Difficulty Bleeding 1940 Brakes

[mike42]

Morning .....

I've been on here for the last 8 months asking for help on getting my brakes bled on 1940 Sedan. Still spongy, but I dod have brakes.

I don't know how many of you are Members of the Early V8 Club of America where they send out a V8 Times every two months. Well.....I just got mine yesterday and on Page #95...guess what..... a complete article regarding the same damn problem that I have been going through. It's almost word for word on things that I did you resolve the spongy brakes.

Maybe all you guys have known this, but.....on some of the Chinese made Shoes.......the prong that goes into the wheel cylinder slot is 3/8' too short !! also the brake lining is not in correct spot on the sub straight show frame. I will try to dig out the old shoes I took off, as the rears were the original shoes from 1940 and were never replaced.

The article says that one guy welded a tab on each shoe to extend the 3/8" shortage and I'm either going to buy new shoes or have this tab welded on.

I just thought I'd share this after all the crap I've been going through.

You all remember the Chinese....they're the ones who brought us Covid-19 !

Thx again and have a good morning

Mike ~

[19Fordy]

Mike, Thanks for posting that info.
At this point in the program considering all the grief you have gone thru with your brakes, try and buy some correct Henry Ford made brake shoes.
It will be worth the peace of mind.

[deuce_roadster]

What 19Fordy said. If you can't find enough original shoes in your stash to be relined locally PM me and I will give you what you are missing. I used to have a guy who relined what look like brake shoes for winch brakes redo mine and he would bond some super lining on, but he retired. I am sure you can find someone who can do that in Michigan. Michael at 3rd Gen Automotive probably has new lining and rivets if nobody can bond them near you. I probably have some too. Check with Michael first.

[JSeery]

Yes Mike, the shoe problem is well known and there have be a number of post (with photos) showing the issue. Another on is the wheel cylinders that are miss-drilled.

These issues were pointed out in a prior thread of yours: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...=mike42&page=3

Post 37 & 41 point out the wheel cylinder issues and post 46 is about the brake shoe issue. For future reference, you would be way ahead of the game dealing with someone very knowledgeable in all of this, 3rd Gen parts (35fordtn).

[V8COOPMAN]

.

By golly, an easily-obtainable set of those "fancy-pants" reproduction Lincoln, Bendix-type backing plates (available at a 10% discount from Krylon32 for 'Barn members), produced by Boling Bros/MT Car Products, will not only take care of the ongoing parts BS, but they'll give you the braking efficiency that Henry only afforded for his "pricey" Lincoln Zeps.....and NOT for his 'lower-priced' Fords. Just sayin'....something to maybe think about! DD

[JSeery]

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Bendix brakes are SO much easier to deal with IMO.

[19Fordy]

V8 and Mr. Seery are giving good advice. Years ago, I bought the complete Bolling Bros. brake set up for my 40 from Corn Huskers Rod and Custom) (Krylon on HAMB) and never looked back.
Be sure to save and reuse your rear hub bearings as the new repros. lack quality needed.

However, you might keep using your Lockheed brakes once you get the correct shoes. Then later on down the road go to Bolling Bros.

[V8COOPMAN]

.

In reference to Jim's (19Fordy) pictures above, I just have to wonder what kind of personal charms Jim must possess that he's allowed to store all of his old car junk in the middle of Momma's beautiful, tiled kitchen floor! DD

[tubman]

Hmm. I never had a problem with Ford Lockheed brakes, but I guess that was just because i used them in relatively light cars. A "T" Bucket and a '36 3-window.

I also used all new components; this was in the last century; perhaps parts availability has suffered since then.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by tubman

Hmm. I never had a problem with Ford Lockheed brakes, but I guess that was just because i used them in relatively light cars. A "T" Bucket and a '36 3-window.

I also used all new components; this was in the last century; perhaps parts availability has suffered since then.

