5W-30 oil...OK to use?

[d.]

question guys, I have 3 cases of 5W-30 in the garage from I car I no longer have.
Could I use this safely in my Model A? Maybe add a can of STP to each oil change?
The engine was rebuilt 20 years ago and run on 30W non-D up till now.
I would appreciate your input. thanks.

[Aok]

If it has been running non detergent I would drop and clean the pan and in the valve area before I switched

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree with Aok. How many miles have been put on in those 20 years? How often was the oil changed?
It would be interesting to see how the pan looks on the inside.

I'd consider 5-30 a little on the light side, but it should work OK. You could also use it up in your modern car.

[steve s]

One argument against using the lighter weight oil is that it will get by the rings, so you'll wind up burning more oil--just keep checking it. Once it gets up to operating temperature, its viscosity will be the same as SAE 30, which is what a lot of people use. Ford recommended 20 for winter and 40 or summer usage.

Remember, that by adding STP or other additives you are diluting or displacing the manufacturer's antioxidants and other additives and real lubricants designed for the purpose.

Steve

[Rowdy]

Lucas, maybe. I hightly doubt I would use STP, but then again I find very little use for it anyway. Rod

[Mitch//pa]

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Why put something in that you feel you have to doctor with an additive to thicken it up. Take the 3 cases and give them to a friend or your local garage, or return it to where you purchased them tell them you lost the receipt...
if someone brought them to me i would hook them up with some future favors in repairs

[Craig Lewis]

Just my opinion, but I would continue with the original non detergent oil if you can find it.

Plan B clean out the pan and valve chamber very well first.

That thin 5/30 detergent will wash the internals & suspend alot of sediment & gritty carbon deposits in the oil...this is pumped into the valve chamber and flows down the lube tubes directly into your main saddles and could grind up the bearings and crank pretty bad.

With a descent engine rebuild running $3000 and up, changing to modern car oil could be the worst money you ever saved.

[steve s]

My understanding is that experiments have shown that detergent oil's ability to re-suspend sludge is a myth--a VERY long standing myth that everyone knows to be true. Does anyone on the Barn have actual data (not just something they've heard over and over)?

Steve

[P.S.]

I bought a 31 with a motor that still has original babbit, has only had the valves done but not totally rebuilt. I figured, it will probably need to be rebuilt soon anyway, so with nothing to lose, have been running modern 10-40 and 20-50 Valvoline detergent type oil in it.

Have put thousands of miles on it since. All that has happened is the motor has actually continued to run better and better. Have been failthful with oil changes every 500 miles.

I do notice that when running the 20-50 oil, the rear main leaks more. When running the 10-40, the car rarely leaks more than a drop or two after driving it. Have never tried an oil as light as you propose.

[Tom Wesenberg]

When I was in El Paso in the Army I bought a 1952 Studebaker Land Cruiser that must have been using non-detergent oil. When I removed the valve covers I could barely see the rocker arms and shaft. I dug out all the sludge I could reach using a popcycle stick, and started using detergent oil. Once a month I'd remove a cover to see how it looked. The detergent oil was slowly getting the engine cleaned up, and everything was working great.

[Roadster Rich]

I recently posted about my engine that I opened up for the first time since 1966. Every oil change from 66 to about three years ago, was with 30 wt. non-detergent oil. For two latest oil changes I used Mobil 1 10w40 (I think it was labelled high mileage). Although the engine probably only had about 30,000 miles on it in 46 years, there was almost no sludge. The valve chamber was very clean. There are many pictures in that post. I don't believe that the use of non-detergent means you have a lot of sludge. More like abuse and not changing oil probably would be the culprit. I will continue to use Mobil 1 10w40 for as long as I am around.

[Greg out west]

Hey Mr. "D"



I'ed clean out the motor & start over with new Straight weight oil...Here in So. Calif it doesn't get that cold so I use 40W...I'am thinking some of the multi-weight oil's are too thin for a non-pressure engine like the A



I want a high film strenght at the brg's...I run multi weight in my modern car...I even asked the Motorman,,,on KABC Radio here in So. Cal....he said if it was his car, he'd run straight 30 or 40W....He was a consultant to Quarker state,,so he ought to know..!!



You can tune in on the internet to listen to his show...It's on every Sunday 8 to 10 am PST...Go to KABC.com listen live "Leon Kaplan"



Greg out West

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Greg out west

Hey Mr. "D"



I'ed clean out the motor & start over with new Straight weight oil...Here in So. Calif it doesn't get that cold so I use 40W...I'am thinking some of the multi-weight oil's are too thin for a non-pressure engine like the A



I want a high film strenght at the brg's...I run multi weight in my modern car...I even asked the Motorman,,,on KABC Radio here in So. Cal....he said if it was his car, he'd run straight 30 or 40W....He was a consultant to Quarker state,,so he ought to know..!!



You can tune in on the internet to listen to his show...It's on every Sunday 8 to 10 am PST...Go to KABC.com listen live "Leon Kaplan"



Greg out West

Greg,

I have to ask, how is 10W40 or 5W30 or even 0W40 any thinner than 40W at operating temperature?

And being 40W is not too thin at operating temperature, obviously that viscosity is all that is required so at what point is 0w40,5w40,10w40 too thin being it is never thinner than 40W is hot.

I'm not a consultant to Quakerstate, but I played one on TV once...

[msmaron]

i use 5w/20 and have no problems, just let it warm up a bit and good to go!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by steve s

My understanding is that experiments have shown that detergent oil's ability to re-suspend sludge is a myth--a VERY long standing myth that everyone knows to be true. Does anyone on the Barn have actual data (not just something they've heard over and over)?

Steve

This is from engine builder magazine,

"When "detergent oils" first appeared, everyone’s engine repair business increased. Tired, worn out engines, full of sludge deposits because they had always been serviced with non-detergent oils, were ill advisedly transfused with detergent oil, which promptly attacked the sludge deposits. Engine bearing surfaces were flooded with oil containing a high concentration of newly suspended sludge particles. And during the phase-in of detergent engine oils, a number of chemical elixirs for "engine oil desludging" appeared. With current engines, we often encounter similar failures when engines are accidentally overfilled and loosen normally benign engine deposits. Unless you’re very young or your principal residence is a cave, none of this should be news."

