How much to rebuild a Model A engine?

[edmondclinton]

There's always a lot of talk about the various Model A engine rebuilders on this site, almost daily. Being that it is always a concern for most, I think it would be interesting for the members to see what the average complete price would be to have their engines rebuilt by the following, especially those who frequently post, e.g., James Rogers, etc.. This would include installing the head, oil pump, oil pan, timing cover, side cover, manifolds etc. or in other words everything that an engine rebuilder may consider as standard for a long block. If not, just a short block amount as long as other short block amounts are listed for comparison. Individuals who have had their engines rebuilt recently by any of the following can post if they like. Thanks.


1. Rich @ AER in Skokie

2. H&H

3. James Rogers

4. Schwalms

5. Snyder

6. B. Terry

7. Joe Silva

8. Bert's

9. John Cosper in NM.

10. Ron Kelley

11. Kohnke Rebabbitting

12. J&M Machine

13. Piranio

14. Various unknowns

[Fred K-OR]

This is a very hard question to answer. It depends on many factors as to what it is going to cost. For example, is it just a stock rebuild, do you want to reuse parts or get all new parts, what type of bearings, how many things do they check out, etc. and many other factors. Thus there are not "set" prices.

Guess $1000 to $10,000------ but a realistic guess could be $3000 to $5000. And this is my $.02 worth because I am no expert in this area. Only my one experience with an engine and seeing what prices various companies advertise for rebuilt engines.

[Mitch//pa]

go on AER's,,,schwalms websites the prices are listed.... as well as some of the others listed

most short or long blocks wont include the maniflods

[James Rogers]

My standard rebuild for a long block with all stock configuration is 2995$ with good cores. I have one going to Midland, Tx in the stand right now. There are a lot of upgrades that affect the price of any rebuild IE: counterweighted or Scat crank, oversize intake valves, lightened flywheel and V8 clutch and so on.

[edmondclinton]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

This is a very hard question to answer. It depends on many factors as to what it is going to cost.

Not that hard to answer for a stock engine rebuild as Henry made it. James Rogers had no trouble making a post with a current average price.

[edmondclinton]

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Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

go on AER's,,,schwalms websites the prices are listed.... as well as some of the others listed

Too lazy for that. Plus the prices on those sites may not be as fresh as what could be posted here, even if it's only an average. Some small businesses will leave up a lower price and inform you of a price increase when you inquire about the work and talk it over. I've seen Snyder do this with his catalog.

[colin1928]

I only do them in small numbers and shipping kills me
average would be $3500.00 for a insert bearing long engine

[BlueSunoco]

So, even money, an insert engine adds what $800-$1000 over babbitt?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

Not that hard to answer for a stock engine rebuild as Henry made it. James Rogers had no trouble making a post with a current average price.

You did not say in your post it was "a stock engine rebuild as Henry made it".

Now the answer is easy.

[Tom Foster]

John Cosper (Pete's Auto Machine, Albuquerque) is apparently no longer active.
Fearless

[edmondclinton]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

You did not say in your post it was "a stock engine rebuild as Henry made it".

Now the answer is easy.

Sorry, I guess I took it for granted that most people would assume that I meant, stock, as Henry made it. The majority on the road are still that way and many people will have it no other way.

[SteveB31]

Our inserted counter balanced short blocks are $3150 exchange. Our inserted balanced long blocks with high compression heads and balanced lightened flywheels are $4400-4700 depending on variuos options. Add a new Stipe cam for $400 more.

Keep in mind, price is not the only factor in any engine. Some builders are more careful then others, but most all you listed in post #1 are all good builders.

Keep in mind that nobody is getting rich building these.

Steve Becker
Berts Model A Center

[colin1928]

Steve is right
Nobody is getting rich building these
Cost can vary on many things quality of the core , machine time , location, shipping , overheads and individual requirements
Much better money to made repairing mistakes from shops that do not normally rebuild A Models

[edmondclinton]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Steve is right
Nobody is getting rich building these

Well now that would depend on the volume of business and one's definition of what is considered rich. What may be peanuts to some may be a great quantity to others.

Moreover, in any business where there is an easy access potential for more competitors it would be wise to downplay it.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

Well now that would depend on the volume of business and one's definition of what is considered rich. What may be peanuts to some may be a great quantity to others.

Moreover, in any business where there is an easy access potential for more competitors it would be wise to downplay it.