The biggest factor is that the Lockheeds don't have the "self-energizing" feature that the Bendix brakes have. Plus, you can get the Bendix with 2"-wide shoes, vs the 1.75"-wide Lockheeds. DD

[tubman]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

The biggest factor is that the Lockheed's don't have the "self-energizing" feature that the Bendix brakes have. Plus, you can get the Bendix with 2"-wide shoes, vs the 1.75"-wide Lockheed's. DD

I think it's all relative. When I grew up, hardly anybody had power brakes, so we were all used to a little extra pedal effort. I have had people that wanted to drive my '51 coupe, that has the best stock brake (Bendix) system I could install. Some of of them asked me what was wrong with my brakes, since it took so much pedal pressure to activate them. There was nothing wrong with the brakes, they had just never driven a car without power brakes.' I think it's the same with people who haven't driven cars without self-energizing brakes.

After having just driven my neighbors new BMW, I have to say that we are all spoiled by new cars.

[mike42]

Guys thx for all the info. Tomorrow is the day I'll be tearing one of the rears off to see if they match the original Henry's. This ought to be fun. As I recall it was a bitch of a job with all the parking brake linkage, but I need to do it as I've got brakes, but spongy brakes.

Tubman.....I've had the car 10 years and I had solid non-power brakes before I got the brainstorm that it was time to install new. This all started early last October. Turned into a Drama though.

Thx all.....more news on the 11 o'clock report !!

Mike

[19Fordy]

Mike, Be sure to release the E-Brake before you start taking things apart.
Also, take pictures and make notations. Here's a photo of the driver side rear set up.
I used a ball peen hammer to release tension on E-Brake cable. DON'T USE VISE GRIPS as it will fray your cable.

[cas3]

If you have you're old shoes, ship them to brake and equipment in Minneapolis to be relined

[russcc]

I have plenty of original 39-41, and 42-48 shoes, and make a point of keeping the rivet type so I can rivet on the old type linings. As one old timer, (like me) said, "The stock old time brakes in the '40, properly adjusted will put you through the windshield" PM me if you need either of the two types of shoes. I will send them to you for shipping cost.

[mike42]

UPDATE !!!!!!!!!! After 8 damn months....I have solid brakes or as solid as they can be for 81 years old. I took everything apart on the right rear to check the shoes against the original Ford shoes and they were exactly the same. I belt sanded the shoes to match the newly cut drum the best I could do. Cleaned everything again with a brush and brake cleaner and reassembled everything. I bought a Motive Pressure Bleeder and hooked it up dry. Held at 15 psi. Put 2 large cans of fluid in the tank and hooked up the adapter to seal the system. Pumped to 15 psi and watched the needle and it didn't move 1 psi....just cracked the bleed valve and a blast of air came out and then got a strong flow of fluid. Tightened it all up and low and behold....SOLID BRAKES !!!!!!! I cannot tell you how relieved I am.

I just want to say again thanks for everyone who pitched in with suggestions. I would never have been able to get through all this without all the suggestions and guidance. Very much appreciated.

Thanks to all.....Mike

[JSeery]

Good work Mike!

[glennpm]

Great Mike! Puts a smile on your face doesn't it?


Glenn

[mike42]

Glenn....there was a smile and a few Jack Daniels to go with it !!! Just sayin'.....!

[glennpm]

Good to take pleasure when you can Mike!

[tubman]

Yaaay!

[russcc]

I just finished bleeding the brakes on the '40 today, and used a Motive Products bleeder. It worked great. Simple, reasonably priced and effective. The only drawback is Motive Products didn't have, was out of or didn't know what adapter fit the 1050 MC in the '40, so i had to make my own. I drilled and tapped the MC cap for 1/8 NPT, temporarily plugged the 2 small vent holes with epoxy and made up a detachable hose connection to go between the MC cap and bleeder hose. The photos will show the MC cap with the 1/8 NPT x 1/4 brass nipple, the supplied slick crimp bands, 1/4 clear vinyl hose and 1/4" SAE female swivel nut that mates to a male SAE 45 degree x 1/4 NPT adapter that threads into the Motive bleeder hose fitting. Anyone have the part # for the Motive adapter that fits the 1050 Ford MC ?

[mike42]

Russ.....

