Inquiring minds want to know-Throw out/clutch finger issue

[DICK SPADARO]

Ok I am trying to determine if there is an issue or not with these new style pressure plates. The new early Ford pressure plates with the non adjustable fingers have been on the market for a while now, I recently had a customer come in with an issue with a stiff clutch and this is what he discovered.

It appears that as the clutch is depressed and as the fingers rotate inward on the throw out bearing the length of the arm is contacting the end of the throw out collar and rubbing on it. Luckily the throw out collar is cast so it wears easily but it appears that there is an issue. When compared to an original adjustable arm pressure plate there is no interference and every thing is fine. The problem was corrected by trimming down the collar snout but this is aha-ok method.

1st picture L-R, is of worn hub snout and cast finger pressure plate, second picture is of original part index and third picture is back yard alteration. Note: The nuts under the throw out arms simulate the pressure plate being depressed.

Now my question is are there any other people who have just replaced their pressure plate with the cast finger design and having an issue with a stiff operating or noise when depressing the clutch with the engine running or is this an isolated problem?

[1931 flamingo]

Dick: Not to muddy the waters here, but why are the adjustable arms no longer avail?? Cost??
Paul in CT

[Hoop]

Dick,

Not with the cast fingers but same problem installing a diaphragm pressure plate.

There is a current thread by Joe Way over on the Model A side, https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1865, describing the issue with the diaphragm design.

The diaphragm PP was not intended specifically for our application and problems can be expected ... however, if the cast finger PP was designed as a flathead replacement, there are obviously spec problems.

Who is manufacturing these?

[Terry,OH]

I just replaced a pressure plate that had the forged fingers, and no counterweights. The pressure plate, clutch and throwout were new. The fingers of the PP hit the hub of the throwout and shavings were all over the flywheel, as in your photo Dick. The throwout would wobble on the hub, due to the damage. I believe the PP was Ford tractor. The passenger car needs the counterweights. At rest there is about 650# of pressure on the clutch, with the counterweights at RPM that increases to triple the original value, without the weights no increase. Plus the spacing of the fingers causing damage.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I can't address Dick's questions directly so this may be a bit off topic. My suggestion to anyone needing a clutch or pressure plate would be to get them from Fort Wayne Clutch. You can buy new or rebuilt directly from them or you can send them your original cores for rebuild. Quality work and products...plus "Made in the U.S.A."

[Cecil/WV]

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Good advise, John.

[DICK SPADARO]

Thanks for posting responses as I'd like to keep this to the top for a couple days for a wider sampling but please keep it to the issue no personal politics or sales pitches. DS

[frederic]

I do not know if this has anything to do with this topic but I am having problem with clutch "seems" to expand as engine gets hotter. Trans shifts fine when cold but as engine gets up to temp I cannot get the clutch to disengage properly and gear crashing results when stopped and trying to get into first gear. I suspect an aftermarket clutch and pp from previous owner but I am not versed on these things so well. Are these items being discussed aftermarket or original being used in different applications.

thanks

frederic

[rotorwrench]

Those fingers just flat look too long. It's like they were made for an 8BA type or other with a smaller input shaft diameter. There were different lengths for different applications. Perhaps they were put in by mistake by the manufacturer. I wonder who the manufacturer is?

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by DICK SPADARO

Thanks for posting responses as I'd like to keep this to the top for a couple days for a wider sampling but please keep it to the issue no personal politics or sales pitches. DS

OK Dick here is a bump to the top.
This is not meant to be a political statement or any type of sales pitch ad. It is a fact that the more cheap off shore after market parts you use on these old cars the more likelihood of having problems like your customer is now having with his c&pp....bottom line is make sure you buy good replacement parts to begin with. Junk is junk anyway you look at this situation.

PS...as others have asked...who was the manufacturer of this pp and what was the country of origin?? Curious minds would like to know that tidbit as well.

[36tudordeluxe]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Those fingers just flat look too long. It's like they were made for an 8BA type or other with a smaller input shaft diameter. There were different lengths for different applications. Perhaps they were put in by mistake by the manufacturer. I wonder who the manufacturer is?