I don't think the word peanuts was used. He said nobody is getting rich. People in all walks of life deserve to get fair value for effort expended. Also long hours were put into apprenticeships when they basically made minimum wage. So I apgree nobody is getting rich and I am sure they dislike the suggestion to the contrary. I know I would !
Wayne

[Logan]

Comparing prices isnt necessarily fair. Not all builders do the same style of work, or use the same quality of parts. There are some that use the cheapest parts they can find, while others use the highest quality of parts they can find. Some are mass production get them done as fast as possible, while others do one at a time making sure every little detail & measurement are precise. The easy way to sum it up is you get what you pay for. And even sometimes somesones price may be way higher then their quality. Just do your research, and you will find who is a reliable builder that suites your budget and the way youre going to drive your car.

[edmondclinton]

Originally Posted by C26Pinelake

I don't think the word peanuts was used. He said nobody is getting rich. People in all walks of life deserve to get fair value for effort expended. Also long hours were put into apprenticeships when they basically made minimum wage. So I apgree nobody is getting rich and I am sure they dislike the suggestion to the contrary. I know I would !
Wayne

How do you know what they dislike? There's nothing distasteful about my post. It's just my expressed opinion, the same as you just expressed yours.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by C26Pinelake

I don't think the word peanuts was used. He said nobody is getting rich. People in all walks of life deserve to get fair value for effort expended. Also long hours were put into apprenticeships when they basically made minimum wage. So I apgree nobody is getting rich and I am sure they dislike the suggestion to the contrary. I know I would !
Wayne

The mention of Vaseline probably created a little discomfort too.

I will say that I have found most customers of mine really do not have a true sense of what goes into their project. That is part of my job as a 'restorer for hire' is to educate my customer. I honestly feel if the O/P actually knew what a competent engine builder goes thru time-wise to properly machine and assemble a Model-A engine, ...AND when you/he factors in the costs we have to purchase good quality (i.e.: accurate) machinery and business overhead (costs to operate a business), I truly believe he would then understand why the costs are what they are.

[edmondclinton]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

The mention of Vaseline probably created a little discomfort too.

I will say that I have found most customers of mine really do not have a true sense of what goes into their project. That is part of my job as a 'restorer for hire' is to educate my customer. I honestly feel if the O/P actually knew what a competent engine builder goes thru time-wise to properly machine and assemble a Model-A engine, ...AND when you/he factors in the costs we have to purchase good quality (i.e.: accurate) machinery and business overhead (costs to operate a business), I truly believe he would then understand why the costs are what they are.

I understand perfectly why the prices are what they are and the use of the word Vaseline was only meant as a joke. Moreover, the majority of the Model A crowd has a history of not wanting to pay high prices and will often balk and perceive almost any price as being too high no matter what reason is given for it. The main purpose for my 1st post was to get builders to state a price for the basic turn key job so members could maybe see it all in one place and that's all.

[edmondclinton]

Even though it was only meant as a joke to draw attention, I removed the word Vaseline from the title.

[tbirdtbird]

"John Cosper (Pete's Auto Machine, Albuquerque) is apparently no longer active."
This is not a true statement.

[montanafordman]

I agree with others in that cost is not a great or fair comparison since there are so many options and so many great builders still have their own way of doing things. Reputation and referrals was a much more important thing for me than finding the cheapest, or most expensive, or most average costing job. With that said my build fell right in line with what others are charging which in my mind is a lot! (yet I also believe they are not getting rich off it, but they do quality work). I had a counterweighted crank and lightened flywheel included in that build among other things. Its a LOT of money but should last me through most of my Model A driving years and I'm still pretty young. I didn't want to regret skimping on certain features a few years down the line so I threw caution to the wind and went all in on the touring build. In my case the builder was local and has built MANY engines over the years for people all around the area who I tour with and all have had good experiences. Also should I have a problem I don't have to crate it up and ship it to another state, I can call him up and have him at my house that afternoon should there be a problem, and he stands behind his work. Many of the builders listed though I have no doubts do very good work and in other situations I wouldn't hesitate to call many of them who are listed. You get what you pay for in most cases, especially with a well known builder who has some referrals.

