fire wall does not match frame

[wbs]

hello again
i bought a model A 30 roadster in pieces
i complained to the Barn latelty that sills/rails did not match frame
now am in the process of installing firewall and :
throttle foot pedal wont clear bottom of firewall
and clutch pedal wont clear bottotm of frewall

should firewalls be the same for all roadsters? has anyone else encountered this and did they solve the problem by cutting into the frewall?

by the way, i think the rails were from a 32 ford but don't know for certain.

the picture of the throttle foot pedal stub not clearing the firewall was difficult to show, sorry

[Chuck Dempsey]

My only suggestion is to be sure you don't have any 'frame sag' around the motor mounts. That can throw lots of alignments off....

Good luck.

[gdmn852]

Hello, yes you may have engine mount sag , that would locate the pedals in a downward position, or if frame twist , or body is shimmed up high could also be part of the problem.

[gdmn852]

Here’s a picture of the cowl and frame area , your car should be the same , the firewalls on 1930 and early 31 are the same , later 31 have an indented firewall around the gas shutoff area, but fitment would be the same. Engine mount would be where the 3 bolts are on frame.Also if I remember correctly a 32 side frame rails are actually the splash apron and frame would be longer than a Model A.

[wbs]

thank you i will put a straight edge on frame the obstruction to the pedal seems so severe

[jerrytocci]

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32 rails are easy to identify. I think your firewall is too low. Lay the fuel tank in.

[42merc]

The frame rails pictured are Model A, not 32.

[Keith True]

It looks like that firewall is way too low,that upper section of the subrail looks like it is riding too high on the firewall.Is the foot of the firewall original,where the single bolt goes through the frame?Has it rusted off and been replaced? Pictures of that,inside and out,would show more.

[gdmn852]

Picture of opposite if it helps.

[Planojc]

Do you have it sitting on the body blocks and pads?

[wbs]

hello thanks for all the replys some answers to helper-replyers -yes is on blocks. no firewall does not have any repairs.
what is method for evaluating frame sag?
thanks for all pix from gdmn
sorry for being slow to thank all

[gdmn852]

Front left block and shim

[gdmn852]

Firewall, outer cowl off

[Chuck Dempsey]

WBS - with the body lifted off one side of the frame, stretch a string from one end of the frame to the other. The string should be perfectly flat on the surface... Any space between the string and the frame is 'sag'. There are lots of posts on the 'Barn about how to fix, none of the methods easy.

Good Luck

[Pete in Michigan]

Looks like body needs to be moved forward.

[rotorwrench]

It would be interesting to see a photo of the OP's frame. The engine & trans with pedals looks to be model A but the frame might be missing the side tabs for the front body mounts or it could have other modifications. Even removing the rest of the front floor boards would help. The body has to set up on the blocks as well as the splash shields and the webbing between the shields and the frame. Others mention too low and maybe too far aft and I tend to agree about that. The throttle bell crank is bolted to the back of the engine and clutch housing so it needs to clear the firewall to function properly.

[gdmn852]

Hello again another poor quality picture of the bracket for front body mount, with wood block between body and it , firewall to frame has around 1/4 gap . Are you trying to mount fire wall directly to frame? Should be a couple of shims that would move the firewall up to cowl .Trying to figure what a previous owner did can be frustrating.

[gdmn852]

Also do you have any pictures of what you do have that trying to assemble? As mentioned in previous posts that would be helpful.If firewall has been removed from cowl , maybe holes where it was spot welded to cowl,if it is same firewall they would line up .Original welds would have to be drilled out for firewall replacement. Once again maybe search “firewall replacement “ posts on Ford Barn.

[wbs]

thanks again- the Mrs. has the camera and is on vacation for 2 weeks, therefore i can't get any pix for a while. in regard to gdmn thanksfor the great pix and to ans ur ques the rivets connecting the fw to 45 degree floor bd metal ramps were drilled out and screws inserted in other words no former welds.

there is something unique in this car as mentioned before in that the cross members are not over the frame holes by inches, not fractions of an inch, as shown in Andrews book.

the frame strapping is in place and tabs not sawed off.

in next few days i,m going to raise cowls and fw should follow i think

[Keith True]

In your last picture we can see where you are off.You used logic,in thinking because the holes in the subframe,block,and the mounting flange all line up that is how they go.Not the case.Only one bolt is used on the 2 bolt frame mount,not 2.One hole is empty.However,the one bolt at the foot of the firewall should drop through the single in the frame itself.Slide that cowl ahead until only one hole in that flange lines up,then see where everything else lands.