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by msmaron

i use 5w/20 and have no problems, just let it warm up a bit and good to go!

Wow 5/20 now that might be kinda thin for my tastes. I only ran that in one modern engine and it was because it called for it. Actually later I switched to 0w20.


I'd say 0w30 or 0w40 is perfect for the "A".

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

This is from engine builder magazine,

"When "detergent oils" first appeared, everyone’s engine repair business increased. Tired, worn out engines, full of sludge deposits because they had always been serviced with non-detergent oils, were ill advisedly transfused with detergent oil, which promptly attacked the sludge deposits. Engine bearing surfaces were flooded with oil containing a high concentration of newly suspended sludge particles. And during the phase-in of detergent engine oils, a number of chemical elixirs for "engine oil desludging" appeared. With current engines, we often encounter similar failures when engines are accidentally overfilled and loosen normally benign engine deposits. Unless you’re very young or your principal residence is a cave, none of this should be news."

I don't know Mike, with all due respect (and that is a lot due..) I don't know if I trust that article. Just because it is in a magazine doesn't make it true, it also notes companies making stuff to try and sell to fix a problem. Perhaps that problem never even existed, you know kind of like oil additives today that probably cause more harm than good.

[hotrodderhaag]

I use that brad penn mean green 10-40 racing oil. It's what very engine shop recommends for these old engines . We use it in all our antique tractors and cars

[PetesPonies]

Personally, I would never use 0 or 5 weight oil in an engine that has clearances not designed for such oil. That's just my opinion and not only with an A engine.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

Personally, I would never use 0 or 5 weight oil in an engine that has clearances not designed for such oil. That's just my opinion and not only with an A engine.

Once again, 0W30 is the same exact weight in a hot engine as 10w30 and 30SAE.

0W30 is like running *closer* to 30SAE when the engine is cold and running 30SAE when its hot where 30SAE is like jello when cold. 0W30 is simply more consistent than 30SAE.

Not sure why no one can quite grasp that.

[jkeesey]

Its the 0 mr.tube. its hard to believe there's anything good going to an engine specced at 20 or 30 and then you put in 0. It may be 30 when hot but its 0 cold.

[Purdy Swoft]

Mr Tube, I Just can't grasp why you have such ideas. Such a nice guy too!! Insert smiley face.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

This is from engine builder magazine,

"When "detergent oils" first appeared, everyone’s engine repair business increased. Tired, worn out engines, full of sludge deposits because they had always been serviced with non-detergent oils, were ill advisedly transfused with detergent oil, which promptly attacked the sludge deposits. Engine bearing surfaces were flooded with oil containing a high concentration of newly suspended sludge particles. And during the phase-in of detergent engine oils, a number of chemical elixirs for "engine oil desludging" appeared. With current engines, we often encounter similar failures when engines are accidentally overfilled and loosen normally benign engine deposits. Unless you’re very young or your principal residence is a cave, none of this should be news."

On the other hand, there's this http://www.rockymountainmodelaclub.o...C_Mar_2012.pdf:

Lack of Sludge Removal
The value of detergent additives not present in "Henry’s Oil" is elimination of sludge. Those of us who can remember the 1950’s can remember pulling the oil pan, and seeing the thick layer (sometimes as much as ½ inch) of sludge coating the bottom of the pan. Modern oils have reduced this to a minimum by adding "detergents" , a term coined in the 1950’s to sell the oil. Detergents are not soap, a myth caused by equating the apparent cleaning of the engine to clothes being cleaned by detergent soap. Another myth complains that the modern oils with the "detergent" additive will stir up any residual sludge in the engine and clog oil passages and cause engine damage. In fact, motor oil additives called detergents neutralize acids and clean engines, but are incapable of removal of sludge and varnish. Detergents are more like solvents than wire brushes. Dispersants and Detergents keep products of combustion, and other particulates suspended so that they do not block passages or lodge in cavities. To use an oil which does not have detergent it is necessary to use an oil with the API label SA or SB oil, if you can find it. However, if you use a non detergent oil you must be prepared to change oil more frequently, clean the oil pan monthly 11, and drop the pan and clean the engine at least once a year.

Some old timer Model A owners cling to the myth that "detergent" oil will clog your engine’s oil passages and damage your engine. However, since the "detergent" in fact cannot do this, it is recommended that modern oils with the capability of keeping combustion products suspended combined with frequent oil changes is recommended.

Whom to believe?
Steve

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by steve s

whom to believe?

Exactly!!!

[PetesPonies]

Well having been an auto instructor for 30 years and still in the profession . . . . I have my learning, my experiences and thus my opinions that I have developed and taught over the years.

[donQ]

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I agree with the folks that suggest that if you use a multi vis oil, probably 10-40 is a good way to go. I use a model A doodlebug to plow my driveway in the winter and the vehicle starts much easier with the multi vis. I had some concerns about loosening the 50 or so years of sludge that may have built up before I started using the detergent multi vis. My transition plan was to at first use 1 qt 10-40 and the rest non detergent 30 W. The next oil change it went to 2 qt 10-40. I stayed there for a couple of oil changes and gradually ran all 10-40. This has worked for me for the last 15 years. Donq

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Once again, 0W30 is the same exact weight in a hot engine as 10w30 and 30SAE.

0W30 is like running *closer* to 30SAE when the engine is cold and running 30SAE when its hot where 30SAE is like jello when cold. 0W30 is simply more consistent than 30SAE.

Not sure why no one can quite grasp that.

You are correct, and most people THINK they know the oil rating details! They don't!!!!!

I run 10W-40 - it's hot over here, and it's an oil easily available at a good price, with lots of ZDDP. Nothing Wrong with 0W-30 though.


