Is the engine rebuilt?

[tim54889]

What would be the easiest way to verify that engine was actually rebuilt? Looking at a potential purchase. Seller has no receipts. He was told it was all rebuilt when he bought it 8 years ago. I know pull the pan or head, don't want to do that. Light down the spark plug hole? Any suggestions?

[Mitch//pa]

seller was told it was rebuilt when he bought it and now the same story is being told plus the use it has received over the past ownership. assume its an older engine when figuring out your purchase price...
what type of oil has been run in it detergent or non? if non it will need a clean out.

do the numbers match??

[MikeK]

Nothing short of a complete tear down will give you the complete picture. A leakdown test (not just compression) will give some indication of the ability to run, but you will still have no idea as to how sunk the valve seats are, how sloppy the guides are, the babbitt condition, the cam wear, etc.

I would base my purchase on the assumption that an engine R&R is needed. Even if there is a rebuild receipt, without detailed specs as to exactly what was done it just becomes sales talk.

[tim54889]

The seller never ran it. Would an engine have a complete rebuild and then be painted red? This is why I am suspicious. What other suggestions?

[Mitch//pa]

was it run by the previous owner before this one who actually rebuilt it? you never mentioned that it has not been started by this owner...how was the engine stored all these years???/have the cylinders been kept lubricated and turned periodically?? all info and details are necessary as it makes it hard when we have to squeeze it out

[Bruce Adams]

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Why not do a compression test anyway?
This would at least tell you to eliminate it as a tired engine.
What color were Model A engines used for farm implements or industrial use?
I believe they MIGHT have been red.

[Mitch//pa]

if its a brand new never started engine the piston tops should be brand new and shiny as well as the cylinder walls with a fresh cross hatch pattern looking in the plug hole with a boroscope. the valves should also look fresh...
then knowing that you would need to pull the pan and inspect the babitt and or bearings to see what has been done on the bottom end... assuming your not going through all of this figure its an older engine..
agree with Mike on doing a leak down test which will give you a good indication of overall engine health.
no receipts no dice

[BlueSunoco]

I side with Mike also, PLUS who did the rebuild? There's probably no way to find out but I've seen a number of 'rebuilt' engines that are only so in name only. Yes, 'selling talk' nothing more. Unless you have a Herm Kohnke, Ora Schwalm, or James Rogers engine for example, who truly know what they are doing, it's a crap shoot. Motor will undoubtably need to be taken down and gone through by an expert.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by tim54889

The seller never ran it. Would an engine have a complete rebuild and then be painted red? This is why I am suspicious. What other suggestions?

I wouldn't trust anyone that would pant a Model A engine red to rebuild a Model A engine. If it wasn't run there could be all kinds of hidden problems. The price has a lot to do with the decision, what is he asking for he engine?

Charlie Stephens

[J Franklin]

If you are willing to spend money on it why don't you want to at least pull the head and pan? There are only a few bolts and nuts holding them on.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Pay as though the engine is not rebuilt, but I'd oil the cylinders and run the engine to see if it doesn't work fine as is. I think SEARS rebuilt engines were always painted red, and I don't know who rebuilt engines for Sears, nor do I know the quality.

I have a garage sale find red engine that was said to be rebuilt by the seller's dad, who was a mechanic. The engine is in a contraption called a deer hauler (also red), that his dad made years ago to pull deer out of the woods. When I first started the engine several mice came flying out in pieces through the open wishbone hole. The engine purrs as nice as can be, and I will stick it in my 29 Tudor.

[tim54889]

The engine is in a car. If you were selling a car you probably won't let a potential buyer take it apart. I'am just trying to figure out how to verify if it is a newly rebuilt engine. And your're right, to some people an engine rebuild is a shot of paint.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by tim54889

The engine is in a car. If you were selling a car you probably won't let a potential buyer take it apart. I'am just trying to figure out how to verify if it is a newly rebuilt engine. And your're right, to some people an engine rebuild is a shot of paint.

Hey tim,
Well, at least you have the first thing that you need to keep your ego and wallet healthy, i.e.- a good sense of scepticizm (?) ! That is, if it looks like a pig, smells like a pig and has been painted with red lipstick like a pig...well .

Your analogy to examining a 'CAR' is not valid here, IMO. I can look over a car in close detail and make a educated decision on that basis. If this guy refuses to acknowledge the value (to him and you) of your disassembling the involved engine....leave this pig in it's sty, would be my action.

