chrome dip vs. chrome plating

[oldmanandakid]

I have a neighbor who insists chrome dipping is just as good as chrome plating for my bumpers and much cheaper. I've never heard of the process. Any thoughts?

[Tom Wesenberg]

It can't be true. It might look better than rust or aluminum spray paint, but it won't be the same or better than real chrome.

[gweilbaker]

Isn't plating is to dip?

[oldmanandakid]

While I am fishing for info can you give me rough estimate of the cost of plating a full set of bumpers?

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by gweilbaker

Isn't plating is to dip?

Yes, to plate an object it has to be 'dipped' in the plating tank. But unless you apply an electric current, no plating will take place. Chrome plating involves an anode, usually lead, a cathode, the part being plated and a solution of chromic acid, sulphuric acid, water and mist suppressants. An electric current is applied, neg - cathode, pos - anode, at approx 2 amps per square inch of plating area, so a big power supply is needed.

[Kevin in NJ]

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Something does not sound right.

I did a quick search on chrome dipping and did not come up with anything. You would have to find out some more about what he really means. There is a process for depositing nickel on some surfaces that does not require electricity, but this is not chrome plating. Besides chrome plating for the decorative stuff (like bumpers) is really more of a clear coat over nickel.

Here are some comments I have on plating that may help:

Plating the A parts

[V4F]

dipping is a not like electroplating . ive worked in several shops & dave is correct . anything else must be a hoax ...........

[Tom Wesenberg]

There was a thread a year or two back where this new "plastic" chrome was being promoted. The link to the product even showed Jay Leno watching the process and he appeared to like it. Parts were dipped into a tank of something and came out with a shiney covering. I don't recall if the covering was baked on with heat, but to me it was like taking smooth bumper bars and having silver powdercoat put on them. It's just not the same as real chrome.

[miss victoria]

A local powder coater offers (chrome powdercoat)does not look like chrome plating? its kinda dull.

[PetesPonies]

There is ignorance here in terminologies. I believe the correct way to look at this is both parties are talking about the dame thing whether you/they realize it or not.

[28RPU]

Sounds to me like your neighbor doesn't know anything about which he is speaking.

[d.j. moordigian]

We've done this...looks crappie too me...."flash Chroming metal"...

* I believe this is what you are talking about *

[PetesPonies]

Normal chroming involves dipping in copper, nickel and then chromium. Flash chrome is where you apply the chrome directly over a smooth substrate, many times stainless steel. It doesn't last as well for sure.

[pooch]

The Jay Leno watch was sprayed on silver nitrate, same as a mirror.

It looks perfect, as good as chrome in appearance, although only a spray and don't know how long it will last in UV.

[MikeK]

I've had plenty of dips tell me their chrome work was concours grade stuff. Ya get what you pay for. Been dipped, didn't like it.

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

Normal chroming involves dipping in copper, nickel and then chromium. Flash chrome is where you apply the chrome directly over a smooth substrate, many times stainless steel. It doesn't last as well for sure.

Nonsense.
Among many other things, I designed the chrome roof racks and running board trim solution used on the second and third generation (2001 to present) Cadillac Escalades.

In 1998-99 I changed the game by using 434C ferritic stainless substrate, with chrome plating directly over the top. This was a new solution to an ongoing problem of exterior chrome performance in an age of increased acid rain and increaingly alkaline consumer cleansers. To compound that, road commissions across the US have been going crazy with sodium chloride on paved roads in the winter, and magnesium chloride on dirt roads in the summer.

This particular chrome chemistry solution completely addressed previous issues with chrome plated steel corrosion, as well as off-color and tea staining issues of polished stainless solutions due to environmental conditions stated above.

Cadillac got the high luster and high durability chrome they wanted, and the finish quality has stood the test of time for a dozen years of production. It set the new standard in GM for all chrome finishes on large exterior trim (except for truck front bumpers).

[PetesPonies]

Hey, nonsense?? BS . . something that has been done recently . . how do we know the results over time? When flash chrome is applied it is done over a substrate like you said, I said similar. The difference is in how well it lasts. We have an adhesion subject here. There is a reason for copper, then nickel, then chromium. Sure that's old technology and I'm not an expert at everything "new". But we shall see how well things done "your" way last over time. From things I have seen on newer cars, they didn't last well. Why is this different?