The 0 in 0W anything doesn't mean you have "thin" oil at all, at any temp.

30 weight behaves like 30 weight oil. Thick as hell when cold, "thin" when hot. When it is cold, it is outside the designed operating parameters of the engine.

0W-30 is very different. the W is NOT for weight, it's for Winter.

0W-30 is like a 0 weight oil would behave at 40 degrees C - it's far thinner than 30 weight WOULD BE AT THE SAME TEMPERATURE, and is like a 30 weight oil would behave at 100C (water boiling).

What this means is 0W-30 actually stays CLOSER to the hot viscosity of 30 weight at temperatures from cold through to hot. So, the oil is CLOSER to the designed operating parameters of the engine. the 30 weight thickens up FAR more as it gets cooler.

Multiweight oils are FAR superior for cooler oil temperature operation, as the viscosity varies less.


(these numbers below aren't actual figures from a specific oil brand or type, but they are close enough for the purposes ofthis illustration. Get you own numbers if you are pedantic )

30 weight may have a viscosity of 20 cSt at 100C. So will 0W-30. That's where the 30 rating come from.

At 0C, 30 weight may have a viscosity of 100 cSt. At the same temp, 0W-30 will have a viscosity of maybe 50 cSt.

So when the oil is cold, straight 30 weight is maybe 5 TIMES the thickness of 30 weight at operating temperature - it's slow to pump up to the valve chamber and slow to run back down.

When the 0W-30 is cold, it's probably under 3 times the thickness of normal operating temp oil, so actually pumps up and runs down faster to your bearings. Viscosity and shear strength is always the same or higher than 30 weight is at operating temperature.

Hopefully this shows there is nothing "thin" about 0W-30

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by jkeesey

Its the 0 mr.tube. its hard to believe there's anything good going to an engine specced at 20 or 30 and then you put in 0. It may be 30 when hot but its 0 cold.

Good example.

It is NOT 0 weight when cold. It's as thick as 0 weight would be at 40C. This is the common misconception. When cold it is STILL thicker than hot 30 weight, so is more suited to something "designed" for 30 weight oil.

It's thinner than COLD 30 weight, so flow faster to where it needs to go.

[ursus]

Allenw make a good point! On a few occasions I have started the A at around 0 degrees Fahrenheit with 30-weight in the crankcase. About 15 seconds after starting there was a soft clatter in the bottom end, so I shut off the engine, checked the oil, and found it at the bottom of the dipstick. I soon discovered that the oil wasn't really low, it was because at that low temperature the 30-weight oil initially pumped upward was so thick it hadn't time to flow back down to the crankcase. The clatter sound was coming from a starved oil pump. Remember that most of the wear occurs on start-up when the engine is cold. There is a reason that multi-weight oils were developed.

[MrTube]

I'm glad to see some agree with me. Anyone who has ever watched an oil PSI peg on startup at 80+PSI idling should understand why 0W30 is beneficial to any and every engine.

Try to pour a quart of 10w30 oil into an engine when the bottle has been outside on a 0F day and tell me you want your engine running on that even for a few minutes. Then try to pour a bottle of 0w30 and you will immediiately understand.

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Anyone who has ever watched an oil PSI peg on startup at 80+PSI idling should understand why 0W30 is beneficial to any and every engine.

Yep, seen that!

People will still have trouble getting this though - It's not because people are dim, it's because it's badly explained and not immediately obvious compared to how it looks:

30 weight goes from:
this thick (cold)<........................................... .......>to this thin(hot)

0W-30 goes from:
..............................this thick (cold)<....................>to this thin(hot)

Notice: 0W-30 does NOT get thicker as it warms up, which is something VERY commonly thought (as this is what the numbers indicate on initial impression).

[Allanw]

Sorry - I edited my posts - the winter temp (the "W") is usually actually measured at 40C under SAE kinematic tests, not 0C. however, the difference actually increases further as the tempurture drops to 0C anyway :-)

[Greg out west]

Dear Tube Man



I think you got the wrong idea what I was referring too about the single weight oil in the A Motor...I use what it call's for in my modern car...


I woundn't use 30 or 40 in "COLD" weather,,,as like one of the guy's said,,,it too thick & won't flow correctly to the Brg's...What I'am talking about is the abilitily for a single weight to carry a higher flim strenght when cold on say a 75 degree day



How much clearance are most guy's running at the center cam Brg ? Mine is right at the limit of .004... The muli-weight will probably bypass the brg with more wear... I agree with what Pete said about use the correct oil for what ever engine...



BTW,,,I don't dump out good oil at 500 mile's like Ford called for 80+ year's ago...Oil's have advanced so much over the year's that getting 2 to 300 K out of a engine is more normal than way back...



I run a oil filter, air filter, PCV & thermostat..All the stuff modern car's use Mine is a B motor so there is alittle pressure,,,



I alway's woundered as a kid,,how a Model T motor could run and it didn't even have a oil pump...I'll be waiting for your answer ??


Take care my young Friend


Greg out West

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Greg out west

Dear Tube Man



I think you got the wrong idea what I was referring too about the single weight oil in the A Motor...I use what it call's for in my modern car...


I woundn't use 30 or 40 in "COLD" weather,,,as like one of the guy's said,,,it too thick & won't flow correctly to the Brg's...What I'am talking about is the abilitily for a single weight to carry a higher flim strenght when cold on say a 75 degree day



How much clearance are most guy's running at the center cam Brg ? Mine is right at the limit of .004... The muli-weight will probably bypass the brg with more wear... I agree with what Pete said about use the correct oil for what ever engine...



BTW,,,I don't dump out good oil at 500 mile's like Ford called for 80+ year's ago...Oil's have advanced so much over the year's that getting 2 to 300 K out of a engine is more normal than way back...



I run a oil filter, air filter, PCV & thermostat..All the stuff modern car's use Mine is a B motor so there is alittle pressure,,,



I alway's woundered as a kid,,how a Model T motor could run and it didn't even have a oil pump...I'll be waiting for your answer ??


