UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

[TinCup]

UPDATE*******************************
I spent the week going thru several items trying to nail down my hot temps. I spent some time talking to Gary at Bergs and Lee at Brassworks radiators. Both recommended running distilled water and a rust inhibitor vs my standard 50-50 mix. So I reset the point gap which was around 19 back to 20, retimed and drained the antifreeze mix and filled it with just water and water wetter. Took it out this morning with temps in the high 70's and drove about 10 miles at 40-45 mph. Temps stayed below 180. Driving back later in the day with temps around 95 car temps jumped to 180 quickly and settled in around the 195 mark. I installed a new SW temp gauge that I had calibrated using a candy thermometer so I could trust the readings. The motormeter never got to the bottom line of what it calls summer operating temp. This is consistent with what it was doing with my 50-50 mix. So cool weather no problems, hot weather I am really pushing the outside of the envelope. Neither Bergs or Brassworks would say whether a 10 fin or a 3 core radiatior would help my situation.
The pic below is a little blurry but you can see I am doing about 40 mph and temps are between 190-200



I had my radiator overflow tube repaired 6 years ago the shop told me that alot of the fins were separated and that it needed to be rodded out. While it ran a little warm it never got over 190. Took a nice long trip a couple of weeks ago and running between 45-50mph the temps jumped up well over 220. When I backed the speeds off it cooled down. Remembering what the shop said I replaced the radiator with a new 8fin Brassworks rad. Took it out today and same result. The only change to this motor is the HC head I installed early in the spring.

I searched all through the forum and went through the culprits. Checked timing, good flow at the top of the radiator. When I pulled into the drive way the temp gauge showed 200 and the motometer was at the top of the normal driving limit line. Using infrared themometer the top of the radiator tank was 220 and the bottom of the radiator was 150-160.

Running a mix of 50/50.

[Bill Lee/Virginia]

I had the same issue when I installed a 6 to 1 Winfield cylinder head. I found that my timing was too retarded for the high compression head. I avanced the timing to 5 degrees and my engine cooled back to nornal even during these hot 100 F temperature days. Luck.

Bill Lee/Virginia Peninsula

[gweilbaker]

Run it at night and look at the exhaust manifold, if it's glowing red either you're running lean or too retarded.

GW

[Tom Endy]

I am of the opinion that the number of rows of tubes in the radiator core is more important than the fins per inch specification. I bought a radiator a few years ago from one of the more popular radiator vendors that was specified at 10 fins per inch. I had the same problem you are describing. Around town it was fine. Climbing a grade or out in the desert it boiled over.

I thought the tubes may have become plugged from rust in the engine. I took the radiator to a radiator shop to have it rodded out. When they pulled the tanks off the tubes were not plugged, but there was only two rows of tubes.

I had the core replaced with a four row core and now the temp gauge stays locked on 160 (the thermostat setting) no matter where I travel.

I think the best solution to Model A radiators is to take an original radiator to a shop that speaks Model A and have them install a four row core.

Tom Endy

[Fred]

You pay for what you get, BERGS & NO PROBLEMS...

[Purdy Swoft]

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A high compression head should make it run cooler.

[Joop]

If you time it correct.

[Purdy Swoft]

Usually the timing IS the problem. I think trying to time by the points and the fact that you've really got to know on which side that the backlash has to be on causes the problem.

[Paul from Maine]

Could be a blown head gasket or lots of crud and rust in the water jackets if it is not the timing. Last time I had the head off my motor I pulled a coffee cup full of rust out of the water jackets with a magnet on a telescopic rod. A year later I had the engine rebuilt and the rebuilder told me the rear water jackets were still full of crud when he disassembled the motor. Even so, I had not had any cooling problems with my Brassworks radiator. In fact I had to put a thermostat in the upper hose to get the temp above 135 despite all the crud in my water jackets. If the upper part of the radiator is 220 and the bottom 150, then the radiator is doing its job. It must be something besides the radiator.

