Water pumps & thermostats revisited...yet again

[gearheadbill]

Last night I got my mostly stock 40 started for the first time; it was a running car but had been in storage for a number of years before I got it. Once I fired it up it became immediately evident that one of the water pumps was frozen. Tore up the fan belt and scared the crap outa me doing so. Since it will be torn down I am going to replace both water pumps for peace of mind. Seems like a pretty straightforward bit of mechanic-ing, especially because the nose is off the car. Thanks to everyone who has posted previously on the how-to's of this work.

As a result, Ive been doing some reading here on the FordBarn and there is certainly a wealth of facts, opinions and experiences when it comes to cooling system parts and issues. I'd pretty well decided to send the pumps to Skip Haney BUT...the no-thermostat provision that goes with using his pumps has me concerned BECAUSE...this car has what seems to be a very oversized custom radiator (21"x25"x3"core) and I'm afraid that without thermostats the engine temps will not get up to the required levels needed for good running and performance. I'm not worried about quick warm-ups. It's not destined to be an A to B car.

My plan is to call Mr. Haney on Monday and ask him directly what he thinks. I've read here that he's very accessible and willing to help out with the problem solving.

But what do you think? Will the extra capacity radiator combined with no thermostats be ill advised?

[Floyd]

Engine operating temperature has to be controlled. It must get up to proper temp for everything to work as intended. For these old flatheads, that number is in the range of 180 to 190 degrees F. The quicker it can get to that temp , the better. High temp is always better for the engine and the thermal process that it creates. The cooling system is there to prevent the temp from running away with itself and causing its own set of problems. So you have to control the system to get to the operating temp and stay there. The radiator only serves as a way to carry heat away from system. If the radiator is under sized , the temp will go too high. If the radiator has too much heat transfer, the operating temp will be too low. The thermostat is the control device. It must be there to regulate the system. Just like the thermostat on your furnace or the refrigerator. You would never dream of running a refrigerator or house without a control device unless you think you could design a system that is so balanced that with the furnace running 100 % the heat loss through the walls would be exactly equal , thus providing a constant inside temp.
A lot of people have an inadequate cooling system (flatheats) so they can overheat. You ,on the other hand have a oversized system and the low running temp is just as bad.
You surly need a thermostat.
my opinion

[deuce_roadster]

What Floyd says x2. My avatar roadster without stats would not get over 110 degrees and ran like crap. I have 180s in there now and after I fire it up, I don't even try to drive it until it is above 150. Now it stays at 180-190 and is great to drive. I have a Griffin radiator that they told me would cool a blown big block brand x, full shroud and electric fan. (pictures in public 32 roadster album)
40s suffer from the fan being too low ( I have 3 40s) that works against you keeping it cool.

[gearheadbill]

I certainly do appreciate the comments. Until recently I also had a 59A powered 40 Tudor that would sit in the driveway and idle at 180 all day long; never overheat. I have no real feel for the history of this car I have now but the big radiator says overheating may have been a problem somewhere along the line.

[Drbrown]

For what its worth .... I use 160 stats and my stock rebuilt radiator and pumps are in good shape. Only thing non-original is that it uses a six-blade fan instead of four-blade to keep the engine compartment cooler in summer - sometimes use to get vapor lock with the 10 % ethenal gas without it.

I'm in the northeast two hours south Montreal. During summer on a 90 degree day the engine runs at abt 180 -185. In winter at say 20 degree air temp it runs at abt the stat rating of 160 - 165.

I believe stats are important to get the engine warmed-up faster, and be able to sustain a certain temp even in cold weather.

[fortyfords]

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Please post what Mr. Haney says about this.

[chap52]

i am running 180's in my truck with aftermarket water pumps. Even in the hot Arizona summers when running my "Cold Air Products" a/c it never overheats, reaching about 190-200 on the hottest of days.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by fortyfords

Please post what Mr. Haney says about this.

Skips position on thermostats is miss quoted on this forum. He
states in his instructions to remove stats when installing his pumps.
Then run the engine and see if the engine runs cool. Then he says to
ONLY use Robertshaw 330- 170 or 330-180 states modified by Bob
Shewman. These are made to fit in the upper hoses with a relief hole
to allow a small flow through the engine during warm up time. These
stats have very large flow opening and allow a full flow of coolant
through the system. All other stats have a small opening and cause
a restriction of flow. Why would someone buy high flow pumps then
reduce the flow?? Bob supplies stats for 32 to 51 engines. Some will
say they use the smaller stats and they work but this won't be true
in hot weather in traffic. In cooler weather the smaller ones may work
but I wouldn't use them. Skip also recommends a bottle of Bar's heavy
duty copper block sealer and 2 bottles of Purple Ice which coats the
coolant surfaces and transfer heat better. I have installed PI in several
engine and watched as the temp dropped 15 to 20 degrees. It takes
about a half hour to start working. I prefer tap water not distilled.
My tests were all done in 90 degree plus weather for a period of
several years. One way to test the temps is before installing stats
use a piece of cardboard over about 1/3 of the radiator at the bottom
to see how the temp is. You can adjust the size to get the temp you
want. Some people who only drive once in a while in cool temps use
this method. G.M.

[4t8v8]

It's best to do whatever works for you. I use 160 stats, no pressure and a recovery tank. Been doing this for over 60 years. The engine has never overheated in it's life.