I would be cautious though throwing large sums of money at Mom&Pops rebuilding or Jim Bobs Garage with no real Model A following or experience - just make sure they speak Model A and find someone who has done business with them first and who has actually put REAL miles on their engines. You can go a lot of years and forget a lot of stuff on a marginal rebuild and never have serious issues if you only drive 8 blocks to ice cream and back for the months of June and July.

[Mike V. Florida]

Here we are on the second page and only one answer to how much for a stock "as Henry built it" rebuild.

Still think it is an easy question?

My opinion, Find a builder or two close to you, for shipping purposes, and then ask for emails on opinions about them. Many people won't publicly denounce someone but will give you an earful in private. Price be damned!

As a side note I would have no problem using anyone here on the fordbarn that freely gives of their time to attempt to help and educate us. They would put themselves out there as a target if they were screwing up engines. How many on the list in the first post do you see on the Fordbarn, the largest single place online for the stock Model A.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by montanafordman

I agree with others in that cost is not a great or fair comparison since there are so many options and so many great builders still have their own way of doing things. Reputation and referrals was a much more important thing for me than finding the cheapest, or most expensive, or most average costing job. With that said my build fell right in line with what others are charging which in my mind is a lot! (yet I also believe they are not getting rich off it, but they do quality work). I had a counterweighted crank and lightened flywheel included in that build among other things. Its a LOT of money but should last me through most of my Model A driving years and I'm still pretty young. I didn't want to regret skimping on certain features a few years down the line so I threw caution to the wind and went all in on the touring build. In my case the builder was local and has built MANY engines over the years for people all around the area who I tour with and all have had good experiences. Also should I have a problem I don't have to crate it up and ship it to another state, I can call him up and have him at my house that afternoon should there be a problem, and he stands behind his work. Many of the builders listed though I have no doubts do very good work and in other situations I wouldn't hesitate to call many of them who are listed. You get what you pay for in most cases, especially with a well known builder who has some referrals.

I would be cautious though throwing large sums of money at Mom&Pops rebuilding or Jim Bobs Garage with no real Model A following or experience - just make sure they speak Model A and find someone who has done business with them first and who has actually put REAL miles on their engines. You can go a lot of years and forget a lot of stuff on a marginal rebuild and never have serious issues if you only drive 8 blocks to ice cream and back for the months of June and July.

I agree totally especially the Jim Bob Garage part. The last people you want working on your car is the guy that has to put down the wrenches to go to the gas pumps or do a wrecker call. Get to a true professional !
Wayne

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by montanafordman

I agree with others in that cost is not a great or fair comparison since there are so many options and so many great builders still have their own way of doing things. Reputation and referrals was a much more important thing for me than finding the cheapest, or most expensive, or most average costing job. With that said my build fell right in line with what others are charging which in my mind is a lot! (yet I also believe they are not getting rich off it, but they do quality work). I had a counterweighted crank and lightened flywheel included in that build among other things. Its a LOT of money but should last me through most of my Model A driving years and I'm still pretty young. I didn't want to regret skimping on certain features a few years down the line so I threw caution to the wind and went all in on the touring build. In my case the builder was local and has built MANY engines over the years for people all around the area who I tour with and all have had good experiences. Also should I have a problem I don't have to crate it up and ship it to another state, I can call him up and have him at my house that afternoon should there be a problem, and he stands behind his work. Many of the builders listed though I have no doubts do very good work and in other situations I wouldn't hesitate to call many of them who are listed. You get what you pay for in most cases, especially with a well known builder who has some referrals.

I would be cautious though throwing large sums of money at Mom&Pops rebuilding or Jim Bobs Garage with no real Model A following or experience - just make sure they speak Model A and find someone who has done business with them first and who has actually put REAL miles on their engines. You can go a lot of years and forget a lot of stuff on a marginal rebuild and never have serious issues if you only drive 8 blocks to ice cream and back for the months of June and July.

Originally Posted by C26Pinelake

I agree totally especially the Jim Bob Garage part. The last people you want working on your car is the guy that has to put down the wrenches to go to the gas pumps or do a wrecker call. Get to a true professional !
Wayne

I will also add to this, most modern repair and rebuild shops will take in a Model A/B/T engine to rebuild but will have absolutely no concept of the operation of these. Once they have your engine, they will hold it hostage for 6-12 months swearing they are getting it but are really trying to figure it out or find a shop like mine that will do the work cheap so they can charge a fair sum and make a profit. It won't happen in my case because I charge shops like this 25% more to try and impress upon them the fact that some things are best left to those who know. I have one from TX that went to a local shop for a valve job and had to be completely rebuilt because of ignorance. The shop didn't want to work on a dirty engine so, guess what, they dropped the block in a caustic tank.......no more babbitt. Fortunately, they they pulled it back out when the babbitt started bubbling and they knew something was wrong but, not before the damage was done. The owner found out about this and retrieved the engine and called me, it is fixed but, at a price. A 375$ valve job turned into 3600$ expense when you figure in shipping. Be careful and talk to your engine man, if he is competent, he won't mind and you can always have a collaborator for advice on your part and he will welcome your questions.