Take care my young Friend


Greg out West

Hi Greg,

I honestly have no idea what the difference between the film strength of 30 single weight and say 0W30 Mobil 1 or Royal Purple. I will admit that.

I'm going to be honest and say my assumption would be to trust the Mobil 1 or Royal Purple more than the single weight lawn mower oil which is essentially the only kind of single weight you can find anymore. That said I even use Mobil 1 in my lawn mower.

Perhaps Allan has an answer?

[Patrick L.]

The concept of multi-weight oil is confusing because some people really don't know about these oils [even though they think they do]or because of the way this concept is explained. I did my college papers [I can't spell thesis] on these oils back in the dark ages.

An easy way to think of it is, 5W-30 , this oil flows like 5 weight in cold weather but has [and retains] film strength of a 30 weight. These oils don't thicken as they warm, its just an easy way for some to explain it.

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

The concept of multi-weight oil is confusing because some people really don't know about these oils [even though they think they do]or because of the way this concept is explained. I did my college papers [I can't spell thesis] on these oils back in the dark ages.

An easy way to think of it is, 5W-30 , this oil flows like 5 weight in cold weather but has [and retains] film strength of a 30 weight. These oils don't thicken as they warm, its just an easy way for some to explain it.

You understand it very well. I can tell. It's the explaining of it that confuses people, and it's 100% understandable.

I'm sure you can see exactly what I'm saying, as you are already there. a VERY VERY VERY large majority of people (that includes mechanics too) don't understand it, even though they think they do. It IS confusing....

[Allanw]

I'm absolutely not picking on "greg out West" here - he was brave enough to answer, but is a perfect example of the common misconception that i bet the majority on this board beleive. I had to have it explained to me, and I get it now, but it isn't an easy thing to grasp, as it's fundementally flawed if you take it at it's logical face value.

Originally Posted by MrTube

Hi Greg,
Perhaps Allan has an answer?

Yeah... I posted it, but it's probably not clear enough - I tend to use too many words .

The concept may still be confusing. read each point carefully, 1 at a time:


1) 30 weight oil at 100C (212F) (operating temperature) has a certain viscosity. lets use 10cSt (a quite typical figure)


2) 0W-30 oil at 100C (212F) has the same viscosity as above (within the SAE limits anyway). that's where the 30 rating come from comes from. again, 10cSt viscosity.


3) 0W-30 does NOT (note NOT) get a 0 weight oil rating when cold! It is THICKER cold, than a 30weight is hot.

4)BOTH these oils get thinner as they get hotter NOT the other way around





Here is the important part:

5)read point 1 and 2 again!> 1) 30 weight oil at 100C (212F) is 10cSt 2) so is 0W-30. The same viscosity.

6)at 40C, they are BOTH thicker than when hot. BOTH types of oil thicken when cooling. The 30 weight thickens more though.

Got that?



Basing film strength on viscosity:

BOTH 30 weight and 0W-30 have a higher film strength when cold than hot. BOTH are thinnest at operating temperature than cold.


SO, the multiviscosity is NOT going to bypass that bearing mentioned above, as it IS NOT EVER THINNER than the 30 weight oil is when the 30 weight is at operating temperature.

The difference:

30 weight is TOO THICK when cold to circulate well.

0W-30 will circulate BETTER when cold, but is NOT thinner than hot 30 weight.

there is NO reduction in film strength, as the film strength is at the lowest point at operating temperature (100C, 212F).

[Allanw]

Ooooh!





In this table:

_______________Hot_________Cold
30 weight_____ 9cSt_________ 85cSt
0 Weight______ 3cSt_________ 29cSt
0W-30________9cSt__________29cSt

the 0W-30 has the best of both worlds. It's not too thick when cold, and not too thin when hot.

The 30 weight is too thick when cold, and the 0 weight is too thin when hot. The multi viscosity uses the BEST viscosity properties of the two rating.

Does that help???

[BarracudaBoy]

http://www.rockymountainmodelaclub.o...C_Mar_2012.pdf

Some more info if Allanw hasn't filled up your brain yet!

[Allanw]

That PDF is quite helpfull..



although... if you want to fill your head just a touch more...

they refer to straight weight oils as 20W, 30W and 40W when they actually mean 30 Weight in a number of places. The W is for Winter, not for weight.

You can buy 20W oil and 20 Weight oil. 20W oil will thin out like buggery as it heats up and be too thin at operating temperature, as it's rated for "20" SAE at 40C, where 20 weight oil is rated as a 20 weight oil at 100C.

Just to be picky


This seems pretty quiet for an oil discussion.

[40 Deluxe]

Thank you, Allanw and others, for sharing good solid data on the superiority of multi-viscosity and high "detergent' oils. It's always good to examine why we believe what we do and then change that belief when/if it fails to conform to proven facts!
Why cling to 1920's and '30's thinking and ignore all the advancements in oil technology?
It'd be interesting if someone who is switching from non-detergent to a detergent oil would send an oil sample to a lab at the first oil change to see what is really going on, rather than assume this or that.
This may be an apples to oranges comparison, but I drag race a '67 Cougar with a 289 engine. I run 5W-50 synthetic oil with a completely stock oil pump, do a 7,000 RPM burnout, shift at about 7400 RPM and cross the finish line around 6400 RPM. Granted, the burnout is only about 6 or 7 seconds and the run is just less than 13 seconds, but if the track is not too busy, I make repeated back-to-back runs so the oil gets plenty warm! So thick oil and high pressure is not needed
Try this: Get a 1/8" pipe nipple 3" long and adapters to put a 3/4" coupling on one end. Now put the pipe and a cup of 30W oil in your freezer overnight (or outside if you live in the upper midwest!). Then pour the oil into the top of the pipe and see how long it is before the oil runs out the bottom of the pipe. Then at least double the time, to allow for how long it will take for the oil to be pumped up from the pan and flow to the ends of the valve chamber to get to the oil tubes.