[Purdy Swoft]

I really think that it doesn't need to be 220 or 190 degrees anywhere for any length of time. could be head gasket, cracked head, or block. It could be caused by improper use of the spark lever. I hear a lot of guys saying that they are driving with the spark lever half way up the quadrant. I'm not trying to make anybody mad or get in an arguement but running with the spark that far retarded is just not right. It could be caused by running too lean. maybe a vacume leak or could it be the gav setting?

[TinCup]

One of the hard things to nail down is that before we did the valve job and added the HC head 40MPH was the top of the scale.

I spoke to a couple of club guys tonight at dinner and they echoed a lot of what I am hearing here. We are going to go through the list tomorrow and see if we can identify the issue. After warm up I usually close the GAV and at speed I run with the advance half way down.

[TinCup]

Tom,
If the radiator had not been given to me I would had gone a different direction. I was looking at a 3 row berg. In installing the 2 row their isn't very much clearance I can't imagine how tight it would be with a 4 row.

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

I am of the opinion that the number of rows of tubes in the radiator core is more important than the fins per inch specification. I bought a radiator a few years ago from one of the more popular radiator vendors that was specified at 10 fins per inch. I had the same problem you are describing. Around town it was fine. Climbing a grade or out in the desert it boiled over.

I thought the tubes may have become plugged from rust in the engine. I took the radiator to a radiator shop to have it rodded out. When they pulled the tanks off the tubes were not plugged, but there was only two rows of tubes.

I had the core replaced with a four row core and now the temp gauge stays locked on 160 (the thermostat setting) no matter where I travel.

I think the best solution to Model A radiators is to take an original radiator to a shop that speaks Model A and have them install a four row core.

Tom Endy

[TinCup]

30degress of dwell at 2000rpm. About 5degrees retarded.

Originally Posted by Joop

If you time it correct.

[sonny30coupe]

I too was wondering if I would have any room for a 4 row. It is pretty close under that hood now.

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by TinCup

30degress of dwell at 2000rpm. About 5degrees retarded.

Now that you have given us some hard facts, I would say your point gap is too wide and your timing is retarded, even for a HC head.

People don't normally set their points on an A by dwell. But if I did, I would set it closer to 45 degrees, not 30. 30* is typical for an 8-cyl engine. Better to set by feeler gauge thickness of .017" to .020". After you do that, just for yucks, you could read out what the dwell is (for future reference). Dwell should not vary with RPM; if it does, you have a problem with your distributor. Always set point gap or dwell before timing.

Second, Henry timed these engines at TDC at the timing mark with the lever fully up. Full advance on the lever was 40 crank degrees of advance. You are starting out at -5 degrees and only advancing the lever 1/2 way, or 20 degrees, so your final advance is only ~15* BTDC. That is not enough. You should shoot for closer to 30*, which means if you are starting at 5* retarded, you need to advance the lever almost the full swing. Moving the lever all the way to the bottom of the quadrant would result in final timing of ~35* BTDC (perhaps a bit too much for the HC head, but try it and see what your temperature does -- you can always back it off a bit with the lever).

If you can tell us you are at 5 deg. retarded initially, then that means you have a timing light and scale on the engine. Good. Get the dwell set closer to 45* first, and then set the initial timing to where you want it. (Why not TDC, like Henry did?) Anyway, after doing that, start engine and see where you have to put the timing lever to get 30* of advance. That's where you want to run with it.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by TinCup

The only change to this motor is the HC head I installed early in the spring. .

Based of this add my name to the timing problem camp.

Due to greater effeciency in the burning of the fuel an HC head actually runs cooler than a stock head.

When someone tells me that the over heating started after replacing a head the first thing that pops into my head is timing, next is that the use of the timing lever is different with the HC head as opposed to a stock head. (You don't lower the lever as much). After those two things I suggest a gasket problem.

[TinCup]

UPDATE!
First things first.
New Brassworks 8fin 2 core radiator.
Temps for today in OKC 105.
We went through the points and the timing. Points at .19 timing was a little advanced at 10 degrees. Reset to -5 fully retarded 35 fully advanced. Drove about 4 miles at 40-45mph temp stayed just south of the 190 mark on my temp gauge. As soon as I pulled into my driveway and shut if off it jumped passed 220. Nothing out the overflow. No bubbles in the top tank to indicate blown head gasket or vapor out the exhaust. With these temps can I keep it cool or am I fighting a losing battle.

