Frustration aligning doors in a Fordor Body

[Marshall V. Daut]

I have spent a couple days trying to shim and get the doors aligned in a 1929 Murray Town Sedan that I am restoring. When the body was removed for paint two years ago, I didn't notice any shims when it came off the frame. I don't recall how the doors lined up before unbolting the body to remove the side splash aprons - 25 years ago! While sitting on the frame since then, the front doors sagged like this at the rear. They may have done so after unbolting the body in 1999. I just don't recall how the doors closed back then. I never drove it because it was a rolling death trap from a previous "restoration". So, it sat in storage, out of the elements.
After days of frustrating shimming activity this month, I have achieved lining up the front doors so that the belt lines are also straight across. The minor 1/8" droop in the front doors at the rear can be temporarily removed by lifting upon the back of the door. But no matter what I do, I cannot seem to eliminate the gap across the tops of the doors, even though the belt lines are lined up. Even "springing" the bottom hinge with a screwdriver doesn't help because there is no gap left at the top front of each door. I'm pretty sure once the latches are installed, the front doors will sit correctly inside the openings. It's so close now.
But that's not the main reason for this post. As can be seen from the photos, the belt lines match, but there is a gap all across the top of the doors that no amount of shimming will close up. Even if I could do that, the belt lines would then be all out of alignment. The car had a been a father and son abomination of a restoration. 90% of what they had done was wrong or poorly done. A full wood kit had been installed, which was probably the best thing about this car. Clearly installed by someone else. I noticed many parts had not been installed during that "restoration". I am wondering if something is missing across the tops of the doors or from the metal headliner strip at the top of the doorways that would take up this gap? I know that the interior's windlace will keep most of the passing air and rain from entering the compartment, but this much of a gap between the tops of the doors and the top of the door openings seems extreme.
Is there something missing here to take up the gaps? I see nothing in any vendor catalog that would solve this problem. Very frustrating! Fordors are not my Forte, so I don't know what is missing in these areas above the doors, if anything.
Marshall

[rotorwrench]

Wood is very good for structures that are well braced and connected to frame members that hold things in check. If a wood body sets for a long time with no major structural support to keep things is check, things can possibly warp and especially if it sets on uneven surfaces. I'm not saying that is what happened but it certainly could be a possibility depending on humidity conditions and such. Wood can still deteriorate under certain conditions. The Murray and Briggs bodies have a lot of wood structure so that is something to think about.

I have some experience with wood structure helicopter blades. If the helicopter set outside over night where dew and moisture in the air had an affect, it would take 45 minutes to an hour of running the next day to get the rotor system to fly right. If the helicopter was stored in a climate controlled environment over night, it was still as smooth as it was supposed to be. The main rotor blades were tied down to the tail boom when stored outside. The low blade over the tail boom would be heavier the next day due to the dew that had run down to the tip of that low blade overnight. They would slowly dry out when turning the blades at speed. The blades had cloth covering over the wood but it didn't matter. It would still react this way.

[nkaminar]

Shimming the body where it mounts to the frame can help. Additional rubber pads can be used as shims.

[Grumps]

Most of the old cars that I've had the privilege to own or work own doors, hoods, and trunk lids very seldom were aligned correctly from the factory and needed to be worked on to be perfect. Sometimes I would end up grinding some of the metal off the edges and reweld to get that perfect line. I don't think that it was a big priority for these old cars back then.

[fundytides]

Is that a gap between the center door post and the roof structure? I am not familiar with Fordor cars but it looks like the gap at the tops of the doors would be within reason if the gap at the top of the post was eliminated. Not sure what that would involve. Have patience and I am sure it will work out. I finished restoring a 31 Roadster a short time ago. I had used a junkyard body spliced to my original cowl section halfway through the door opening and I didn't think I would ever get the doors to close let alone line up. After recutting the splice and welding it agin and then hours of adjusting and shimming, the doors close easily with a satisfying click. Sometimes you have to try shimming a location that you wouldn't expect to get the result you want. In my mind, if your belt lines are ok and the doors close properly, your problem has to be with the fit of the top. Good luck!

[Chuck Dempsey]

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There used to be a website called 'abarnyard.com' which is now gone. It had lots of body alignment advice. Does anyone know if it now runs under a different address?

Thanks

[Gary WA]

This one is it Belongs to Marco Marco's Model 'A' Ford Barnyard has a four door aligning section,

[Chuck Dempsey]

Thanks, Gary. I'll save off that website address.....

[larrys40]

Marshall
I’ve done my fair share of body aligments and a number of them in wood subrailed ones.
I think the gap you are talking about is above the doors yet the belt lines line up . Correct ? I have seen this on some 4 doors at times. I think some of it stems from either a sub rail vertical support issue and possibly that’s how that particular body was built. Yea they used jigs for much of those but it seems like the roofs even at the back doors were a bit too high. Possible upper body assembly issue when new.
I’ve seen enough of these that it does make you scratch your head a bit and wonder I think like you are what is the cause.