That's exactly what I did. I had the same cap....bought a fitting....tapped it out and my buddy brazed the 2 air holes and also brazed the fitting to the cap and I used the Motive pressure tank. Worked like a charm !! I pumped it to 15psi and it held pressure so I know I had a closed system. When I opened the bleeder valve there was a blast of air that shot out and then a good fluid stream. The fitting I made up worked great. It's such a relief after 8 months of screwing with it. Life is good again !

Thx....Mike

[russcc]

Hi Mike

Did you drill out the 2 vent holes afterward ? I plan to, that's why I was looking for the correct adapter. I have an email into CS at Motive about figuring out what adapter fits the MC. I offered to send them the MC cap, but CS says they need the "reservoir", which gives you and indication how far out in left field CS is. I sent them pictures of the MC cap, it's threads, and the MC top opening threads. I also told them the 1050 MC was the "reservoir". Will see what they come up with. If you had a Honda they would know exactly what you needed.

[mike42]

Russ.....No .....I saved that one I made up just in case I have a prob in the future. I had a couple extra caps and used one of them. There is NO adapter available for the old cars and that's why I went with what I did. Works great. I left the small holes brazed shut.

Mike

[russcc]

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That's good to know because if there are no adapters for older cars I will find another cap for the MC, and keep this one as is for the same reason.

[Russ/40]

Curious, you fellows who used the pressure bleeder, did you use DOT5 silicone fluid?
I ask, because i hear it said frequently, that you must not agitate DOT5 because it causes micro bubbles and contributes to a spongy peddle.

[tubman]

DOT-5 fluid is on the way out. It does not work well with anti-lock brakes, which are becoming more and more common, so it will become increasingly difficult to source. Also, as you stated, it can be hard to bleed. I had it in my '68 Corvette. It was very difficult to bleed, but once I got it in, it was great. That being said, it was the last time I used it. I now flush and change the fluid in my cars brake systems every 10-15 years with no problems. Speed-Bleeders make this an easy process.

[mike42]

Russ and Russ '40.....save the fitting you made as there is NO others available. I talked with the Motive guys 2 times.

I am using DOT 3 and never tried anything else. Brakes good right now, but had a fuel prob of late that I'm working on.

Thx...Mike

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by mike42

Russ and Russ '40.....save the fitting you made as there is NO others available. I talked with the Motive guys 2 times.

I am using DOT 3 and never tried anything else. Brakes good right now, but had a fuel prob of late that I'm working on.

Thx...Mike

Damn! When it GO's, it won't STOP! Then when it STOPS, it won't GO! Then, when it ALL works, there's too much snow to play, right? DD

[Mart]

On the subject of adaptor caps for oddball cylinders.. You don't actually need a screw fitting cap. I have used a flat piece of plate with a npt hole drilled and tapped in it. I positioned the plate over the hole using a piece of rubber cut from an inner tube and clamped the plate to the top of the master cylinder.
Once fitted, just proceed as normal with the pressure bleed operation. As they say: "It worked for me".
Mart.

[mike42]

Coopman ...you are right. Snow comes fast in Northern Michigan in late October !! Get done what you can when the Sun is shinning !

Mart.....I bought that kit from Motive with the flat rubber plate and the chains and screws, etc. I threw it in the trash. Could not get it to seal properly, but maybe that's just me. I made up the plug from an extra cap I had and the "first" time I used that pressure bleeder....."instant" hard pedal !

Thx.....Mike

[vetpenny]

Mike
Do you know the issue of the ford v8 magazine that has an article on spongy 1940 ford brakes on page 95? Thanks for your help.

[Zeke3]

Volume 58, number 3, May/June 2021 Early V8 Times has an article about suspect brake parts on page 95.

[19Fordy]

I wonder if you could make a custom MC bleeder cap using a rubber freeze plug?
https://www.google.com/search?q=rubb...hrome&ie=UTF-8

[mike42]

Vet & Zeke ……. I did see that article and torn down one rear and one front to check measurements and all okay. The new shoes were exactly like the 1940 original Ford shoes.

Fordy ……..you might be able to do that, but I happened to have an extra steel cap and had a buddy braze on a fitting. I’ve got 400 miles on the brakes now and I just re-bled & I’m in great shape with brakes !

Thx……..Mike