[Mike V. Florida]

My car temp also jumps up when I shut her down. No cooling air through the radiator so one would think the temp would rise.

[Jim/GA]

Put the 50/50 mix in some empty jugs for use in the winter and switch to pure water with a couple of cans of anti-rust.

The specific heat of water is 25% greater than that of 50-50 antifreeze. For the same heat output from the engine, the water temperature increase will be 20% less. That's about the best you are going to do.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by TinCup

UPDATE!
First things first.
New Brassworks 8fin 2 core radiator.
Temps for today in OKC 105.
We went through the points and the timing. Points at .19 timing was a little advanced at 10 degrees. Reset to -5 fully retarded 35 fully advanced. Drove about 4 miles at 40-45mph temp stayed just south of the 190 mark on my temp gauge. As soon as I pulled into my driveway and shut if off it jumped passed 220. Nothing out the overflow. No bubbles in the top tank to indicate blown head gasket or vapor out the exhaust. With these temps can I keep it cool or am I fighting a losing battle.

That sounds about right to me, and I don't see anything that needs to be fixed. Antifreeze will raise the boiling point of the coolant.

[1931 flamingo]

IMO there's something still wrong here. NEW radiator and temps still that high? There must be a ton of crud in that block and/or blocked passages or timing marks not lined up. How's the waterpump? Is it possible the water is moving thru the rad too fast to cool down. I don't think I would be comfortable running at 190. JMO
Paul in CT

[Purdy Swoft]

One thing for sure, its not a modern car and you don't try to time it that way. Model a's were not suppose to run on 50-50 antifreeze, it will run much cooler on plain water, 190 degrees is danger zone on my temperature guage this was all discussed on another thread and ignored. I think that unless you are running a model B carburetor you shouldn't be driving with the gav closed. Running with a too lean mix does contribute to overheating. I've owned driven and timed model A's since I was a kid. I time by the timing pin and the position of the rotor tip. My cars run fairly cool and have plenty of pep. I still have my first model A and it still has the same babbit that came with it when it left the factory so my timing must not be too bad. I find that it is easier to teach a 12 year old how to set the timing on a model A than it is a grown up that thinks he already knows what he is doing.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

That sounds about right to me, and I don't see anything that needs to be fixed. Antifreeze will raise the boiling point of the coolant.

I agree with Tom.

My experience is very similar to yours. New Brassworks radiator on new rebuild with 5.9 head, 160-degree thermostat. Temp in the 180's on a hot Michigan day (90's). Don't know why it doesn't hold at 160, but as long as it doesn't overflow, no problem. Could be the difference between water and antifreeze--sounds far-fetched to me but I have no other ideas.

Modern cars are thermostatted to run at 190 or higher. It hurts nothing, keeps the oil cleaner, and increases efficiency. As long as it doesn't boil over.

I don't understand all of the recommendations to advance timing. My understanding is that hich compression heads need less advance. Winfield hc heads had a special block that was used to offset-retard the timing.

Steve

[Purdy Swoft]

Antifreeze raises the boiling point. If a model A is running 190 degrees it is running hot. 212 degrees is the boiling point of water so the fact that antifreeze lowers the boiling point doesn't really pertain. Modern cars with pressurized cooling systems that prevent the coolant from exiting via the overflow tube run at higher temperatures than the model A was designed to run. model A cooling systems are primitave as compaired to modern cars that were designed to run at higher temperatures . Model A heads only have fourteen head bolts-studs and are known to teeter on the block on every compression stroke, not so with modern cars and that is one reason that so many model A's develope head gasket problems.