I think "Rotor" is correct about the finger length being too long; I have the exact pressure plate Dick is referring to (yet uninstalled) and mine is intended for an 8BA; by the way, it's of Chinese manufacture with numbers 2505 and C 7346 on it. Probably? work for my application but am now thinking of getting one from Ft. Wayne Clutch.

[Chisel]

Dick the real question here is why are you as a highly respected parts supplier pushing these inferior Chinese parts? No matter what you do to these pressure plates fingers they are still junk!!! Chinese engineer Hong Dong Flu, you don't need adjustable fingers and counterweights those dumb Americans will buy anything. Adjustable fingers and counterweights were engineered as part of a design package that has been proven since the beginning.
Because of a time constraint, I bought one of these Chinese wonders, it was installed in the car, but the linkage would not adjust far enough to make it work. The thro-out bearing fell off the end of the transmission snout. Pulled the engine, heated and bend the fingers then shorten the length of the fingers. Put engine back in and adjusted the clutch. Two days later clutch starts to slip. Went to the barn and dug out a tried and true designed pressure plate and sent it to Fort Wayne Clutch and it came back like new, end of problem.

[32phil]

Hey Guys
Don't give Dick a hard time over the parts. It seems like everything you buy today, from kitchen utensils to car parts etc. is from China. Walk thru Loewes/Walmart and pay attention to where stuff is made it will give you a knot in your stomach. Buy American where you can EVEN if you pay more. OK back to car stuff......I don't know anything about pressure plates ........can't help here.

[ken ct]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

I can't address Dick's questions directly so this may be a bit off topic. My suggestion to anyone needing a clutch or pressure plate would be to get them from Fort Wayne Clutch. You can buy new or rebuilt directly from them or you can send them your original cores for rebuild. Quality work and products...plus "Made in the U.S.A."

Last i heard John FWC was out of cores with the adj. screws,so unless you send in a core to them with the screw adj your out of luck.You buy one of their cores w/o them.If thats the case i would scoure the swaps for a core with them to send in.Only what ive heard.ken ct.

[Rowdy]

Which of the 3 styles of V8 clutch PP's are we talking about? Likely I have afew counterweightd cores I can sell.

[DICK SPADARO]

Whoa there Chisel don't shoot the messenger, I'm not pushing these parts on anyone. I am trying to determine if there is an issue. What gets me is that the first thing that comes up is that you bust me for promoting the product, I know its an import part, I sell an original unit but it costs more. Product price US vs import is a whole new argument and not really the topic I'm working on.

I'm not the importer nor have even determined who is as well as the manufacturer yet. I'm trying to solve an issue that came up with some detective work and and you are sort of accusing me of being part of the problem and I don't appreciate it.

My question to you Chisel, if you had a problem did you take it to the vendor you bought the pressure plate from and did they help you or did you just bitch that it was junk while the real reason behind the part purchase was a cheaper price. I cannot trouble shoot your issue as I dont know the installation particulars but bending two out of three fingers something is wrong.

Anyway this post was to gather information as well as point out some issues to followers, its not intended to be this never ending whine about import products. If you are going to whine don't respond. All I want to do is find out if this issue is still going on. If it's a an isolated incident then I have to examine how the customer used or installed the part. If it is an on going problem then the consumer needs to know and that is what I am doing. Again if you have had any issue similar to the post question please take time and respond. Thanks DS

[Fordors]

If adjuster screws are in short supply as ken ct has said you might consider Surge Friction in South Holland,IL. Long time clutch builder, well versed in antiques, late models, industrial, trucks, and racing applications.

[BobM]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

I can't address Dick's questions directly so this may be a bit off topic. My suggestion to anyone needing a clutch or pressure plate would be to get them from Fort Wayne Clutch. You can buy new or rebuilt directly from them or you can send them your original cores for rebuild. Quality work and products...plus "Made in the U.S.A."

Can they also supply a Made in the U.S.A. throwout bearing?

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by BobM

Can they also supply a Made in the U.S.A. throwout bearing?

Bob, I do not know if FWC can supply a 'Made in the USA' throw out bearing. I didn't think to ask the last time I talked to them since I already have a new TOB for the rebuilt c&pp that will be going in my '35 5W Coupe. You could call them @ 1-260-4'84-8505 or FAX them @ 1-260-484-8605. If I get time on Monday I will call them on that. Others here would probably like to know as well. I believe i read a post here that said either Mac VanPelt or Charlie, ny had 'made in the USA' TOB's. Not sure that is still true though.

