Anti-sieze on head nuts- yes or no?

[66miles]

I'm about to install new head gaskets and retorque the heads on an old 24-stud, using the existing head-studs. Is it a good idea to use an anti-sieze compound to aid in removal if required in the future? I'm also told that it allows the correct torque to be "applied" to the heads without over-stressing those tired old studs. The product I was going to use is Penrite copper-eze. I'd be interested to know what the prevailing thought is on this before I go ahead.

[Brian]

I use anti-seize compound on just about everything, head studs included.

[66miles]

Thanks Brian. That's good enough for me then. I'll be doing the job in a couple days. What do you use, and have you tried this Penrite Copper-eze?

[joe 1950]

yes its ok, I use neverzieze by permatex ,its like putting new elastic in an old pair of panties, the old girls just love it

[Jack E/NJ]

Just make sure you re-torque those headnuts "often" till they settle at 45 ft-lbs.

Jack E/NJ

[66miles]

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Thanks Joe n Jack. Joe, thats a great quote!

[hardtimes]

Yes, I ONLY use anti-seize on the end of the head studs that go into block and in the block hole. Just don't put so much in that a 'hydraulic' condition is created , if the hole has a bottom. If the stud hole is open to the water jacket, some permatex 2 in the hole first to hold back water/rust. Antiseize helps when it comes time to take things apart again. The stud only HOLDS the stud secure in block. Torque is only gained when stud nut clamps head to block.

I would NOT use lube of any kind on clamping/torqueing end..i.e.- head nut !

[66miles]

Very well put hardtimes. When I pulled the heads, some nuts came off with prob less than 40lbs (I used a torqewrench set at 60 to back em off). A couple of others made that scary CRACK sound before they moved, and I wound the wrench up to 70 to get those ones. I'd sure hate to leave half a stud in the block, or even worse, bring the stud out with nothing but a ragged hole left in the block!

[66miles]

Hardtimes. I just read your thread on the broken studs. That's scary stuff! If I knew I could get em out with no probs, I'd remove the studs and go to bolts. I'd be afraid though that instead of 38 good and 4 broken, I'd end up with 38 broken and 10 good. (I've got 48 of the things to get out). I just dont like those kind of odds! Good for you getting your job sorted just the same.

[GEOFFNZ]

Like you say ,if the studs are OK might pay to stick with them.You can get more even torque by running a 7/16 UNF die nut over the top threads to remove burrs etc.and buy a new set of nuts and washers. Available and cheap from any good NZ fastener retailer.Cheers, Geoff.

[66miles]

Real good advice geoff. Way I see it, tryin to get something out of a hole it's lived in for more than 60 years, is too much like asking for trouble. Someone said once, "If it aint broke then stop fixin it".

[ford3]

with the risk of being called an idiot, oiled or greast bolts or nuts do not require as much torque as a dry bolt or nut, i dont know how to post pics on here but if some one is willing that knows how i will send them a file showing dry and oiled torque specs [email protected] , this is where im at send me your email address and i will send it to you

[Jack E/NJ]

You mean this picture? From an article that says you should never, never, never, ever, ever, ever use anti-sieze when torqueing a nut & bolt. Never, ever! It's on the internet so it must be true?

http://benmlee.com/4Runner/threads/threads.htm

Jack E/NJ

[ford3]

lol no its from a quality bolt and nut manufactor, and its not the one in your post

[Karl Wolf]

Originally Posted by GEOFFNZ

Like you say ,if the studs are OK might pay to stick with them.You can get more even torque by running a 7/16 UNF die nut over the top threads to remove burrs etc.and buy a new set of nuts and washers. Available and cheap from any good NZ fastener retailer.Cheers, Geoff.

I run a tap through the old nuts. Also. Not just cause I'm cheap- there are non for sale through hardware outlets I would use...

I use anti seize on the nut and where it contacts the head... And, when I retorque, I do each nut one by loosening it just a tad and then going to the torque. Tried this using a pencil to mark the position and it makes a difference, about 1/8th turn or so...

Karl

[66miles]

Anything that gets more of that torque down onto that head where it's needed while putting less stress on those tired old studs has got to be a good thing right?

[Jack E/NJ]

ford3>>>lol no its from a quality bolt and nut manufactor, and its not the one in your post >>>

A slight delay but this is the chart that ford3 wanted to post.