Timing, I have three model A's running with 5.9 heads and have another with an F3 head and have ran other model A engines with heart shaped combustion chambers so I do have some real world experience with high compression heads. Higher compression does need less advanced timing. I have found it easier to set the timing with less initial advance at the rotor tip than having to constantly fiddle with the spark lever. The way that I do this is when the timing pin drops into place is to lock down the dist cam just before the trailing edge of the rotor tip aligns with the contact in the cap with NO clockwise backlash rotation. counter clockwise rotation doesn't effect timing. This applies to higher compression heads and I run at speed with the spark lever at full advance. I dont lug my engines at any speed. I usually try to keep the momentum built up. when driving on the highway I like to keep speeds of at least 50 mph. This helps on the hills and keeps plenty of cooling air flowing through the fins of the radiator. Creepy take offs and running at speeds that the engine lugs on hills to the point that the engine knocks isn't helping save the engine. That is not to say that the spark lever can't be used when needed. I set my points at .022 this way you won't have to reset the points as soon when the points block wears down and my cars perform well at this setting.

I once ran a light duty two row radiator that wouldn't cool a good tight engine, this was not an 8 fin radiator. I have never heard of an 8 fin two row radiator. are you sure that you are running a brassworks radiator?

[mrtexas]

I'd time it +5 full up. It should still start good. Then while going down the road, advance the timing until you hear pinging, then back off. Then you can be sure to have enough advance. Try running 25% antifreeze. Should still be enough in OK to prevent freezing and will have better heat transfer.

Did you look to set the timing pin? Some cam gears have a very small indent that makes setting by touch iffy. I look and then paint a white mark on the indent as well.

[TinCup]

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I just got back from a get together with the Tulsa, Ok. Mafca chapter. Their were over 30 cars there and along with some great food their was also great dialog. Because I didn't want to take a 200 mile trip with a suspect car I drove my modern car but paid attention to the 6 cars that did make the trip. Day was cooler than we have been having and all cars ran 170-190 the whole trip. Only one of the cars was running water the other 50-50. The two cars with 10 fin 3 row radiators ran the coolest. While all the cars with 2 row radiators that were 8 fin ran the warmest. A couple of lurkers had read my post and recognized my car.
They asked if the problem had been solved and I told them no. Like the responses here everyone suggested timing.

Purdy I re-checked the radiator and it's not 8 fin its only 7. The guy that I got the radiator from insisted he got it from Brassworks. What kind of improvement can I expect from a 3 row radiator?

I also had a flat when I got home so I will fix that tomorrow and take it back out with pure water and see what I get. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Fred]

I think you answered that your self about the 3 row !!.. But get a GOOD one from BERGS radiator...

[Mike V. Florida]

Everything was running fine, you replaced the head with one that makes the car run cooler, you replaced the radiator.

What makes a car run hot?
Clogged radiator, but you put in a new one.
Blown head gasket, but you replaced the head and checked for bubbles in radiator.
Did you check compression to be sure the gasket is good?
Timing, Have you timed it using Marco's web site?

[TinCup]

Mike,

Yes to all. As soon as I get the flat fixed today I am going to run straight water and see how it behaves.

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Everything was running fine, you replaced the head with one that makes the car run cooler, you replaced the radiator.

What makes a car run hot?
Clogged radiator, but you put in a new one.
Blown head gasket, but you replaced the head and checked for bubbles in radiator.
Did you check compression to be sure the gasket is good?
Timing, Have you timed it using Marco's web site?

[bobpo]

Do you know if the fins (blades) on your water pump impeller are original or have they been ground down? I had great flow into the top tank, TOO MUCH IN FACT. Slowing the flow down was necessary for the fluid to get into the cores at the same rate at the fluid was entering the top of the tank. Too much flow ends up blowing out the overflow or overheating (both)

I was told to remove my impeller and grind the blades down as mentioned above and it eliminated my Hot Running immediately. No problem since doing that a couple of weeks ago. Even running in hot weather.

Just my thoughts............

NOW I FEEL CONFIDENT TO DRIVE THIS LITTLE CAR ANYWHERE, ANYTIME...YEEHAW.