[Benson]

Originally Posted by BarracudaBoy

http://www.rockymountainmodelaclub.o...C_Mar_2012.pdf

Some more info if Allanw hasn't filled up your brain yet!

Nice article. One correction that I notice is high lighted below:

THE USE OF MODERN OILS IN THE MODEL A FORD
The following information in this article was gleaned from the Model “A” News publication of an article written by Joseph Valentine
of the Model A Restorers Club article
and other sources. The Model “A” News paper points out that there are three choices for motor oil.

There are Mineral based detergent (both straight weight and multi-grade), non-detergent oils, and new
synthetic oils. As Wayne Russert points out there was only non-detergent, straight mineral oil
with no additives available in 1928 through 1931 for the Ford Model A.

Therefore, Ford Motor
Company at that time, recommended the use of 20W oil in the summer, changing the oil to 40W
in the winter. Notice that the old timers myth … “it is best to use 30W” was not advised by
Ford. The purpose of an engine oil, as pointed out by our “oily” expert Don Nelson, is to
Lubricate, Prevent Wear, Prevent Corrosion, and Cool the engine (actually the engine cooling
provided by the lubricant in the engine is not significant).

[Patrick L.]

Therefore, Ford Motor
Company at that time, recommended the use of 20W oil in the summer, changing the oil to 40W
in the winter. end quote,
Really ?


Ford. The purpose of an engine oil, as pointed out by our “oily” expert Don Nelson, is to
Lubricate, Prevent Wear, Prevent Corrosion, and Cool the engine (actually the engine cooling
provided by the lubricant in the engine is not significant). end quote.

Actually oil cooling in some engines is necessary.

[40 Deluxe]

Actually, oil does help cool an engine. Otherwise, why and how does it get so hot?! Drive your A (or any car) 20-30 miles, then immediately drain the oil and put your hand in it. Is it warm?
Some engines have nozzles in the oil galley to spray oil on the undersides of the pistons for cooling. And many engines have oil coolers, to carry away engine heat.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Actually, oil does help cool an engine. Otherwise, why and how does it get so hot?! Drive your A (or any car) 20-30 miles, then immediately drain the oil and put your hand in it. Is it warm?
Some engines have nozzles in the oil galley to spray oil on the undersides of the pistons for cooling. And many engines have oil coolers, to carry away engine heat.

While your statement is true about some engines, the model "A" engine may only benefit from this for a short time until the oil is saturated with heat. The oil in the "A" engine has no where to transfer heat to so once its up to temp, thats it.

[PetesPonies]

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Oil :
lubricates an engine- round molecules role easily over each other
cleans an engine-takes debris away
cools an engine-transfer heat from hottest parts to coolest areas
seals piston rings-fills the microscopic clearances/holes
stops corrosion-depends on the types of metal present
keeps metal parts from touching each other-keeps a film for clearance between parts

[steve s]

Originally Posted by MrTube

While your statement is true about some engines, the model "A" engine may only benefit from this for a short time until the oil is saturated with heat. The oil in the "A" engine has no where to transfer heat to so once its up to temp, thats it.

I don't understand this.

I wonder what saturated with heat means? Stuff can always get hotter, until it reaches the molecular decomposition temperature.

Also, I don't understand how anything can ever have no where to transfer heat to. If nothing else, the engine, including the oil pan, is always radiating and conducting heat to the atmosphere.

Perhaps "saturated with heat" refers to the oil temperature reaching a steady state, in which the oil is conducting/radiating heat away at the same rate as it is gaining new heat from contact with the hotter innards.

Steve

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by steve s

I don't understand this.

I wonder what saturated with heat means? Stuff can always get hotter, until it reaches the molecular decomposition temperature.

Also, I don't understand how anything can ever have no where to transfer heat to. If nothing else, the engine, including the oil pan, is always radiating and conducting heat to the atmosphere.

Perhaps "saturated with heat" refers to the oil temperature reaching a steady state, in which the oil is conducting/radiating heat away at the same rate as it is gaining new heat from contact with the hotter innards.

Steve

Hi Steve, yea, thats what I should have said. I worded it wrong.
I guess saturated would have been more appropriate for a liquid just below its boiling point?

I meant the oil is at the same temperature as the engine it self. I guess you do have a point in that the oil pan does transfer heat, I was thinking more along the lines of an oil to water cooler in regards to getting rid of the heat. In my mind, compared to that the oil pan does very little especially on a hot summer day.

[steven a]

I would not run a multi wt. oil in a model a unless your running a thermostat . The viscosity dose not change untill the engine reaches 180 . most a's run at 160 . So your oil will be too thin . Stp is an oil thickner , one can added to 4 will change it 10 points . It will change 30 wt . into a 40 wt. Stp is about 500 wt. . It's great in transmissions and rear alxes. I also prefer it in sterring boxes . I never used it in my engines . For me straight 30 wt Rotella can't be beat .

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by steven a

I would not run a multi wt. oil in a model a unless your running a thermostat . The viscosity dose not change untill the engine reaches 180 . most a's run at 160 . So your oil will be too thin . Stp is an oil thickner , one can added to 4 will change it 10 points . It will change 30 wt . into a 40 wt. Stp is about 500 wt. . It's great in transmissions and rear alxes. I also prefer it in sterring boxes . I never used it in my engines . For me straight 30 wt Rotella can't be beat .

Hold on while I bang my head on the wall.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by steven a

I would not run a multi wt. oil in a model a unless your running a thermostat . The viscosity dose not change untill the engine reaches 180 . most a's run at 160 . So your oil will be too thin . Stp is an oil thickner , one can added to 4 will change it 10 points . It will change 30 wt . into a 40 wt. Stp is about 500 wt. . It's great in transmissions and rear alxes. I also prefer it in sterring boxes . I never used it in my engines . For me straight 30 wt Rotella can't be beat .

I don't understand the part I bolded. The warmer the oil (or almost anything) gets, the more fluid it becomes. Running at 160 means the oil will be more viscous than at 180--perhaps even more viscous than a higher SAE viscosity oil will be at 180.