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

Hey, nonsense?? BS . . something that has been done recently . . how do we know the results over time? When flash chrome is applied it is done over a substrate like you said, I said similar. The difference is in how well it lasts. We have an adhesion subject here. There is a reason for copper, then nickel, then chromium. Sure that's old technology and I'm not an expert at everything "new". But we shall see how well things done "your" way last over time. From things I have seen on newer cars, they didn't last well. Why is this different?

Hard chrome plating, which is used to build up bearing surfaces in aircraft engines, landing gear and other areas on different aircraft parts, is applied directly to the substrate. The only difference between hard chrome and bright chrome, is the thickness of the plating. Bright chrome is typically a tenth of a thou at most, where as hard chrome is two thou or thicker, sometimes up to twenty thou.
The corrosion resistance comes from the thickness of the nickel underneath the chrome. Copper is rarely used these days, as it has to be plated from a cyanide solution, and EPA regs on pollution control make it very expensive to do. There is a nickel chloride strike which gets used before the bright nickel is applied, replacing the copper cyanide.
Why the flash chrome over stainless steel works is because stainless in it self contains chrome and is also highly corrosion resistant. Using a flash of chrome over normal steel will provide no corrosion resistance what so ever.
My first trade in the Royal Australian Air Force was as an electroplater, so I do have some inside knowledge on this subject.

[PetesPonies]

We are way off subject here. Hard chroming on engine parts is totally different IMO. The expectations and how the parts are used are totally different. Chroming on engine parts, been around forever. But it's a different baby.

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

We are way off subject here. Hard chroming on engine parts is totally different IMO. The expectations and how the parts are used are totally different. Chroming on engine parts, been around forever. But it's a different baby.

You mentioned adhesion, I was just pointing out adhesion is not the problem as hard chrome and decorative chrome are essentially the same and there is no adhesion problem when plating chrome, either hard or decorative, directly on to the substrate.

[PetesPonies]

But in a different environment adhesion is different, no? An oiled, albeit hot, engine is different than wet, cold, hot, UV laden outside. Because what I'm seeing is when pieces are chromed without traditional steps, and subjected to outside issues, they don't hold up. No??

[zzlegend]

Speaking of Jay Leno. Here it is. I am not a true beliver in using this on bumpers or headlight rings, etc. But maybe some dash trim or door panel trim? Or?
But i am still in favor of good old fashion copper, nickel, chrome, if you can find it. California is starting to suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-1cTpSZ1l8

[PetesPonies]

It will work on a lot of things. It is an expensive process though. The equipment is $$$ I looked into to it several years ago and didn't buy because of the upfront costs.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Thanks ZZ, that's exactly what I thought the guy in the original post was talking about.

Isn't this the same way plastic interior parts have been chromed for many years?

[PetesPonies]

No that is not how plastic parts have been chromed. That is how mirrors have been made.

[dave in australia]

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Originally Posted by PetesPonies

But in a different environment adhesion is different, no? An oiled, albeit hot, engine is different than wet, cold, hot, UV laden outside. Because what I'm seeing is when pieces are chromed without traditional steps, and subjected to outside issues, they don't hold up. No??

Well plated chrome adheres no less inside a hot turbine or a cold undercarriage. The inside of a turbine is a lot hotter than a rocker cover of a piston engine. Hot oil splashed around some rocker cover does not affect the plating, it is not like paint. I am a trained, qualified and certified electroplater, I do have some idea of what I am talking about.

[PetesPonies]

Hey garage . . bite me. I don't need your criticism, not wanted at all.

Dave, I have a metallurgy background in my training. I understand some things in this area. This is WHY I keep asking. You have noticed my question marks? I have several items that have been flash chromed, at this moment. I can peel a piece off for you. And if this flash operation is as good as triple plating, then why is triple done in the first place , especially on a new part? And I'm not comparing hot in an engine to hot outside alone . I'm throwing in the UV. That's not a consideration? because if not, it seems everyone has been doing this wrong all the years.

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

Hey garage . . bite me. I don't need your criticism, not wanted at all.

Dave, I have a metallurgy background in my training. I understand some things in this area. This is WHY I keep asking. You have noticed my question marks? I have several items that have been flash chromed, at this moment. I can peel a piece off for you. And if this flash operation is as good as triple plating, then why is triple done in the first place , especially on a new part? And I'm not comparing hot in an engine to hot outside alone . I'm throwing in the UV. That's not a consideration? because if not, it seems everyone has been doing this wrong all the years.