Your exam could be as simple as pulling the head AND oil pan, to get enough info. Question is, is his asking price that of a 'rebuilt' engine...or that for pig in poke ?

[tim54889]

That's just it, the price is reflecting that there is a rebuilt engine in it. If I have to rebuild the engine then it needs to be a couple K less. Just wish I bought those see thru glasses they had on the back of comic books!

[Mitch//pa]

the see thru glasses only work for clothes

[Tom Wesenberg]

So, it sounds like the complete car is for sale, and that'ss what you are maybe going to buy. At first I thought you were just buying an engine, possibly from a restored car being rodded. If the car is for sale, I'd think the seller would have the engine running, or let you get it running, before the sale. Without hearing the engine run, the sale price would drop by at least a couple thousand. It just isn't that hard to fire up the engine, unless it threw a rod, stripped a cam gear or ???

[Dennis Pereira]

If its in the car ? Take the time to start it before any money changes hands .

[tim54889]

Thanks, Guys, And, as I found, to my great disappointment, the X ray glasses don't work on clothing either!!

[MikeK]

[Capt Kirk]

The seller "says" it was rebuilt when he got it 8 years ago. I'm also hearing that it wasn't run after the seller got it. Pull a spark plug...is it bright-shiny new? Buy or rent a bore scope and run it down through the plug holes. You'll have your answer right then. If things are shiny and new in the bores then maybe the price can come up a bit. Without knowing who did the rebuild you should still be skeptical. A reputable builder may have done the work or kids in shop class may have built it for a project. If you've got shiny new parts then those probably aren't parts that you'd have to purchase again if you wanted to do a tear-down and rebuild. Passing a leak-down test would also add some value.
Another way you could play it is tell they guy that you'll pay $X as it sits (core value) and that if he lets you remove the head and pan and you confirm what he's saying is true you'll give him his asking price and say you'll put it back together if the deal falls through. If he's confident that his assertions are true...he won't have a problem. If he's hiding something, he's probably not going to want you snooping around the innards.

[Domino]

BEWARE: My son and I rebuilt a engine (new babbit, rod, pistons, valves, etc. and it was done correctly. We cranked and ran it twice for about 5 minutes then stored it on a stand with the oil in it. It sat for 8 years in an unclimte controlled shed without being run or even cranked over. At Christmas we dropped it in a car and learned that it would not even turn over. Basically , it had gummed up solid. We removed the head pistons etc. and cleaned it up. Runs fine now.

Unless you hear it run ,I follow th adage "Buyer Beware".

[hardtimes]

Hey Mike,
Nifty glasses, but you don't have to buy such gimmicks to see 'thru it all' now...just watch public television !

[Rex_A_Lott]

I'd do the borescope in the spark plug holes and the oil filler tube. This will tell you if you even want to put in the effort to make it crank.
Engines dont fare well sitting that long. You might get lucky and its perfect, but I'd bet you, ( and the owner) are going to be real disappointed in what you find.
You might try posting your location, there might be someone local that can help you.
Good Luck to You

[tim54889]

How about this. Ebay has a borescope that plugs into a laptop. $12. Stick it down a spark plug hole or maybe the oil filler.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by tim54889

How about this. Ebay has a borescope that plugs into a laptop. $12. Stick it down a spark plug hole or maybe the oil filler.

Tim,
Is thet anything like the BORASCOPE "they" used on me? It wuz SO LOOOONG, the Dr. sed, "Have you seen a Dentist lately"?
Bill W.

[Mitch//pa]

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Dad
the doc told me your full of s--t

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Dad
the doc told me your full of s--t

NOPE! I wuz as EMPTY as a paper BAG---Took me 3 days of eating everything in sight, before I P**PED, the first time!!
Dad W.

[tim54889]

sport coupe engine.jpg

[tim54889]

Does this look like a newly rebuild engine?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by tim54889

Does this look like a newly rebuild engine?

I would pull a plug and look into the cylinder. From what little of the car shows, it looks like it will need a lot of work. It still wouldn't take a lot of work to run the engine though.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Tim,
Is thet anything like the BORASCOPE "they" used on me? It wuz SO LOOOONG, the Dr. sed, "Have you seen a Dentist lately"?
Bill W.

Ouch,

I've been guzzling cabbage juice, getting ready to drink gallon of a lemon flavored laxative. Tomorrow I get my second round of, let's look for polyps. The first time I was awake and watched the monitor. Drove the doc nuts with questions. This time I'll keep my mouth shut, unless the doc pokes in too much hose.