The multiviscosity additive offsets the thinning effect to some extent by thermal uncoiling of very long polymeric additive molecules. Do you have a reference or source reporting that this occurs only above 160?

Fortunately, the Model A is a very forgiving car, so we can successfully use a great variety of oiling strategies--and argue endlessly over which is best.

In any event, I'm a great fan of thermostats, which is a whole other issue. However, I'm leery of STP; not everything that is sticky and thick is a good lubricant under internal combustion engine conditions, and there is no doubt that adding STP does displace molecules that are proven good lubricants. But, again, the Model A is very forgiving.

Steve

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by steve s

I don't understand the part I bolded. The warmer the oil (or almost anything) gets, the more fluid it becomes. Running at 160 means the oil will be more viscous than at 180--perhaps even more viscous than a higher SAE viscosity oil will be at 180.

The multiviscosity additive offsets the thinning effect to some extent by thermal uncoiling of very long polymeric additive molecules. Do you have a reference or source reporting that this occurs only above 160?

Fortunately, the Model A is a very forgiving car, so we can successfully use a great variety of oiling strategies--and argue endlessly over which is best.

Steve

And this is why Steve is 'The Man'
And I mean that.

[Bruce Adams]

Originally Posted by Benson

Nice article. One correction that I notice is high lighted below:

THE USE OF MODERN OILS IN THE MODEL A FORD
The following information in this article was gleaned from the Model “A” News publication of an article written by Joseph Valentine
of the Model A Restorers Club article
and other sources. The Model “A” News paper points out that there are three choices for motor oil.

There are Mineral based detergent (both straight weight and multi-grade), non-detergent oils, and new
synthetic oils. As Wayne Russert points out there was only non-detergent, straight mineral oil
with no additives available in 1928 through 1931 for the Ford Model A.

Therefore, Ford Motor
Company at that time, recommended the use of 20W oil in the summer, changing the oil to 40W
in the winter. Notice that the old timers myth … “it is best to use 30W” was not advised by
Ford. The purpose of an engine oil, as pointed out by our “oily” expert Don Nelson, is to
Lubricate, Prevent Wear, Prevent Corrosion, and Cool the engine (actually the engine cooling
provided by the lubricant in the engine is not significant).

PAGE 14 of my owners Manual, "Model A Instruction Book" recommends "...viscosity No 40 ...for summer use. ... for winter use oil having the specifications of S A E No 20 should be used."

[Benson]

Originally Posted by Bruce Adams

PAGE 14 of my owners Manual, "Model A Instruction Book" recommends "...viscosity No 40 ...for summer use. ... for winter use oil having the specifications of S A E No 20 should be used."

My point exactly.

Oil article states that Ford said to use 40 oil in winter and 20 oil in summer.

Just backwards From the correct usage which is:
40 for Summer
20 for Winter

I guess I should have made it more clear that the text in the oil article is just backwards from the truth.

Some newbie might read that and run the wrong oil in his engine.

Of course he will figure out that something is wrong the first time he tries to start it with 40 weight oil in minus 30 degree weather!

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by steven a

I would not run a multi wt. oil in a model a unless your running a thermostat . The viscosity dose not change untill the engine reaches 180 . most a's run at 160 . So your oil will be too thin .

WRONG.


Take note:

OIL THINS AS IT GETS HOT.
It does NOT get thicker as it gets hot. Even multiviscosity.

Go re-read the thread again. PLEASE.

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by steven a

The viscosity dose not change untill the engine reaches 180 . most a's run at 160

Also:

The viscosity doesn't suddenly change at 180, it is a relatively linear change between the 40C point and the 100C point.

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by steve s

Fortunately, the Model A is a very forgiving car, so we can successfully use a great variety of oiling strategies--and argue endlessly over which is best.

That is very true, and I really don't care what anybody runs.

The issue I have, is that most people are basing decisions on mis-information.

I personally run 10W-40 in our A, as a year-round oil suitable to my climate. It's not going to work for everyone.

My oil still gets thinner as it gets hot - just like everyone elses.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by steve s
Fortunately, the Model A is a very forgiving car, so we can successfully use a great variety of oiling strategies--and argue endlessly over which is best.

Any oil as long as it is designed for automobiles (not baby oil) has worked, will work and will continue to work well in a Model A period, exclamation point.

Where is that beating of a dead horse graphic.

[MrTube]

I wonder how long the "A" could run under heavy load on pure lard for without any signs of damage.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Once again, 0W30 is the same exact weight in a hot engine as 10w30 and 30SAE.

0W30 is like running *closer* to 30SAE when the engine is cold and running 30SAE when its hot where 30SAE is like jello when cold. 0W30 is simply more consistent than 30SAE.

Not sure why no one can quite grasp that.

Mr. Tube, I have drained hot 10-30, and 30 wt. out of our own engines hundreds of times, even Model T's, and A's in other Guys engines, and I have never seen Hot 10-30 wt. come out any way but like P. water. Way, Way, Way different then the thicker 30 Wt.

You can get by with all most anything, if it is full on the stick, or pet-cock.

Thin oil just does not have the best cushion for bearings, and especially, piston, to wall surface.

I didn't read this out of a book, this is personal experience,.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Mr. Tube, I have drained hot 10-30, and 30 wt. out of our own engines hundreds of times, even Model T's, and A's in other Guys engines, and I have never seen Hot 10-30 wt. come out any way but like P. water. Way, Way, Way different then the thicker 30 Wt.

You can get by with all most anything, if it is full on the stick, or pet-cock.

Thin oil just does not have the best cushion for bearings, and especially, piston, to wall surface.

I didn't read this out of a book, this is personal experience,.

Well Kohnke, the only thing I can assume is that oil you drained was quite a bit cooler than 212F other wise according to standards they would have been identical.

I feel I am in no position to question you but I can only go by what I read.

[Greg out west]

Hey Kohnke



Yes,,, you hit the nail on the head... also doesn't all muilt weight start out as 30 w ?.