[TinCup]

Well I got my flat fixed and once again verified point gap and timing. Headed out for a 5 mile run to see how things would go. Just 100 degrees today but temps only got over 190 when I stopped and came back down when I started to roll. 180-190 has always been where it would run in the summer. I also tried straight water. Almost identical results. I don't know if you would call this solved but it's manageable.

I am going to call Bergs in the morning and talk to them about a 3 core radiator. I am intrigued on how one would fit as I have only a fingers width between the end of the water pump shaft and the 2 core radiator.

Bobpo do you have a temp gauge on the car to share your temps now?

[TinCup]

ttt

[Mike V. Florida]

We have a guy in our club that had a motometer on his car. The motometer would climb right up to the very top when he drove the car.

He spent time cleaning, adjusting, testing for weeks but each time the temp would rise. It's been over 10 years since he fixed the problem and still has the same car, radiator and times his car the same way.

Oh, I forget to mention the fix, he took off his motometer.

[Ice man]

As you can see, I live in the Islands where its always hot and we have mountains in stead is hills. I am running a B block slightly warmed up, a Lion Head, B water pump with out a fan. My secret is a Walker Radiator (3 13/16 thick) I can climb any hill down here, NO fan, and she never gives me a problem. She will run a bit warm if I am in traffic, but I have a back up electric fan, just in case. LOL I have never used it or needed it. Iceman

[TinCup]

Mike,

I have a regular radiator cap on standby

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

We have a guy in our club that had a motometer on his car. The motometer would climb right up to the very top when he drove the car.

He spent time cleaning, adjusting, testing for weeks but each time the temp would rise. It's been over 10 years since he fixed the problem and still has the same car, radiator and times his car the same way.

Oh, I forget to mention the fix, he took off his motometer.

[TinCup]

I am beginning to think the 2 core radiator I have is not sufficent for these temps.

Originally Posted by Ice man

As you can see, I live in the Islands where its always hot and we have mountains in stead is hills. I am running a B block slightly warmed up, a Lion Head, B water pump with out a fan. My secret is a Walker Radiator (3 13/16 thick) I can climb any hill down here, NO fan, and she never gives me a problem. She will run a bit warm if I am in traffic, but I have a back up electric fan, just in case. LOL I have never used it or needed it. Iceman

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by TinCup

I am beginning to think the 2 core radiator I have is not sufficent for these temps.

When I bought my 29 Tudor it had a repro 2 row, and it wasn't enough.

[Purdy Swoft]

I once had a two row radiator on one of my model A's, Not a brass works. The core of this radiator didn't extend all the way back to the edge of the radiator frame, it was quite thin. This radiator cooled a worn out engine with no problem. When I installed a good engine that didn't have all the wear clearance, the two row radiator would no longer do the job.

[TinCup]

When I talked to the folks at Brassworks they insisted that 3 cores weren't necessary. That their 2 core design was so much more efficent that the 3rd core wasn't necessary. I am running a 6 fin 2 row Brassworks now and it's not enough in these temps. Whether a 10 fin would be better I can not say. I either have to bite the bullet and purchase a 3 row or see if I can borrow one from one of our local club members to see it if better cools.

[TinCup]

I have found that the outside temps directly impact how the cooling system performs. Drove 30 miles Saturday 40-45 mph outside temps was around 68 degrees. Car ran 160-170 degrees. On the return drive temps were around 88 degress and car ran 190-200 degrees.
Until I can afford a new radiator I guess I will pull the head and check the gasket and check the water pump impeller and make sure it isn't spinning on the shaft.
I also noticed that at the top of the radiator tank the temps are what the gauge shows. At the bottom of the tank the temps were around 150. At the inlet neck they were close to what the gauge shows. Almost like it's not pulling the cool water up but I can see the water moving thru the radiator. Increase speed and it the flow increases. ARRRGGGGG!

[1931 flamingo]

The water flows out of the head, down tru the radiator and back to the block.....
Paul in CT

[TinCup]

I got that but in that case why isn't the water at the top of the inlet hose closer in temps to the bottom of the radiator?