[MikeK]

That stuff they give you to drink the day before works better than any crankcase or radiator flush I've ever used. Next time (and there will be a next time!) I'll save some and try it in a Model A.

[BlueSunoco]

Originally Posted by MikeK

That stuff they give you to drink the day before works better than any crankcase or radiator flush I've ever used. Next time (and there will be a next time!) I'll save some and try it in a Model A.

I like that!!!

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Tim,
Is thet anything like the BORASCOPE "they" used on me? It wuz SO LOOOONG, the Dr. sed, "Have you seen a Dentist lately"?
Bill W.

I had one of those recently. Just before I went under, I asked the doctor if he would write a brief report especially for my wife. Something like "Even after a thorough investigation, we found no evidence his head is up there!!!"

[tim54889]

I think my post got high jacked!!!

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by tim54889

Does this look like a newly rebuild engine?

i dont believe anyone here has a crystal ball
as mentioned many times assume it has not been.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Have you scoped it out???

[leakers]

Originally Posted by tim54889

Attachment 227010

Where I come from we would call that a Dulux rebuild

[Brianfrench65]

That engine does not look great to me. I sure would pull the plugs, and use the borescope. If it looks promising, I would run the engine.

Otherwise, I would only pay the price for an engine that needs rebuilding.

[Brianfrench65]

One engine I was told was rebuilt, I took apart before the sale.

[Brianfrench65]

This is what the head looked like.

I put it back together, and ran the engine. It ran remarkably well.

It was running extremely rich.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by caboose

Ouch,

I've been guzzling cabbage juice, getting ready to drink gallon of a lemon flavored laxative. Tomorrow I get my second round of, let's look for polyps. The first time I was awake and watched the monitor. Drove the doc nuts with questions. This time I'll keep my mouth shut, unless the doc pokes in too much hose.

Caboose,
IF you need any advice for making the second day more bearable, just P.M. me.
Dr. Bill W.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Caboose,
IF you need any advice for making the second day more bearable, just P.M. me.
Dr. Bill W.

ur going to get reported again
lol

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

ur going to get reported again
lol

I hope not. P.M.'s are supposed to be PRIVATE!! They ARE, PRIVATE, aren't they?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????
Dad W.

[ckulchar]

Will the current owner give you the previous owners name? Could be on the title.

[tim54889]

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I asked, some guy in California, no title.

[Brianfrench65]

In my opinion, there is very little value, without a title and some proof, that other than paint, there was engine work performed.

Again, this is just my opinion.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Has any purchace decision been made yet?

You have a dilemma. If you spend a couple hours and get the engine running for the seller, the price will go up, especially if it runs great. If you buy it as is you have no idea what you bought, other than red paint on the complete motor.

[hangarb7]

Tim,

Only my opinion, but if this were a 1915 Hooshmaroosh, and the only one available in the world, it is a different animal. But Model A's in every conceivable condition and price are available everywhere.

Whatever this guy is asking is probably what he paid foolishly and then let the car sit, in my mind actually reducing the value.

Whatever you feel it is worth with essentially a broken motor (would you buy a car off the car lot with a broken motor, no matter what they said?) is what it is worth; or whatever he is asking, then take off $5K and walk away. If he is desperate, you'll get the car.

If not, buy another one. You'll be happy you did. This pig has been around the loop apparently and you don't want to be in that routine unless the car is super cheap. Walk away is my two cents. But you are the mechanic in charge.

If you do get it cheap, I bet it runs perfectly after you put a little effort into it.

JackD

[tim54889]

The guy still has it for sale, I'll wait and call him again in a week or two. You guys are giving some great advise , Thanks, Tim

[Mikeinnj]

Don't buy it without a title. You will be restoring a car that probably will never be legally titled, and all the work will be in vain. Look elsewhere....there are plenty of Model A's to be found with legal titles and proper repair receipts.

[Bruce Adams]

Did you say the car has NO TITLE?? If so, that is a show stopper for sure.
I think you are worried too much about the "Recently Rebuilt Engine" story since these engines last years and as many have said, there are plenty of Model A's around with new or slightly used engines. Good Luck !

[tim54889]

Yea!! It was removed from Craigslist, now I don't have to think about it any more! See you at Back To the 50's in St Paul this weekend!!