Jack E/NJ

[ford3]

thanks jack, i can unscrew the cap off a beer bottle just fine, but posting a pic on here i may as well build a rocket ship, i might be able to do that

[66miles]

Meantime. I got thos heads down to 55lbs with a smear of copper anti-freeze on both stud AND nut. Seems like I will have to re-torque at regular intervals over the next couple hours (then days of running). Once that stuff is on there lubricating those old threads, it seems a little more torque can be applied (up to the maker's spec) in very small increments over time, as there is no longer the resistance of binding threads to overcome. As some have suggested, overtorque can STRETCH a thread (which will not happen here), as I am not exceeding the prescribed torque, but what (I reason) could happen with a stud that is binding due to corrosion, is too much TWISTING of the stud could cause it to SHEAR at the joint between stud and block. Obviously a tragedy when this happens!

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone,

Well, It undoubtedly makes it easy to take apart later, but it can also change the tightening values and the grounding effects as the anti-sieze is an insulator.

Modern manufacturers sometimes caution against using it on spark plugs because it inhibits grounding. If a head gasket is an insulator (some are, yes?), then the stud to head connection is the only thing a spark plug could use to get ground, eh?

Since I was a kid in the early seventies Dad and I have been working on emptying a coke-can sized container of the silver stuff and it doesn't seem like we made any kind of a dent.

At work we have some silver and some copper stuff and the copper is what I choose when I'm there.

A very little can go a long way, especially when it goes from your finger to the nose to the shirt to the underwear...

-VT/JeffH

[Tinker]

Loctite mentions a formula for torque value adjustment with thread lubricant (anti-sieze). Snug is good...

http://www.henkel.mx/mxe/content_dat...Oantiseize.pdf

[swoopNZ]

It's known as " friction co-efficient "in the Oilfield anyway
Used for torque values when making up casing with lubricant applied to it.

[LSJUNIPER]

Wish I saw this before yesterday. Was just putting new stud nuts on my 39 flathead. On one side everything went well, started at 15lbs then 30lbs and ended at a torque of 45lbs. On the other side the 6th nut stripped on the stud. Now the nut just spins on the stud. I used a little anti seize on the theads. I sure hope it is just the nut and the stud that stripped and not the block thread. Later

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

Hi Everyone,

Well, It undoubtedly makes it easy to take apart later, but it can also change the tightening values and the grounding effects as the anti-sieze is an insulator.

Modern manufacturers sometimes caution against using it on spark plugs because it inhibits grounding.
-VT/JeffH

Jeff, do you have a link that explains that?

My dad and I always put AntiSieze on battery posts on our tractors to stop corrosion, we never noticed an issue.

Now this was the "silver colored" AS...maybe a difference?

[OHV DeLuxe]

Based on experience with aircraft jet engines and stationary gas turbines where dry threads are specified. I prefer to stay wth dry threads on the torque side. The simple explaination is that with lubrication, basicly anything wet, you do away with the friction which is actualy part of the specified torque of the threaded connection. It will work as a brake under torquing, and also later prevent unwanted loosening. The first piont MIGHT prevent actually overtorquing the threads with the torque meant for dry threads and a certain friction surface under nut and/or washer. This is specially true when subject to continious on/off and retorque cycluses under extreme condition ofcourse, but the theory is still the same. With the need for sealing threads in the UNC end towards water i use permatex, and with exhaust studs i use anti sieze though, as my cars are not planes. Yet.

[Bassman/NZ]

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Reading every post in this thread highlights two contentious areas. First off... many flathead people whose opinions and knowledge I greatly respect are advocating a head nut torque of 45 lbs, yet all the old manuals, the Ron Bishop book etc, etc are stating 55lbs.
Secondly.... the same people are advocating a thin smear of oil under the nut to prevent galling against the head, yet other, even within this thread, are advocating dry assembly.
Personally I put Permatex anti-seize on my studs, but not on the threads, and a tiny smear of oil on the bottom of the nuts. I have three heli-coiled studs and they work perfectly, in case anyone wants to know.

[Torchie]

[QUOTE=Bassman/NZ;826907]Reading every post in this thread highlights two contentious areas. First off... many flathead people whose opinions and knowledge I greatly respect are advocating a head nut torque of 45 lbs, yet all the old manuals, the Ron Bishop book etc, etc are stating 55lbs.