[Not George]

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Seems to me edmondclinton could have made thirteen phone calls, got the exact information he was after, listed the current pricing, posted the results and had a useful and informative post.
Instead, I believe, he's just another guy with nothing better to do, knows everything, wants to debate it and started a p!$$!ng match so he can do just that.
Save the drama for your mama.
Thanks to all that post useful information!

[larrys40]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

Too lazy for that. Plus the prices on those sites may not be as fresh as what could be posted here, even if it's only an average. Some small businesses will leave up a lower price and inform you of a price increase when you inquire about the work and talk it over. I've seen Snyder do this with his catalog.

Edmond,
I guess you said it. . You obviously want a cheap price and are lazy . I don't think it's fair to ask every merchant to post their price just because you think you want everyone else to do your homework for you . These aren't a gallon of milk or a head of lettuce your pricing... Oh and by the way they change every week . Having done them myself I know parts prices change but most rebuilders hold their prices as much as possible . There are many variables , and if you want a few prices you got them from Steve and Jim... And some other very good answers . If you want a particular rebuilder they all have their cost of business and charge what they feel they have to . Pick your choice. If your incredibly cheap you picked the wrong hobby

In my humble opinion this is a bad thread .
Everyone is located where they are, so shipping is a factor , and there are stock engine prices as AER has posted, but you are too lazy to check out.
Rich at AER doesn't post on here and is probably to busy earning an honest living, so go check the websites and make the calls if you want prices.
It takes an incredible amount of equipment and talent to do what they do, and as those have stated, no one gets rich, their just earning a living.
Larry Shepard

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

I understand perfectly why the prices are what they are and the use of the word Vaseline was only meant as a joke. Moreover, the majority of the Model A crowd has a history of not wanting to pay high prices and will often balk and perceive almost any price as being too high no matter what reason is given for it. The main purpose for my 1st post was to get builders to state a price for the basic turn key job so members could maybe see it all in one place and that's all.

Yes, I suppose there are some within the hobby that do not want to pay high prices, -or perceive a price too high. Unfortunately that mindset is shared throughout many commodities in our everyday life, and not just with Model-As.

I will share a little analogy that very likely applies in the Model-A hobby too. As you may know, our other family hobby is racing cars, and there is a saying within the sport that goes like this. 'Most people race two classes above what they can truly afford!", ...and I think that same mindset applies to Model-A ownership!! Many hobbyists cannot honestly afford to own a Model-A and properly maintain it.

In a recent conversation with a fellow Fordbarner, he shared with me where he recently had a potential customer make a comment where that customer started out their conversation how he was on a fixed income and felt my Fordbarn friend needed to give him a discount due to his financial condition. I believe that conversation was ended with a statement to the effect that maybe that Gentleman needed to get out of the Model-A hobby and consider collecting Baseball cards or Matchbox cars which were more in-line with his financial abilities. A message that some will no doubt find brutal however a truthful message that some folks need to hear!

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

Even though it was only meant as a joke to draw attention, I removed the word Vaseline from the title.

Thank you. I apologize since guess I did not realize you meant it as joke.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Sure wish we could just buy a rebuilt Model A engine from China.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Sure wish we could just buy a rebuilt Model A engine from China.

that would come complete with duck sauce not VAS

[Model A Man]

I know very little about rebuilding motors let alone model A motors. I know it is comparing apples to oranges but I have a hard time understanding why you can get a rebuilt Chevy 350/327 motor for $1500.00 and it has double the piston and heads and yet cost less than half of getting a model A motor rebuilt. Just me wondering out loud.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

Too lazy for that. Plus the prices on those sites may not be as fresh as what could be posted here, even if it's only an average. Some small businesses will leave up a lower price and inform you of a price increase when you inquire about the work and talk it over. I've seen Snyder do this with his catalog.

