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Old 03-18-2015, 08:02 PM   #1
diiulio
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Default Valves hitting heads

Ok, I am finally getting my 8ba together. I have an Ford 8ba, with stock valves, stock crank, Isky 400jr cam, and EAB heads.

I just finished adjusting the valves at .018" on both intake and exhaust. The cam and crank gears only go on one way and I lined the dots/hash marks up.

So, my problem is I rested one head on at a time, put three bolts in loose, and then cycled the crank a bunch of times. I put no gasket on. The head would lift when one of the valves were up for each cylinder.

How do I figure out what the conflict is?
Should I just bring my block and heads to a machine shop and let them correct? I can't machine the heads any ways.
My other option may be to just buy some aftermarket aluminum heads, but not sure I won't have clearance issues there too.

Anybody in VA area is welcome to swing by if you like.
Jason
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Now you have a new issue as you may have bent some valves. Valves bend very easily, so I would be checking that as well. It is not uncommon to have to cut valve clearance for a high lift cam.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:20 PM   #3
diiulio
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

You think I would have bent valves with the bolts in loose? I still had 1/4" at least to the bolt head. The heads were never restricted by the bolts.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Are you sure it is valves and not piston hitting?
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

But the valves had to be lifting the heads. I really have no idea if it would bend them or not. But valves bend very easy, it doesn't take much at all. Just something to check.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

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Just thinking here, but I would space the heads up a safe distance, washers or something under the four corners of the heads. Then use clay or foil or whatever on top of the valves and the piston. Turn it over and measure the clay (whatever) to determine the clearances.
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Old 03-19-2015, 03:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

The valves are hitting the head.
Think about it, stock cam some where around .330" lift, 400jr advertised lift .400".
Measure the lift at the valve with a 6" scale & then the chamber to get some idea about clearance.
Un-milled stock EAB heads have a lot of piston clearance. The heads need the work to clear the valves.
A MAX-1 with .364" lift doesn't have lift issues.

Last edited by 42merc; 03-19-2015 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 03-19-2015, 05:51 AM   #8
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Just put a dab of grease around each valve at 90 degree locations(4 places per valve) and repeat your loose head test. The transferred grease will give you a clue. Often a hand grinder can correct the problem if not too serious.

A better solution would be to loose the 400jr. Just my opinion.
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Old 03-19-2015, 06:23 AM   #9
diiulio
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

I'll try the grease on the valves.

JWL,
What is your reason for losing the 400jr? You don't like the cam? What do you prefer, L-100 or max1?
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Old 03-19-2015, 06:28 AM   #10
Walt Dupont--Me.
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

The EAB heads are pretty tight heads for stock heads, I use a lot of them, They won't stand much milling before the pistons hit, and of course 400 lift cam is problem with the EAB heads. You won't hurt the valves by just laying them on a few studs and letting the valve push the heads up. To make it easier I always do my valve before installing the pistons and check valve for clearance. BUT, once you find out how much the valves are lifting the heads that's easy to fix. Lay a head gasket on the heads and scribe a mark around the top of the head valve pockets, Take the heads to a machine shop and have them set the heads up at a 5 anglel on a Bridge Port and use a cutter I think around 1-7/8 and cut down next to the scribe mark down the depth you want, You'll only taking an eye brow out up in that radius. Of course you want to check piston clearance, if the clearance is zero with no gaskets the gaskets are usually .050 so that's perfect. Walt
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Old 03-19-2015, 06:32 AM   #11
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

I don't like the 400jr for any street application because of the wear issues and noise. I do like it for a short track race engine. What is better? It depends on your reason for changing from a stock cam-------do you desire less low end torque but more top end power? Is this change only for the purpose of introducing a "salty" idle?? What are you trying to accomplish? What is the overall goal?
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Old 03-19-2015, 07:10 AM   #12
diiulio
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Thank you Walt.

JWL,
My goal is streetable car with a nice lumpy sound. Honestly, if I wanted high HP or torque I wouldn't be using a flatty, I would have just kept the Olds 303 that was in it. I am not racing the car or doing anything other than enjoying it. I based the cam on a few books I had purchased and some posts here on Ford Barn. I was torn between the Max1 and 400jr. I have zero experience with flatheads and don't really know anybody with flatheads. I can't remember why I chose the 400jr over the max1, but it may have been Mike Bishop's book.