[krackerjack1951]

a dilemma still remains..poor design in flat motor to run interstate speeds of 65/70 mph more fuel more heat..raise your right foot ,,reduce speed to 50/55 mph engine calms down and runs like is designed for... bigger pump flow does not allow heat trans fer in radiator,,big radiators,,big fans is not the answer...just sells stick and controversy and parts,,..not hard to understand! running my merc for 25 years..go by the laws of physics and the engine will be satisfactory,,dont use creek water and recycle oil and black pepper as stop leak all those were witch craft

[JM 35 Sedan]

I'm running Skip Haney's water pumps, his overflow check valve, high flow thermostats and 3.54:1 gears in the rear of my basically stock/original 35 fordor sedan. I can cruise at 60-65 mph as long as I care to with engine temperatures in the range of 180-185°F. The only overheating problems I have are when outside temperatures reach ~ 100°F, and I get stuck in a traffic backup, or if I get into a long hard up hill pull like I did crossing the Rocky Mountains.

[gearheadbill]

Originally Posted by fortyfords

Please post what Mr. Haney says about this.

Hopefully I will be able to speak with him on Monday and will report back afterwards.

The only skin I have in this game is that I want the best possible outcome from whatever mix of parts I end up using. The main reason I started this thread is that since I have no history with this car, I'm starting from ground zero but would like to get a favorable outcome THE FIRST TIME around, if possible. I'm not a 'tinkerer'; fix it, move on.

Thanks for all the comments.

[Floyd]

Cold is far worse than hot, but this fact may never catch on.
My opinion

[JSeery]

Yep

[Ol' Ron]

I have all my blocks bake cleaned and run 180 stats. This seems to work wekk with stock pumps and a good fan fir a street engine. If I ever get my track engine running I'd like to use a set of "Skips" pumps for sustained hi power operation. Our stock car was old school with restrictors and a large radiater, usually a Chrysler AC unit was popular. Fans were not allowed. Many timed the engine came in over 220. After 50 years we learn better.

[gearheadbill]

I spoke with Mr. Haney a short time ago. My takeaway from that conversation is: He reckons that eventually, given enough time to warm up, the extra coolant capacity of my oversize radiator is neutralized...once everything gets to temp. He commented that I will still need to get the water moving thru the system.

I am sending him my pumps for rebuild...still on the fence about the initial use of thermostats. ??? Going to take my radiator today to get it flushed and pressure tested.

[Floyd]

I don't get it.

[gearheadbill]

Floyd: Before I try to explain, I want to state emphatically that I am not dissing or dismissing anyone or anything being said; past, present and future. My only goal is to get a good working, freshened up cooling system with new pumps on my 40.

I think perhaps I got ahold of Mr. Haney at an inopportune moment...busy Monday morning perhaps. He didn't seem eager to discuss the subject. 2 minute conversation. Seemed pressed. Again, maybe bad timing. Maybe I mis-understood what was said. I'm pretty good at that.

But my take-away was that eventually the engine will produce enough heat, even with the larger capacity, to get the coolant up to temp and that when that happens you gotta run it through the system as fast as you can, hence the need for hi volume pumps and no thermostats in the beginning , then add thermostats should they prove necessary. He said it's all in his instructions which will be included with my rebuilt pumps. Obviously, given enough coolant volume and flow, my engine hypothetically would not be able to generate enough heat to warm the coolant, which is my concern.

He did ask me how much larger capacity my system had. Since I have no real idea I couldn't give him a knowing answer. Perhaps that's why I got the default answer. I did send him my pumps for rebuilding this morning and will continue to "think about" all that's been said.

I also spoke with Bob Shewman in PA...ordered a pair of his thermostats. He seemed less pressed for time...very warm and friendly.

Hopefully this helps explain?

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by gearheadbill

...Obviously, given enough coolant volume and flow, my engine hypothetically would not be able to generate enough heat to warm the coolant, which is my concern....

Bill, We're getting dangerously close to the "Coolant Too Fast" foggy thinking here. This theory says that if the water runs through the engine too fast, it cannot pick up enough heat from the engine to be able to cool it properly. The truth is that the water spends as much time in the radiator as it does in the engine block, so the less heat it picks up, the less it has to get rid of. In actual practice, a temperature check of the radiator at different points will show that a slow moving flow will cool near the top of the radiator, while a fast moving flow will cool near the bottom of the radiator, the differential between the two being roughly equal at both speeds.

With your concern that the engine will never be able to generate enough heat to cool the fast moving coolant, you must remember that you are replacing the hot coolant with cooled coolant at the bottom of the block, but it will never be cooler than the radiator is capable of producing, so it does gradually get warmer as the engine runs. The coolant exiting the block at the top will be cooler the faster it goes, but that doesn't reflect the true engine temperature, because it did pick up less heat per unit of volume. Compare this to an adult who can carry a 100 pound sack of concrete from point A to point B, but it takes 20 children to carry 5 pound buckets of sand the same distance. All the sand gets where it needs to go, but the adult trudges along slowly while the children trot at a good clip. So, there is no such thing as "Coolant Too Fast", but the coolant can move too slow to adequately transfer enough heat at the top to cool the engine properly, because the coolant starts to cavitate with heat bubbles clinging to the metal, which insulate against heat transfer.

Bottom line is, the only internal combustion engine cooling system capable of remaining too cold for a flathead Ford to run efficiently would be found in a marine engine pumping river water "Too Fast".

[FlatheadTed]

The ideal Radiator is most likely the one you have it runs to cold and the thermostats bring it up to temperature, often high flow pumps are used to force water through a inefficient or blocked radiator and this you will get a cooler motor . In the experiments I have done I was surprised how much water a three blade 21 stud pump would pump In the day the cars were tested in the desert so they had it worked out good .If the Radiator barely supply's enough cold water then it will most likely run hot with thermostats .I talked to a old timer the other day and he spoke about staggerd tubes for a flat head ,its heat transfer from water to air ,the more air you can pass through the tubes the cooler,! a shroud does this .Like Ford 38 I think whether fast flow or slow its equal time in each .