[wbs]

hello again- it is very hard for the nice repliers to help me think things out when i fail them.
i notice in the frame an approx 7/16 hole slightly posterior [1" back] to the engine mounts. i notice that there is a very heavy [5/16 thick] metal anngle on the front lateral base of the cowl with a 7/16" hole.

when i move the cowl forward wth the fire wall closer to the engine such that the two holes line up, the clutch ,brake,foot throttle pedal all hve enuf room to actuate.

when i examine the rails, i can see that they have welds in them making me think they were shortened

final ques= should the hole in frame be bolted to the heavy duty hole in the base of the cowl? in other words moveing cowl and fire wall just maybe 3or so inches from the indentation in thefw?
if true, i should have seen this days ago. thanks to all
sorry, wife no t back with camera

[wbs]

hello again- it is very hard for the nice repliers to help me think things out when i fail them.
i notice in the frame an approx 7/16 hole slightly posterior [1" back] to the engine mounts. i notice that there is a very heavy [5/16 thick] metal anngle on the front lateral base of the cowl with a 7/16" hole.

when i move the cowl forward wth the fire wall closer to the engine such that the two holes line up, the clutch ,brake,foot throttle pedal all hve enuf room to actuate.

when i examine the rails, i can see that they have welds in them making me think they were shortened

final ques= should the hole in frame be bolted to the heavy duty hole in the base of the cowl? in other words moveing cowl and fire wall just maybe 3or so inches from the indentation in thefw?
if true, i should have seen this days ago. thanks to all

[Keith True]

Everything indexes off that front hole in the frame.Everything falls into place after that.I spotted that you had bolts in the two holes in the flange,that is not correct for the roadster.Only one is used.I've seen cars with a piece of angle at the foot of the firewall,not sure if that is an improvement that Ford did,or if it was something aftermarket.

[rotorwrench]

Welding found on the frame could have been done for a number of reasons. I've seen quite a few that were welded to repair cracks. I've also seen fittings and cross members welded due to loose or missing rivets and some with elongated holes. You never know what you'll find. Shortening is mostly done to make doodle bugs but they are usually too short to use for anything else.

The Les Andrew's Mechanics Handbook Volume I has a good rundown on frame holes with bolt sizes for the different model A applications on pages 1-25 through 1-32. The book is short on photos since it mostly uses illustrations but it has a lot of good text information.

[gdmn852]

Here is a picture of the wood front body blocks,how they work on the 31 , the last hole on block is a carriage bolt that goes though the hole at door post , this does not attach to frame but rather bolts to the wood block with flat washer and nut . The next two go through the body sub frame, the wood block, rubber shims and into the bracket that is hanging outside of frame. The first hole on body at edge of firewall has no block but usually round rubber shims between firewall and frame. Hope this helps.

[wbs]

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hello again- it is very hard for the nice repliers to help me think things out when i fail them.
i notice in the frame an approx 7/16 hole slightly posterior [1" back] to the engine mounts. i notice that there is a very heavy [5/16 thick] metal anngle on the front lateral base of the cowl with a 7/16" hole.

when i move the cowl forward wth the fire wall closer to the engine such that the two holes line up, the clutch ,brake,foot throttle pedal all hve enuf room to actuate.

when i examine the rails, i can see that they have welds in them making me think they were shortened

final ques= should the hole in frame be bolted to the heavy duty hole in the base of the cowl? in other words moveing cowl and fire wall just maybe 3or so inches from the indentation in the fw?
if true, i should have seen this days ago. thanks to all

sorry, Mrs. has camera and been on vacation 2weeks, so no pix

[gdmn852]

Hello. Picture of front body mount from inside the car , originally there is no welding on the frame, it’s riveted together,so if you have angles welded to it someone would have added them. The first hole is located near the engine mount if that helps.

[wbs]

thanks to all who helped me: keith explaining , gdmn, roto etc--gdmn pix has straightened me out and i should be in business now --the welds that i saw in the rails i thought were repairs but they were modifications

[David R.]

Isn’t there a wood block missing?

[Keith True]

There is no wood block under the foot of the firewall on the 30-31.Just a rubber pad.