I was always told 45 lbs for aluminum(aftermarket finned style) heads. And 55 lbs for stock cast iron. Lets see what others say.
Torchie.

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone, Mike B, Post #24, here's something from NGK, I didn't see any other manufacturers, but I didn't look hard. This is in reference to modern aluminum heads.

Interesting language on the last paragraph of the first page, sounds like it's from the marketing department, not the tech guys.

"NGK recommends only using spark plugs with metal plating on all aluminum head applications to prevent damage to the head and plug. Metal shell plating acts as a “lubricant” which breaks away from the main body of the spark plug during removal, preventing damage to the spark plug and or threads in the cylinder head."

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-...1antisieze.pdf

-VT/JeffH

[Mike B]

Thanks Jeff...for sure I understand the ability to over tighten things applied with anti seize,

I guess I over quoted you though, my question was more to the "grounding effects" of using AS.

I know that using teflon tape can sometimes inhibit continuity, but hadn't heard that AS could as well.

[VeryTangled]

Hi Mike B, It's likely that I misunderstood why NGK was giving the recommendation. I can't say that I have any facts to back up my earlier statement, likely it was hot air!

-VT/JeffH

[Mike B]

All good Jeff!

Whew..

[Fordors]

Just to expand on the non-conductor issue, there is or was at least, an anti-seize that was mica based. I have a one pound tin of it and I think it is from the '50's. It has specification AN-VV-C-566, Amendment 1 on the can. On the back is the following notation: "This material, being a non-conductor and possessing a high heat resistance is particularly suitable for use on aircraft engine spark plugs. Due to it's electrical insulating properties, however, it should not be used where mating parts are required to be in good electrical contact."
Seems contradictory, how about the grounding lost if this stuff is a non-conductor?
As far as other anti-seize goes most are molybdenum or copper based and are a conductor.

[john in illinois]

As far as conducting,when I worked at a car repair shop,we started using silver antseize on battery terminals when we did a tune up. We had a lot of failures and promptly stopped.

I think the mica insulating anti seize would be used on the shielded wire harness that screws on to the spark plugs in aircraft.

John

[Rocketsled]

Top threads on a stud should be dry, or have a film of very light oil only. Generally, if a lubricant or anti-seize is used then de-rate the torque applied by 15%.
Use a silicone compound, or paste on battery terminals. 'Dielectric grease' is OK, because it is actually a compound, not a bearing grease.

[66miles]

Rocketsled. First answer I have read yet that states in plain english " de-rate torque by 15%" when a lubricant (which I guess is what AS is when it comes down to it) is applied. That means the 55lbs I torqued my cast iron head to with AS is 15% too high. 45-50 would've been better. Too late now though cos the heads are down, and I sure ain't messing with them again!

[Jack E/NJ]

66miles>>>I sure ain't messing with them again>>>

Sure you is! Good practice says you gotta re-torque them a few times after running it. Just make sure they don't go below 45 ft-lbs. And don't go cranking them above either. You'll be fine.

Jack E/NJ

[cmbrucew]

I remember one of the never seize products I used stated "like a million tiny ball bearings".
We used a lot of the product for lots of applications, and do not remember any broken studs, or stripped threads due to its use.
The lifers at Kaiser cement did not approve of its use there. Said the cement dust would set up when in contact with Never Seize.
I personally never saw evidence to support the claim.

Bruce

Works good
Lasts long time

[Bassman/NZ]

So is modern wisdom advocating 45lbs for cast iron heads? Why does the old literature state 55lbs?

[Rocketsled]

Bruce,
The folks at plants that processed Calcium Carbonate showed me that RTV silicone worked better than any anti-seize on their nut and bolt fasteners. The nut, and the bolt head would be eaten away, but inside was perfect and was easy to take apart. So, they started coating the bolt heads and nuts with RTV, too, and solved their corrosion problem completely! Not only that, but the RTV worked like a mild threadlocker.

[Rocketsled]

Most common anti-seize compounds are not lubricants, as they only prevent galling. Some of the high tech ones will be labeled as a lubricating paste.

[forty-niner]

I call it Tin Man because the silver stuff seems to get all over me once you get the top off the can