Greg out West

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

[QUOTE=MrTube;578467]Well Kohnke, the only thing I can assume is that oil you drained was quite a bit cooler than 212F other wise according to standards they would have been identical.

I feel I am in no position to question you but I can only go by what I read.[/Quote)



Mr. Tube,This has always been a problem with some things Debated.

Doing, and experience, or articles, and I Heard.


Thats the way I see it also, GREG.

[Patrick L.]

And it goes on, as it probably will until I'm old and grey. Well, older and grey-er.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

And it goes on, as it probably will until I'm old and grey. Well, older and grey-er.

Come on guys, lets see if we can get 100 pages on this thread.

[Allanw]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Mr. Tube, I have drained hot 10-30, and 30 wt. out of our own engines hundreds of times, even Model T's, and A's in other Guys engines, and I have never seen Hot 10-30 wt. come out any way but like P. water. Way, Way, Way different then the thicker 30 Wt.

You can get by with all most anything, if it is full on the stick, or pet-cock.

Thin oil just does not have the best cushion for bearings, and especially, piston, to wall surface.

I didn't read this out of a book, this is personal experience,.

You should try reading what has been written too.

Like I said earlier - even mechanics often don't know how it works - another perfect example.

SAE developed the standard to rate the oils, and if they are rated 30 weight at operating temperature, they will be of roughly the same viscosity. That is the ENTIRE point of the SAE rating. As the multi weight cools, it doesn't thicken as much as the straight weight does (THIS IS A GOOD THING!). If your oil has cooled down, it will be thicker. Thicker oil isn't better. the correct viscosity is all that is required, and for Summer driving, ford recommended 40 weight. 40 weight when cold, is about 10 TIMES thicker than when it's hot. the 10W-40 I use is only about 2x thicker when cold - it's actually FAR closer to the correct running viscosity.

by your own logic, 30 weight isn't good for your engine, because it actually thins MORE from cold to hot. If you knew how it worked, you'd know this. BOTH oils will be the same viscosity at 100C - the correct viscosity.

Here is some reading for those who haven't managed to read this thread, but reply anyway:

http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/foru...-oil-viscosity

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-...-Viscosity.pdf

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/kb.php?mode=article&k=65

http://www.subaru-impreza.org/forum/...viscosity.html

http://www.astraownersclub.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=40002

If people want to read all that, then reply with more posts making themselves look stupid, I really don't care, but it's not a good idea to come on here telling people FALSE information and misleading them into believing something that is wrong.

What I have posted is not my opinion, it is fact. It is the system that the numbers on the oil bottle are rated by. If they are not rated under this system, they CANNOT have an SAE rating. It's very simple.

[Mike V. Florida]

Allenw, some people never let facts get in the way of their opinion. Here is another link,

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=119270&page=1

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Allenw, some people never let facts get in the way of their opinion. Here is another link,

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=119270&page=1

Thanks Mike.

Some people will always KNOW that the Earth is flat

[J Franklin]

At the science museum in Los Angeles, California when multi-viscosity oil was new on the road, there was an exhibit with 4 clear cylinders of oil, aprox 10' long. 2 were 10-30wt and 2 were 30wt, one of each pair was hot and the other was frigid. you could push a button and the cylinders would teeter on a center pivot and a steel cylinder about the size of a piston would fall to either end. the ones in 10 30wt dropped at close to the same rate while the straight 30wt varied due to temperature. both the hot oil dropped the piston at mostly the same rate. I think this is what Mr Tube is getting at.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Allanw

You should try reading what has been written too.

Like I said earlier - even mechanics often don't know how it works - another perfect example.

SAE developed the standard to rate the oils, and if they are rated 30 weight at operating temperature, they will be of roughly the same viscosity. That is the ENTIRE point of the SAE rating. As the multi weight cools, it doesn't thicken as much as the straight weight does (THIS IS A GOOD THING!). If your oil has cooled down, it will be thicker. Thicker oil isn't better. the correct viscosity is all that is required, and for Summer driving, ford recommended 40 weight. 40 weight when cold, is about 10 TIMES thicker than when it's hot. the 10W-40 I use is only about 2x thicker when cold - it's actually FAR closer to the correct running viscosity.

by your own logic, 30 weight isn't good for your engine, because it actually thins MORE from cold to hot. If you knew how it worked, you'd know this. BOTH oils will be the same viscosity at 100C - the correct viscosity.

Here is some reading for those who haven't managed to read this thread, but reply anyway:

http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/foru...-oil-viscosity

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-...-Viscosity.pdf

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/kb.php?mode=article&k=65

http://www.subaru-impreza.org/forum/...viscosity.html

http://www.astraownersclub.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=40002

If people want to read all that, then reply with more posts making themselves look stupid, I really don't care, but it's not a good idea to come on here telling people FALSE information and misleading them into believing something that is wrong.

What I have posted is not my opinion, it is fact. It is the system that the numbers on the oil bottle are rated by. If they are not rated under this system, they CANNOT have an SAE rating. It's very simple.

Well, I will tell you Allen, I had a 1974 302 Ford Maverick that had 450 thousand miles on it when I sold it, and the guy put it in a pickup, and 2 years after that he was still running it back and fourth to work. When I had it, I changed the oil every 2000 miles, and it still didn't use any oil.

I have a 1992 Ford pick up with a 302 that to date has 339 thousand miles on it. The real seal leaks, along with the pan gasket, but there is not any Blue smoke out the exhaust.

I have always used 30 Wt. summer, and 20wt. winter.

In your opinion, did I wear them out before their time? Ya, how sad I didn't have your knowage from the articles at the time.

We had a 1010 John Deere, long story short, J.D. Recommended 10-30 Wt. oil, summer, and winter for warranty. Every time I changed oil, there was about a 1/4 tea spoon of stuff that looked like Sliver seal in the fliter housing. We put about 7 hundred hours on it, and it was burning lots of oil.

