&Stroked]

I'm with Gary - if you're seeing that much of a variance on the adjusters on a brand new set, send them back. You might talk to Red's Headers about theirs - and let them know that you'll be testing each one to see that there is a proper interference fit. If the adjusters are not tight at your installed length, you'll have drama - it is dang near guaranteed.

[Mart]

The thread is in two parts with a groove in the middle. The thread is crushed slightly in a vise to create a pitch error between the top and bottom half of the thread. To be tight enough to be self locking you need plenty of both top and bottom of the thread in the nut part, which is, in this case, the lifter body. If you screw the top part all the way in, there is not enough of the lower part still engaged in the lifter to maintain the self locking feature.

I had this problem and ended up shortening the valves so the lifters would be in the sweet spot of the thread engagement. I also try to minimise turning the screws. the more you turn them, the more they loosen up.

In a nutshell: turn them as little as possible and try and keep them near the central part of the range.

Mart.

[GB SISSON]

Maybe tonight I will try one with loctite and see how much flour it takes to break it loose. Will I need to jack it up a bit and clean it with brake parts cleaner before running it down and applying the loctite? I may also look into 8n tractor lifters. Only if i can find nos though. Hot rodders say they are good, but way to heavy for anything but a stocker. Research also shows that the old johnsons had two sets of threads, high and low with 5/16" between them. With high lift cams they were extended way out and only engaged the top threads. Later they made 2 lengths. Ok, back to the lifter lab.....

[GB SISSON]

Well, two good replies while I was pecking on my keyboard! And they are nearly bottomed out. I can see almost 1/8" of bolt thread through the angled slots.

[Ronnie]

Either loctite will do the job.290 wicks in and 242 is applied before the adjustment.Make sure there is no oil present.I would let the loctite cure for a time before doing your test.

http://www.unitide.com.tw/Pic/Document/4_262-TDS.pdf

R

[GB SISSON]

Didn't try the loctite in case I decide to send them back. What I did do was test an old adjustable lifter I had found in an 8ba I took apart last spring. There was only one. This engine had come from a '51 truck and obviously hadn't been apart in a long while, so thinking 'original johnson'. Well I put it in my jig and it felt tight by hand. Upon placing the flour sack on the 12" mark, it did not drop at all. Tighter x 2 than all others.

[GB SISSON]

After dinner I went down to the shop and took a lifter apart. This was one of the three that were extremely loose. For some reason I had thought the gap between two separate threads was in the bore, but it's on the bolt. I decided to put the bolt in the vice with a copper bar to back up the threads and give it a squeeze endwise as suggested. I immediately noticed the added friction, but didn't seem enough yet. One more squeeze with my 175 lbs on the vice handle. I placed it in my fixture and cranked it way in where it will need to be. A bit tight and kind of scary so I backed it out and lubed it. Cranked in until it was same as my ford lifters which means about 2-3 threads showing on top. Hung the 5 lb weight and there it stayed right out straight, just like a johnson. With light pressure it drooped down about 10 degrees. Lifted 10 degrees over horizontal and it stayed. If you turn down a 1/4-28 bolt with a ratcheting box wrench and feel what 5 ft lbs feels like I think you will agree these will not back off in use. Now if I can get through all of them without breaking any..... Thanks so much for all the input and I will get back to it tomorrow after work.

[Mart]

Good work GB. That testing jig is great.

Actually seeing that pic of the bolt shows well why the tension goes off if screwed right in. I just remembered I didn't shorten the valves, I shortened the lifters, which is possible to do on the French ones because the top is pressed into the body and are able to be dismantled.

Mart.

[Tony, NY]

Maybe someone already said this. There must be a small difference between the 2 threads to give the adjuster a locking feature. When it protrudes thru the lifter, you are losing that locking feature.

[flatford8]

All this research is great !!!... but, when are we making bicuits with that flour ?!?!?!?!...Mark

[GB SISSON]

From what I gather, the lifter has a normal 1/4-28 thread and so does the bolt with it's necked down space. Compressing this bolt gets the two parts of the bolt out of phase, creating the needed friction. As I mentioned before, the components in my valve train require the lifter bolt to be quite low in it's adjustment, and yes there is about 1/8" or so which comes through the bottom. Although I have only altered 2 so far, I have not noticed a reduction in friction as they are run in. The flour sack in the last photo demonstrates this, particularly since this lifter's bolt could almost be turned by hand.