[BobM]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Bob, I do not know if FWC can supply a 'Made in the USA' throw out bearing. I didn't think to ask the last time I talked to them since I already have a new TOB for the rebuilt c&pp that will be going in my '35 5W Coupe. You could call them @ 1-260-4'84-8505 or FAX them @ 1-260-484-8605. If I get time on Monday I will call them on that. Others here would probably like to know as well. I believe i read a post here that said either Mac VanPelt or Charlie, ny had 'made in the USA' TOB's. Not sure that is still true though.

Thanks for responding John, will use the info. when I order the TOB. Bob

[BobM]

Originally Posted by ken ct

Last i heard John FWC was out of cores with the adj. screws,so unless you send in a core to them with the screw adj your out of luck.You buy one of their cores w/o them.If thats the case i would scoure the swaps for a core with them to send in.Only what ive heard.ken ct.

Just spoke to Scott FWC and says they have a new batch of early Ford pressure plates.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by BobM

Just spoke to Scott FWC and says they have a new batch of early Ford pressure plates.

Did you ask him if they have Made in the U.S.A. throw out bearings?

[Straightpipes]

Dick, I appreciate your attempt to gather information on this potential problem. There is a guy up here having throwout bearing noise in a 47 Ford. The clutch was assembled 3 months ago with one that he got from Lou. He is pulling the engine this week and I'll get a good look at it. I put an inspection scope in there but couldn't see it well enough to identify a problem. Butch

[russcc]

If you are looking for a USA made TOB, I suggest calling Fred Wilner at South Side Obsolete in Faribault MN. If there are any US ones, Fred would likley have them.

[BobM]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Did you ask him if they have Made in the U.S.A. throw out bearings?

John, didn't find out about the t/o bearings as I have to call back tomorrow as they want to be sure that we get the right p/p to match the t/o bearing; it was after closing when I called. Will let you know about Made in U.S.A. t/o's.

[37fordpickup]

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Sent my pp and cluth to FWC right after Christmas for rebuild and they shipped it back out the same day. When I asked if they also had TO bearings the answer was negative. I have a very good looking setup now and I almost hate to install the tranny and cover it all up.

[Terry,OH]

28-48 Pilot Bearing B-7609 Balkamp 3-4100, NCH 6203 2NSE9C3, KOYO 6203RS

28-48 Throwout Bearing 78-7580 Federal Mogul, BCA 2065

[Hoop]

"Attention Wal-Mart shoppers .... we have a Blue Light Special in the throw out bearing section."

Consider this.

Are high quality bearings only made in the USA?

Some of the best performing bearings go into ... Asian automobiles and trucks ... into European automobiles and trucks.

Do the Asian and European car makers insist on USA bearings?

... Try imagining what it would be like to attempt to sell an American bearing in Japan.

Problem is that Americans have developed a reputation for being "Wal-Mart shoppers."

China can produce anything in any quantity and any quality. Why are we seeing cheap throw out bearings?

... Come on. You know the answer.

(Surprising how many used, old T.O. bearings are still good.)

[jerry grayson]

HOOP, ditto on the good used TO bearings. I keep all the used ones along with the used U-Joints.

[Straightpipes]

Ha Hoop, You have a point. I put 200,000 on a Nissan pickup and never changed the clutch.......

The problem with imported parts is that the importer accepts the crap and the buyers are programmed to accept inferior products. Years ago folks demanded quality.

[barnfind08]

I only have 600 throw-out bearings u.s.a. left at the moment when they are gone they are gone. These were from the u.s. government about 30 years ago. My address and phone number is on my partial website southside obsolete.com the cost is 24.00 plus 6.00 postage.

[rickmass]

This might not be the right post but does any one know how to gease the throw bearings on a 1934 ford pickup with a 59ab motor.Tank,s Rickmass

[revenski]

I would like to bring this post back into an active status. I have a ’38 one ton 4 speed with an 11” inch clutch. I am doing a complete ground up restoration, and just received a “New” replacement clutch and pressure plate. My concern is that there are differences between the parts which I removed from the truck and the new parts that I received. Before I go any further, the old parts were badly rusted and the truck probably hasn’t run for decades.