[Bob C]

The inlet is on the side the block, I would think it would be
close to the bottom tank temp.

[Ron in Quincy]

For 30 years, when rebuilding my waterpumps, I drill a 3/16" hole in each impeller; this slows down the water entering the top of the radiator; it also stops cavatation which will cause heating.

A good test of your cooling system is to remove the fan belt and drive just letting the air moving thru the radiator do the cooling. Broke a fan belt many years ago and drove home 60 miles; as long as I was moving the A ran just as cool as it did with the pump working.

Ron

[d.j. moordigian]

Thremosiphon, Model T's used it since 1908 and they had no pump, but you
know that Ron.

Dudley

[Pilotdave]

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Tincup, I'm unclear about your temp measurements. What spot in the system do you mean by "inlet neck"? Inlet to the radiator? Inlet to the block? Thanks.

[Ice man]

I am running a Walker 3 13/16 thick Rad, a Lion head, a V/8 Water pump (no Fan) in St Thomas and I can't get the gauge to move unless I'm in Traffic. I installed an electric fan (just in case) with the new rad but its never been used, NEVER. The B engine runs well and climbs the mountain roads and she has never run hot since Walker's been on the job.

[700rpm]

I've been following this thread and it seems to me that the problem is not the timing, the radiator, and probably not the water pump either. I suspect some obstruction in the block or head, possibly an incorrect head gasket or just crud accumulated in the water jackets. Has your engine been flushed or was it hot tanked when it was rebuilt?

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by TinCup

When I talked to the folks at Brassworks they insisted that 3 cores weren't necessary. That their 2 core design was so much more efficent that the 3rd core wasn't necessary. I am running a 6 fin 2 row Brassworks now and it's not enough in these temps. Whether a 10 fin would be better I can not say. I either have to bite the bullet and purchase a 3 row or see if I can borrow one from one of our local club members to see it if better cools.

Really …I said that?
I rarely make categorical statements about heat exchange theory so I am surprised to find myself quoted. Unfortunately heat exchange theory is a little more complicated than that and you would have to know far more variables to compare two cores e.g. tube shape and interior surface area, tube wall thickness, fin surface, fin thickness, fin depth etc. I would recommend Fundamentals of Heat Exchange Design 2003 by Shah and Sekulic as a primer.

I will not review other radiators available but can compare some elements of Ford’s design to our core design.

Tube Shape & Design

Flattening a round tube into an ellipse forces more coolant to touch the wall than the center and that helps the heat (electrons) move from heat source(coolant) to heat sink (air). This is why Ford changed from inline round tubes in 28-29 to offset ovals in 1930-31. Today, we use highly elliptical tubes because they cool better due to their shape. If you use Ramanujan’s formula our flat tube has a 38% greater circumference of the perimeter of Ford’s 30-31 oval. Compare a 28-29 Ford round tube interior wall surface area to our flat tube and we have 2.93xs more. This improved contact of coolant-to-wall and wall-to-fin is where the heat exchange happens.

Tube Layout and Fin Surface

Our flat tubes have a staggered array to disrupt the air horizontally and fin surface disruptions occur between the tubes through embossing louvers in the copper. Ford began dimpling fins for the same reason in 1930 to reduce the impact from laminar air flow theory (the cushion of hot air that cool air rides on).

Volume & Flow

The aggregate coolant volume held by our 30-31 core is 5.12 oz greater than Ford’s design and 3.84 oz less in the 28-29. Tanks inlets and outlets capacity is the same.

Surface Area

Though we make 6 fin per inch 30-31 and round tube 28-29, most Model A radiators we sell are 10 fin per inch. It has 40% more surface area than Ford’s design and that is probably the greatest benefit to cooling.

Fin Depth

Henry Ford’s radiator is 1.875”thick and the tube size and center-to-center layout we use yields a 1.8125” thick core.

Our most common 10 fin per inch radiator design uses a more expensive tube, cost more in labor and uses more copper than Ford and other alternatives and yes our radiator cost $10-45 more than the other alternatives.