To be fair to Snyder's (and other vendors) they do state right there on the cover of their catalog "Prices Subject To Change Without Notice".

[jrelliott]

Every penny spent with a reputable rebuilder using top quality parts is worth the price. When had my engine rebuilt in 2006 by Byers shop in Rochester MN with babbiting done by member of Lady Slipper's A's was over $3000. Crank was reused, but a lot of other parts new. Had the engine completely balanced with flywheel and clutch attached. It had already been changed to V8 clutch. Wish now had installed counterbalanced crank. The engine is smooth and runs great. So looking at James Rodgers price now is a bargain. Quality machine work is not cheap and when rebuilding to Henry's specs takes a quality shop.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Model A Man

I know very little about rebuilding motors let alone model A motors. I know it is comparing apples to oranges but I have a hard time understanding why you can get a rebuilt Chevy 350/327 motor for $1500.00 and it has double the piston and heads and yet cost less than half of getting a model A motor rebuilt. Just me wondering out loud.

I have built lots of both. The chev engines is easier. Plus the parts are much less, because of the quantity. There is a lot of small block chev engines being built. A lot of small blocks are being rebuilt in a factory.

[James Rogers]

I agree with George, there have been small block Chevys since 1954 and the motor didn't change but little. How many still survive in any state of existence? I suspect, there have been more of these built in the 50 years than Ford could have EVER dreamed being built of any one type of engine. Parts for these have swamped the market to the extent that a set of pistons can be had for less than a set of repo Model A pistons and there are 8 of them. A crank can be had for as little as 129.95$, try that with a Model A crank. Hell, it costs me 100 to get one re-ground and the fuel to drop it off and go get it.

Apples to cannon balls.

[Royce P]

Degreasing, cleaning and inspection of all parts including magnaflux crack testing of crankshaft.
Resurfaced deck and manifold face
Regrind crankshaft
Installation of unleaded valve seats and new valve guides
New alloy valves, springs, retainers and lifters
Rebabbitted main bearings and align boring with full laminated shim stack
Rebabbitted connecting rods with rebushed wrist pin
Rebored to next oversize on piston bores
New alloy pistons and rings
New crank gear and laminated timing gear
Reground cam with adjustable lifters
Assembly and painting
Short block rebuild options include:

• Metal timing gear
• Straight sided valves and conventional valve guides
• New Model B Camshaft or a driver regrind camshaft
• Larger valve head diameter and ported valve ports

Pricing
$2632.00

http://mrmodelt.com/product-1.htm

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

... it costs me $100 to get one [crank] re-ground and the fuel to drop it off and go get it...

And if you live in Alaska, it cost $100 just to ship it to someone to get the work done. Oh, and that's just to get it there, another $100 to get it back home,

[edmondclinton]

Originally Posted by Not George

Seems to me edmondclinton could have made thirteen phone calls, got the exact information he was after, listed the current pricing, posted the results and had a useful and informative post.
Instead, I believe, he's just another guy with nothing better to do, knows everything, wants to debate it and started a p!$$!ng match so he can do just that.
Save the drama for your mama.
Thanks to all that post useful information!

I'm amazed at your statements above. If you had read my posts you would have seen that I said, "The main purpose for my 1st post was to get builders to state a price for the basic turn key job so members could maybe see it all in one place and that's all."

Then you said, "Instead, I believe, he's just another guy with nothing better to do, knows everything, wants to debate it and started a p!$$!ng match so he can do just that.
Save the drama for your mama"

Could not the same be said about you? Why is healthy debate and defense of one's position considered drama and a P match?

[Cool Hand Lurker]

I recently had mine rebuilt with inserts by Dave Gerold in Minnesota and the price was comparable to those quoted. His shop was top notch and clean. The factors you can't put a price on like attitude, communication, judging when a part needs to be replaced and explaining why, makes it all worthwhile.

Every time I rebuilt a motor and took a shortcut it came back to bite me. I only did them for my own use and when the bite came back it was me who said "Ouch!"

I feel good with the motor Doctor Dave did and am now confident to take to the road knowing I will get back home again. Priceless!

But I suppose it could have been cheaper at Walmart but Edmond did not list that one. Time for an attitude adjustment?

[Ryan]

Idiots argue on the internet. Are you an idiot? You are not welcomed here.