This is going in a 30 Model A coupe with no hood or fenders. I had an Olds 303 rocket in it, but loved the traditional aspect of the flatty, the look, and the sound. I am also putting a T5 behind the flatty.

Right or wrong I have the 400jr in it now. Is it really that bad that you wouldn't use it? This is the first time I have heard negatives on this cam.
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Old 03-19-2015, 07:47 AM   #13
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Not for the faint of heart, and not for the street! This famous Isky 400 Jr. grind camshaft is full race, competition only and is recommended only for the experienced flathead V8 racer.
Flatheads have a sound of there own stock.
When I was young what we did was pull the vacuum line off the wipers and cruise the hang out.
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Old 03-19-2015, 08:13 AM   #14
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Hi Jason, the amount of "space" needed to solve the issue is fairly easy to figure out??

Just shim the head equally all around until the valves clear, start with a smaller thickness shim. We do this occasionally on some higher-end builds using valve spring shims. You could use single sheets of newspaper (stacked), aluminum foil (also stacked), etc.

Also remember you will have the entire gasket thickness on your side! Below is a shot of some machined Edelbrock's, it wasn't for clearance, it was basically done to enlarge the chamber volumes some.

The other option is flycut the heads, also relatively easy. Nice to have an accurate amount though?

That valve lash is a bit on the loose side for me for a "streeter"!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I also agree with John's and the other posts above, cam is slightly on the large side. If you're looking for the "sound" Comp's new "Thumper Series" will deliver. I've listened to a couple now, they sound excellent.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Flathead Edel Hds Machined.JPG (83.8 KB, 191 views)

Last edited by GOSFAST; 03-19-2015 at 08:16 AM. Reason: Add
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Old 03-19-2015, 10:02 AM   #15
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

The problem with the 400jr in your application is that the engine is basically stock (if I'm reading your OP correctly) except for the cam. That's not really, as stated by everyone else, the application for this cam. It is intended for a bored and stroked (larger cubic inches) race type engine.
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Old 03-19-2015, 10:06 AM   #16
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Thanks everyone for the input.

I thought .018" was high also, I was thinking .014" based on what I read. I even called Isky to confirm and they said 'yes, .018 inch'.

I would hope they know what they are doing, do you think I should bring it down to .016"?

I want to see how this engine runs before just tossing the cam. I'll give it a shot, if it doesn't work out I will get a different cam.
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Old 03-19-2015, 10:44 AM   #17
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

No, do not deviate from the Isky specified clearance. Although .002 change isn't much the cam is ground with a "take-up" ramp designed for .018. If noise isn't a issue and if moderate miles of travel are planned the shortcomings won't bother you.
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Old 03-19-2015, 01:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

You obviously never read any threads of mine, because i definitely would NOT run a 400jr on the street. That's why I recommend the L-100. It has the same efective sound as the 400 jr, less lift, needs less spring pressure to operate. I asked you in your PM what springs you were using??
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Old 03-19-2015, 02:10 PM   #19
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Listen to the wise old heads. JWL and Ol Ron have futzed with flatheads all their lives, and if they recommend don't do it, trust me, don't do it. The first time you stall at the traffic lights, then get it started and have to use a lot of revs to take off, you WILL be cursing your decision. 400jr is for big inch flatties with lots of fuel flow, porting etc.
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Old 03-19-2015, 04:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Why ask the cam question you have already made the decision. You also don't want to change any of your decisions so carry on and live with the results.Don't say you weren't advised.

R
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Old 03-20-2015, 07:45 AM   #21
diiulio
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

You guys make it seem like once I run the engine with the cam there is no going back. I got it, you don't recommend the 400jr. Enough said. I have acknowledged this before and am doing it again. Am I still going to try the 400jr? Yes. Am I stubborn? No, but I already have it and it is in the block. Do I want to buy another cam and eat this one without even giving it a shot? No. If it is as bad as you say, I will change it out. Not the end of the world. Some things you have to experience yourself.


Do I appreciate your opinions? Yes, that is why I ask. If I hadn't already bought it and installed it I would not have bought it. I probably would have gone with the Max1 or L-100, but that isn't the case.

My original question was how to deal with the clearance issues, and that has been answered.

Ron, I can't remember what springs they are off the top of my head, but I'll check this weekend.