What I can say is make sure all your body hinges aren’t sagging any, if so you would probably be scraping the rear fender curve on rhxrear door and sill on the front … which I take you are not.
I’m happy to chat with you on it. I’m in the MAN in back…

As you know these things take careful analysis and process to fix… sometimes just splitting differences. They were production cars that weren’t always perfect and relied on the workers who were doing the jobs at hand. I think as much as we want to think they were all perfect they were not. I’ve seen many differences over the years even on untouched originals.
Larry Shepard

[Marshall V. Daut]

Thanks, Larry. After more hours of frustrating shimming, I have settled for lining up the outer mid-door mouldings so that they match from the front door past the middle pillar to the rear door in a straight line, as well as clean door opening and closing action. I have decided the third element - the tops of the doors lining up and closing any gaps - is unattainable with this body. The reason may be as you describe: it's been that way from Day One in this body's life. I see no signs that the tops of the doors have been damaged or shortened. I think the body may have been made this way at Murray in 1929 -probably at 4:59 on a Friday afternoon.
So, I'll settle for those two successes and just accept that all three alignments just ain't gonna happen on this body. After all, we're talking about a mass-produced low priced car here, not a Rolls-Royce or a Cadillac from that era. I think it's more important to achieve a nice smooth straight outer body moulding alignment than across the tops of the doors. Otherwise, the pinstriping would like kind of funky.
Thanks to all who posted suggestions.
Marshall

[jb-ob]

Marshall,
Best to manage one's expectations, you already know the 'career' in aligning the doors on a Phaeton.

My Father graduated Dayton High School in1930 and his comment about my restored Model A, "They never looked that good new'.

jb

[larrys40]

Marshall
Thanks for the note back. Wish I was there to help you but as we’ve both said, these were production cars and not always perfectly aligned and as good and consistent body wise as we all want then these days.
We restore them to the best of our abilities and more often than not they turn out better in many areas than they may have been when new. Would love to have a day in the life of a ford factory worker or inspector back in the day.
Still, what an accomplishment it is to do these and the talent and skills we use and have not to mention the love of them to bring them back to life.
Kudos for your tenacity in restoring another 4 door.
All the best !
Larry Shepard

[Marshall V. Daut]

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement, Larry. This whole restoration has been a nightmare. As you well know, every once in a while you get a difficult restoration like this where seemingly the car fights any and all attempts at bringing it back to life. And just as often, a car's worst enemy is a previous owner and what he/she/it did that has to be undone and the original problem corrected. That's been the case with this Town Sedan. It was no rust bucket or a mish-mash of parts from all years, yet still it has presented me with one challenge after another. I'm probably 90% done with the restoration. Maybe after it's completed, life will seem worth living again.
Marshall

[rotorwrench]

Alignment on any closed model A car can be a challenge depending on the damage history, if any, and condition of structural members. I would try to split the difference between gaps and body lines to reduce visual differences as much as possible. Once a car is all painted up, it makes it difficult to tweak members, whether steel or wood, in order to get as close as possible to a pleasing outcome. Door hinges can be bent just as easy as body members but neither are easy to correct.

[4speed2quad]

I found that this is definitely a factor in dialing in the door gaps. Its a process in patience.

[langus480]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Wood is very good for structures that are well braced and connected to frame members that hold things in check. If a wood body sets for a long time with no major structural support to keep things is check, things can possibly warp and especially if it sets on uneven surfaces. I'm not saying that is what happened but it certainly could be a possibility depending on humidity conditions and such. Wood can still deteriorate under certain conditions. The Murray and Briggs bodies have a lot of wood structure so that is something to think about.

I have some experience with wood structure helicopter blades. If the helicopter set outside over night where dew and moisture in the air had an affect, it would take 45 minutes to an hour of running the next day to get the rotor system to fly right. If the helicopter was stored in a climate controlled environment over night, it was still as smooth as it was supposed to be. The main rotor blades were tied down to the tail boom when stored outside. The low blade over the tail boom would be heavier the next day due to the dew that had run down to the tip of that low blade overnight. They would slowly dry out when turning the blades at speed. The blades had cloth covering over the wood but it didn't matter. It would still react this way.

Sounds like a Bell 47? Must have been a very bumpy lateral until all the moisture dissipated and allowed the rotor blades to track properly...


Performed many T/B on Bell's over the years.

[langus480]

Originally Posted by Gary WA

This one is it Belongs to Marco Marco's Model 'A' Ford Barnyard has a four door aligning section,

Came across this from a different thread



https://web.archive.org/web/20140906...om/index.shtml


It is still up but has been archived.

[larrys40]

Marshall
Yesterday I went up to do a water pump house call up in Springfield Illinois for a guy and picked up some of his dad’s old A sheetmetal at the same time. It is a very nice 30 fordor.
It has perfect door alignment at the belt and molding …. No door sagging at all , although the top edge of the doors do not line up the same and there is a “gap” at the top as you indicated on yours…. Here’s a few photos… I think it’s just part of these fordors and the imperfect production/assembly of them when new. A few photos to show. There is absolutes no door sag anywhere and other then the top gap fit perfectly. Passenger side is better than drivers side .
Larry Shepard

[Marshall V. Daut]

Boy-Howdy, did I need to see THAT, Larry! If I didn't see a different background through the body's window openings, I would have sworn your photos show the body I am working on. Compare your photos to mine in post #10 and you can see these bodies are kissing cousins in the top of the door area = less than perfect alignment. As my photos show, the belt lines line up nicely and the doors open and close as they should. BUT I just couldn't get the tops of the doors to sit in a straight line across their tops and without any gaps. 'Looks like this is one of those built-in imperfections that we have to live with if we restore Model A's.
Thanks for making the effort to photograph that Fordor, Larry. I'm sure your photos and augmenting text will help alleviate similar frustrations that other owners may be experiencing with their Fordors/Town Sedans, presently and in future restoration.
Marshall

[Gene F]

Marshall, I think what you have is just fine. Don't give it a thought. You have a nice car. Looks nice, and I am sure it will be roadworthy. Let's face it, lots of A owners never drive their cars, and never maintain them. You will drive your car, and it will last much longer.

GOOD FOR YOU!