If forum readers have questions about our cores or radiators please visit our website. We add to it when people ask questions. You can also contact me directly.

[TinCup]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

I've been following this thread and it seems to me that the problem is not the timing, the radiator, and probably not the water pump either. I suspect some obstruction in the block or head, possibly an incorrect head gasket or just crud accumulated in the water jackets. Has your engine been flushed or was it hot tanked when it was rebuilt?

I just flushed the block 2 weeks ago. I filled it with muratic acid and let is set for 24 hours. I then drained it and flushed it several times with water.

I have a thermostat that was given by someone in the club to slow down the flow back to the radiator. If that doesn't show some improvement then the head comes off and I will take a top down approach.

[TinCup]

Originally Posted by Pilotdave

Tincup, I'm unclear about your temp measurements. What spot in the system do you mean by "inlet neck"? Inlet to the radiator? Inlet to the block? Thanks.

Using a laser temp gauge I was curious as to temps on each cylinder looking for a hot spot. I aimed it at the bottom hose just where it connects to the water pipe. It read about 150 degrees. When I pointed it directly at the inlet neck on the side of the motor it read almost 185 degrees. I would have expected it to be closer to the 150 at the bottom of the radiator.

[Ryan]

Hey Tincup, is the radiator you are having issues with a Brassworks unit, or no?

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

I am of the opinion that the number of rows of tubes in the radiator core is more important than the fins per inch specification. I bought a radiator a few years ago from one of the more popular radiator vendors that was specified at 10 fins per inch. I had the same problem you are describing. Around town it was fine. Climbing a grade or out in the desert it boiled over.

I thought the tubes may have become plugged from rust in the engine. I took the radiator to a radiator shop to have it rodded out. When they pulled the tanks off the tubes were not plugged, but there was only two rows of tubes.

I had the core replaced with a four row core and now the temp gauge stays locked on 160 (the thermostat setting) no matter where I travel.

I think the best solution to Model A radiators is to take an original radiator to a shop that speaks Model A and have them install a four row core.

Tom Endy

Tubes and fins are equal. With two rows of tubes, and put on as many fins that are practical is all you can do at that point, then add a set of tubes, and so on. any time I have to replace a Radiator in anything, I get the most tubes, and fins as possible, that will fit the hole it is going in. That is any engine, years ago, I wasted a lot of money trying to get by cheap, and that is always the most expensive. also as the boys said, it could be the timing, as a Hi Comp. head, is different. Herm.

[TinCup]

It is a dimpled 6 fin 2 core Brassworks radiator. It was given to me by a friend who replaced it with a Brassworks pressurized unit. It was on the car when it was purchased and was presented as brand new.

Originally Posted by Ryan

Hey Tincup, is the radiator you are having issues with a Brassworks unit, or no?

[Jim Mason]

have you checked for air leaks in the fuel system?..fwiw,jm

[TinCup]

Yes we did the starter fluid test last week. We got the great heads together, mine wasn't in the group, and since the radiator is dropping the temps almost 50 degrees top to bottom and their is no loss of water that the water pump may not be pushing enough water thru the system which would cause the overheating at higher speeds. I am building a new water pump this afternoon and am going to switch it out tomorrow.

[Purdy Swoft]

Just to add to the list of possibilities, if the engine has been sleeved it will run hotter. Engines that have been sleeved can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same because the sleeve isn't part of the engine block. but is pressed into place

[Frank Miller]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Just to add to the list of possibilities, if the engine has been sleeved it will run hotter. Engines that have been sleeved can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same because the sleeve isn't part of the engine block. but is pressed into place

I doubt that makes a significant difference. The press fit should not alter heat transfer enough to matter. I have heard of thin walls in bored engines having cooling problems due to thin cylinder walls. Not Model a's though.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Just to add to the list of possibilities, if the engine has been sleeved it will run hotter. Engines that have been sleeved can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same because the sleeve isn't part of the engine block. but is pressed into place

Not true. Just as running a .125 overbore will overheat, that's not true either. If you ever bore a Model A through the wall into the water jacket you will have to bore over .300 radius. I have bored a cylinder .250 and still the cylinder was not compromised.