Again, thank you. I really do appreciate the knowledge and experience of the individuals on this forum.

Just think, the next guy asking for what cam to use in a mild street engine can be referenced here. I'll try to post back up my results if I ever get the project finished.
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Old 03-20-2015, 10:00 AM   #22
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

OK, lets take a look at the 400jr. There are avery few cams made for a short track race. Cam was designed back in the early 50's so the design doesn't use some of the modern technoligj. It has a very high lift rate, which is hard on lifters. Set the idle at 750/800 RPM and use a zink additive additive in the oil. For racing the spring pressure should be in the 75.85 Lb range. Cam will run in the 5000 rpm range with power. The major bennifet of the cam is max acceloraton from 2500 up. The biggest problem is lifter ware. Keep the spring pressure down to 65 lbs. I built an engine back in the early 90's with one and it ran across country 7 times, finely blew up with over 100 K on the engine. You will be pleased with the way it runs. I ran one in a stockcar for several years, lost the first one dur to lifter ware, second one lasted just fine with less spring pressure. You need a good quality lifter.
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Old 03-20-2015, 10:35 AM   #23
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

It will work fine
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Old 03-23-2015, 08:17 PM   #24
diiulio
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Ron, I have Isky 185-g springs.
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Old 03-23-2015, 10:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Those are pretty strong, you should have checked the installed height pressure, With stock valvs that's about 75 or better spring pressure, Plun the adjusters are all the way out on the liftes. However if you used chevy valves then the pressure is about right.
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Old 05-04-2015, 08:01 AM   #26
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OK, sorry for the hiatus, but I am getting back on it.
1. I put a head gasket on and no hitting of the valves. I tested them and my exhaust valve is closest on the top of it by just a little bit. I forget what the measurement was, but I will end up just having it machined a little bit.

What is the ideal clearance?



2. My installed height of valve springs is 2.165" to 2.185" across all of them.
A friend measured the Isky 185G for me and at 60# was 2.032 and at 100# was 1.900, a free length of 2.356". He also had a set of Zephyr springs and measured them at 60# at 2.056 and 100# at 1.900, which had a free length of 2.405.

I am thinking that they are very close and I can stick with my IskyG185. To get the 65# of resting pressure I would need to shim it.

Is 65# max or the ideal pressure?
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

???? The installed height sounds high, are they Chevy valves?? Where did you get them?
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:40 AM   #28
diiulio
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

I bought them from Speedway and what they sell as stock for a flathead. I can measure again and even throw a picture up.

Here is a picture of the clay on the valves.
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Actually, the 400 jr is a piss poor cam for just about anything except a lamp stand.

"Been in the cam business 60 years"
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Old 05-04-2015, 11:04 PM   #30
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
Actually, the 400 jr is a piss poor cam for just about anything except a lamp stand.

"Been in the cam business 60 years"
Could make a good tomato stake. "LOL"

R
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:53 PM   #31
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

put a 400jr cam in my rdst pu. have 4.44 rear grs w/columbia od linc grs. i like to just cruse around town etc. the 400jr cam was awful, was good if accelerating but jerks and bucks at lower rpm. quit driving it for a couple years, then took off the intake removed valve springs held valves up and pulled out the 400jr and put the stock 53 merc cam back in ,WOW car is a dream to drive now. OH1 anyone need a 400jr cam $100? building a 27T now w/flathead, going to use an AIRLEAK cam., valve to leak air into intake to make it lope at drive in and then close it and it runs great on road. used to take w/wiper hose off my 50 ford in 50's to get that sound, couldn't afford a hot cam.
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Old 05-06-2015, 08:55 AM   #32
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

No doubt.....kind'a cool to listen to a healthy-sounding idle while "posing" through the Dairy Freeze, but if it can't do the deed when called-on, then it's really not much better than a BS'r with a fake sock rolled-up in his britches. DD
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Old 05-06-2015, 09:17 AM   #33
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Default Re: Valves hitting heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
No doubt.....kind'a cool to listen to a healthy-sounding idle while "posing" through the Dairy Freeze, but if it can't do the deed when called-on, then it's really not much better than a BS'r with a fake sock rolled-up in his britches. DD
Now that would take some big b---s to do that. But back to the cam. I just installed an Isky Max 1 in my mostly stock 59AB. Small lope and runs great. Just my 2 cents.
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