My Brother-in-law owened a J.D. IMP., so we tore the tractor down and found every thing good, except the pistons were all scored.

We put in new pistons and sleeves, and the first oil change had the same Aiuminum Particles in the fliter housing. The next oil change, still the same thing, so I put in 30 Wt. like all our other cars, and tractors, and the Aluminum Particles never showed up after that.

The tractor after after 400 hours, was still fine, dad wanted to trade to a newer one, which was a 2010. The John Deere Co. still recommended 10-30Wt. for Warranty, so that is what I used for the first oil change at 20 hours. The break in oil, and I don't know what that was, both had the Aluminum was back in the fliter housing, so from then on we used 30, Wt., and no more problems.

After that, My Brother-in-Law called his Factory Rep., and told him about the oil, and they didn't seem to concerned and his last comment the Rep. made was, well it should be good for parts, and labor sales.

So after that my Brother-in-Law always recommended 30 Wt.

If a book says you can fit a square Peg in a round, and after trying with out success, It is time to find a different book, a different hole, or Do like a Woodpecker, and use your head!

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Well, I will tell you Allen, I had a 1974 302 Ford Maverick that had 450 thousand miles on it when I sold it, and the guy put it in a pickup, and 2 years after that he was still running it back and fourth to work. When I had it, I changed the oil every 2000 miles, and it still didn't use any oil.

I have a 1992 Ford pick up with a 302 that to date has 339 thousand miles on it. The real seal leaks, along with the pan gasket, but there is not any Blue smoke out the exhaust.

I have always used 30 Wt. summer, and 20wt. winter.

In your opinion, did I wear them out before their time? Ya, how sad I didn't have your knowage from the articles at the time.

We had a 1010 John Deere, long story short, J.D. Recommended 10-30 Wt. oil, summer, and winter for warranty. Every time I changed oil, there was about a 1/4 tea spoon of stuff that looked like Sliver seal in the fliter housing. We put about 7 hundred hours on it, and it was burning lots of oil.

My Brother-in-law owened a J.D. IMP., so we tore the tractor down and found every thing good, except the pistons were all scored.

We put in new pistons and sleeves, and the first oil change had the same Aiuminum Particles in the fliter housing. The next oil change, still the same thing, so I put in 30 Wt. like all our other cars, and tractors, and the Aluminum Particles never showed up after that.

The tractor after after 400 hours, was still fine, dad wanted to trade to a newer one, which was a 2010. The John Deere Co. still recommended 10-30Wt. for Warranty, so that is what I used for the first oil change at 20 hours. The break in oil, and I don't know what that was, both had the Aluminum was back in the fliter housing, so from then on we used 30, Wt., and no more problems.

After that, My Brother-in-Law called his Factory Rep., and told him about the oil, and they didn't seem to concerned and his last comment the Rep. made was, well it should be good for parts, and labor sales.

So after that my Brother-in-Law always recommended 30 Wt.

If a book says you can fit a square Peg in a round, and after trying with out success, It is time to find a different book, a different hole, or Do like a Woodpecker, and use your head!

Not sure what you proved with this.
There is no shortage of modern engines running 300K on 5w20. *shrug*

[BarracudaBoy]

I run exactly what they ran in them back during the depression. Leftover bacon grease in the summer and lighter turkey bacon grease in the winter! :P

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Greg out west

...
also doesn't all muilt weight start out as 30 w ?.


Greg out West

No, it starts out closer to the winter (W) rating, then relies on the multiviscosity additive to partially counteract the normal thinning at higher temperatures.

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

In your opinion, did I wear them out before their time? Ya, how sad I didn't have your knowage from the articles at the time.

I never said 30 weight was wrong. You just think I did.

You seem to still be of the opinion that the multi viscosity is too thin. Since it is already proven (by SAE) that it never gets thinner than the 30 weight at operating temperature, we'll move on.

I can see you can't understand how the SAE system works and that you aren't interested in learning, so we'll move on for those who want to know how oils really work.

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Not sure what you proved with this.
There is no shortage of modern engines running 300K on 5w20. *shrug*

Nothing - unlikely any of it was related to the oil viscosity.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

At the science museum in Los Angeles, California when multi-viscosity oil was new on the road, there was an exhibit with 4 clear cylinders of oil, aprox 10' long. 2 were 10-30wt and 2 were 30wt, one of each pair was hot and the other was frigid. you could push a button and the cylinders would teeter on a center pivot and a steel cylinder about the size of a piston would fall to either end. the ones in 10 30wt dropped at close to the same rate while the straight 30wt varied due to temperature. both the hot oil dropped the piston at mostly the same rate. I think this is what Mr Tube is getting at.

JFranklin,
Around 1953 the WHOLE student body saw this demonstration, as they thought it was such a great breakthrough in oils that everyone should know about it. I've been a multi-grade user since then.
Just choose your favorite quality brand, choose the proper HIGH & LOW numbers to suit your area temperature range & YOU'RE SET TO GO!!
It's kind of like when you read the back of a WAX can or the label on a MOVIE! "YEP, this is the world's greatest!!! Bill W.

DID I KILL A THREAD AGAIN?? Bill W.

[marc hildebrant]

With regard to the W (winter) in 5W-30 ; what is the temperature for the winter measurement ?

Summer is 212 F.

Marc

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Allanw

I never said 30 weight was wrong. You just think I did.

You seem to still be of the opinion that the multi viscosity is too thin. Since it is already proven (by SAE) that it never gets thinner than the 30 weight at operating temperature, we'll move on.

I can see you can't understand how the SAE system works and that you aren't interested in learning, so we'll move on for those who want to know how oils really work.

My experience has worked out way different then your book!

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Allanw

Nothing - unlikely any of it was related to the oil viscosity.

In your liberal analyze, you missed the part where 10-30Wt. was breaking down, and letting the pistons score!

[Mike V. Florida]

Time to close, the posts are beginning to turn to personal attacks.

[Ryan]

Personal attacks over oil? Seriously? Jesus god...