[TinCup]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Just to add to the list of possibilities, if the engine has been sleeved it will run hotter. Engines that have been sleeved can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same because the sleeve isn't part of the engine block. but is pressed into place

The motor is bored 80 over but not sleeved.

[Pilotdave]

Originally Posted by TinCup

Using a laser temp gauge I was curious as to temps on each cylinder looking for a hot spot. I aimed it at the bottom hose just where it connects to the water pipe. It read about 150 degrees. When I pointed it directly at the inlet neck on the side of the motor it read almost 185 degrees. I would have expected it to be closer to the 150 at the bottom of the radiator.

I suspect that it makes sense for you to get 185* at water inlet on block vs 150* at bottom of radiator, given that you were getting around 185* at outlet from block. It seems reasonable that the block would be (+/-) at one temp with the radiator cooling the water from the block temp to about 150*. I have no expert knowledge of this - just a guy trying to think about your problem. HTH

[Louis]

My 31, after a 10 mile drive, outside temp 85-90 with the eng. at idle the temp. of the cly. head is 165-168, the temp. of the block is 155-165. I use 50/50 and if their was anti-freeze in 1928-1931 Ford would have used it.
If your car runs hot with 50/50 it will run hot on any other mix.
my opin. is you have a problem with your rad. or a block full of corr....That is, if your car runs ok otherwise.
I still think you have a rad. prob. JMHO

[Jim Mason]

Did you say you have a thermostat in it? Is it a 180degree thermostat? ...fwiw,jm

[1931 flamingo]

Are you a club member or are there other A's nearby? Any chance of swapping radiators with some one elese whose DOESN"T run hot?? How's the new water pump coming along?
Please keep us updated.
Paul in CT

[TinCup]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Are you a club member or are there other A's nearby? Any chance of swapping radiators with some one elese whose DOESN"T run hot?? How's the new water pump coming along?
Please keep us updated.
Paul in CT

Just changed out water pump today. I will make a run this afternoon and see what happens. I am fortunate that I have lots of club members to help.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

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I know this is an old thread.


Am struggling with same issue. Do not need advice on troubleshooting. Curious if radiator and if something wrong with it, or if undersized.


Is there is an update, what resolved your issue?


Thanks

[TinCup]

There is a much more detailed post here in the barn. Radiator ended up being an aftermarket 2 core radiator. Stock radiator was three core. Bought a replacement from Bergs Radiator and all is good now.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by TinCup

There is a much more detailed post here in the barn. Radiator ended up being an aftermarket 2 core radiator. Stock radiator was three core. Bought a replacement from Bergs Radiator and all is good now.

Thanks much, I've eliminated everything else. I have a replacement 2 row 8 fin that was installed 4 years ago by a repair shop, not sure of brand, was assured this was what they have used on other As and never had issues. My A had other issues, had to flush/backflush for 2-3 years to get all the crud out, and the head gasket was bad so it has had the top end rebuilt with coolant passages manually cleaned. This was an inherited A that had a 50 year nap. Going to do a Block test, then I guess will have to upgrade my radiator.


Thanks for the quick reply.

[TinCup]

My old radiator was fine as long as the temps didn't get above 75 degrees. It too was a 2 row 8 fin. Had it flushed twice. It just takes 3 cores to do the job.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

I see you used a Bergs 3 row. I've had recommendations of the Bergs and the Brassworks 2 row 10 fin. Why did you choose Bergs? Anything negative about the Brassworks?


Thanks

[TinCup]

I have installed 6 Bergs radiators without a single problem. Family run business that makes a big difference to me. I have installed only one Brassworks and I had a hard time getting the radiator shell to line up. Again if you will search the barn Berg's users speak loud and clear.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Thanks much for the replies, so much info on this site, hard to sift through it and make a decision. I saw a lot of info on Brassworks QC issues, but most posts were more than 6 years old, a lot of time for that company to improve. Am a newbie at age 65, and not that familiar with computers and searching a database - thanks for your patience.