One of the differences that I see is that the clutch release levers are slightly longer and do not have any adjustment screws. The discussion in this thread provides some thought on this issue. My other concerns focus on differences between the old clutch plate and the new replacement. I see 3 differences right off: 1) the splined hub on the old part is 1 5/8” long or high and the hub on the new part is only 1 1/16”; 2) there are only 5 larger damper springs on the new plate as opposed to 8 smaller springs on the old plate; and 3) the total thickness of the clutch disk with linings for the new plate is 11/32” as opposed to 7/16”.

Am I asking for troubles down the road if I use these “new” replacement parts, can I proceed safely with these parts, should I consider modifications or other options? Once I get my tonner going, I would prefer not to find the need to replace the clutch and pressure plate because of problematic variations in design. Your additional insights would be greatly appreciated.

[JM 35 Sedan]

You may want to consider finding good original 11" clutch and pressure plate cores and send them to Ft. Wayne Clutch for rebuild. I don't trust the origin and quality of the new replacement C&PP's being sold today.

[wingerdinger]

As long as the thread is revitalized, I am going to respond. It seems you can't really get to the root of the problem without getting brand specific.
I replaced the clutch and pressure plate on my `35 Big Truck, 11".
My old one had the adjustable fingers. The new one has longer fingers, but the clutch and pressure plate came as a 'kit', with a new pilot bearing, and a new throwout bearing. The throwout bearing has the working surface all the way to inside, with no protruding hub at all.. problem solved.
I can't find my paperwork, but this kit was bought at a local auto parts store, and it claimed to be American made.
Without any previous knowledge or experience, I made my purchase decision based on the fact that sometimes there are improvements in design over original design, and I was very interested in getting away from the hard push of the original clutch.

[revenski]

I did purchase the clutch, pressure plate and bearings as a kit, and it appears to me that the TOB may mesh with the clutch release levers without a problem, but I'm not certain with what I read here. I'm still wondering about the clutch variations.

[rotorwrench]

I don't know if any company manufactures a "NEW" Long type clutch that is made like the OEM Borg Warner parts were back in the day. Personally, I gravitate towards "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. I send all my old OEM types to Ft Wayne Clutch too. Their turn around is quick and quality is excellent.

The new stuff might work fine but I've heard more than one problem story the last couple of years. The 11-inch clutch has some strong springs originally but with the advent of better Marcel sping facings in the clutch disk stack, the need for heavier springs is not as necessary as it once was but I still like the flyweights of the early design. Those flyweights hold a lot better tension on the disk at higher RPMs and decrease the load on the clutch pedal.

[Fordors]

The marcel is used in some discs only to provide a softer engagement of the clutch. As it is flattened out the wavy marcel spring cushions the engagement and will have no effect on the static load of the pressure plate. If you use a disc with a marcel on an application that did not have one before keep in mind that you will need more throw out bearing travel to compensate for the marcel springing back to it's relaxed state.

[revenski]

The original clutch had a Marcel spring as does the new clutch. The difference here is that the old clutch had a solid disk from the center hub to the outer edge. The replacement does not have this solid disk. I’m doing a little more reading and am learning a little more about clutch design. The damper springs in the old clutch and drive limit pins allowed for much less travel than the damper springs and limit pins in the new clutch. I’m sensing that the increased travel is a good thing for comfort. As a side note, this truck is being restored stock as much as makes sense.

[expavr]

"As a side note, this truck is being restored stock as much as makes sense." Food for thought if you're still undecided. When I restored the tonner I changed from the 11" clutch to a 10" clutch which makes a difference if you're planning to use the 4 speed trans and do much driving. The double clutch action in traffic can be a pain with the heavier springs. The change involved re-drilling the flywheel for the 10" clutch.

[49r]

I bought an 11 inch pressure plate from Macs on the assurance that it was USA made. The 3 fingers were too long. An angle grinder fixed that and the clutch works fine.

[revenski]

Thank you for all of the responses. I'd like to know what other experiences anyone has had.