UV has absolutely nothing to do with copper/nickel/chrome electroplating performance.

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

No that is not how plastic parts have been chromed. That is how mirrors have been made.

Chrome plated plastics are made of ABS.
The ABS part is etched to remove the butadiene and create porosity.
The parts are treated and copper plated to provide a mechanical interlock to the etched plastic substrate, and to provide a metallic base coating.
Then they are nickel plated to provide the color.
They are then chrome plated (near transparent) to provide a hard surface protection for the nickel below.

Yes, chrome plastic parts like a car grille are copper/nickel/chrome over plastic.
A truck bumper is copper/nickel/chrome over a steel stamping.
I already explained how stainless was plated.

This likely won't mean much to you, but others may be interested.

[gweilbaker]

To the original poster,
If you are doing a driver and want to have nice looking bumpers; re-chroming (any process) is comparably more expensive than the Stainless Steel types that are offered by most of the Model A vendors. I've seen powder coat, it looks OK but it doesn't shine like chrome, the cost may sway a decision.
Good luck,
GW

Wow, I just checked the price of stainless bumpers, they went thru the roof! My statement would be good 15 years ago when I bought them.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Thanks to all of you. This discussion has cleared up a lot of questions I have had on plating. I won't give any tech advice though because I don't want my feelings hurt. I am a very sensitive guy.....

Maybe on these tech issues the posters should give their creds ahead of time so replies can be more useful? Oh jeez, there I go, now somebody is going to hurt my feelings.........

[PetesPonies]

Here is but one example of my experience with a chrome that has not been applied in a three step process. call it what you want . . but here are the results. I believe we all have/have been in touch with items chromed this way. Hundreds of items throughout your home or commercial businesses. I completely understand the reason based on usage and cost . . but I don't want them on the exterior of my vehicles. This is over stainless steel in this example.

[zzlegend]

If it means anything Pete. I restored a couple of Schwin Stingray Bikes a while back. Sent two sets of handlebars out to a local chrome shop. Got them back and while pushing the handgrips on the ends of the bars, there went the chrome curling up and peeling off, just like your picture. No copper, no nickel, just plain shiny steel underneath. You just cant beat a nice copper, nickel, chrome job as far as i am concerened. But its getting scarce here in Cali. Just my two cents.

[fordgarage]

No one ever said that any process would give good results if it was performed incorrectly.

There are lots of things in electroplating which can easily 'go wrong' or be performed wrong including cleanliness, chemicals and concentrations, time, temperatures, voltage, and current.

Peeling chrome is not an indictment of the topic, but of how it was performed on that particular part and process.

[PetesPonies]

I do Stingrays myself I'm trying to sort info here my. When I see a hard chromed part, I know there are no anodic layers to help with long term exposure. In a mechanical setting ( engine or such as I have brought up earlier ) those conditions are different. Oil will help keep the rusting processes controlled. But when parts are exposed to the outside weather conditions, anodic layers are needed. That is why , I thought, hard chroming was saved for stainless and other similar metal alloys that don't need the same anodic properties. But when hard chroming is done on my "normal" steels, it is a cheap coating at best. That is what I would like explained to me, and it is why I thought hard chromes is extensively considered an "engineering" finish rather than an exterior finish. Exterior finish is what we all want on out cars.

[28RPU]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Chrome plated plastics are made of ABS.
The ABS part is etched to remove the butadiene and create porosity.
The parts are treated and copper plated to provide a mechanical interlock to the etched plastic substrate, and to provide a metallic base coating.
Then they are nickel plated to provide the color.
They are then chrome plated (near transparent) to provide a hard surface protection for the nickel below.

Yes, chrome plastic parts like a car grille are copper/nickel/chrome over plastic.
A truck bumper is copper/nickel/chrome over a steel stamping.
I already explained how stainless was plated.

This likely won't mean much to you, but others may be interested.

Question: A few years back I got some plastic dash board items for a 67 Ford "rechromed" as they were chrome before. The company in Texas that did it (beautiful,by the way) told me they put the plastic in a vacuum chamber and pipe in powered aluminum dust to simulate chrome plating. Was he doing it a different way back then or are they many methods of doing it? I dont see how you can "plate" plastic since it can't attract the metallic particles.

[PetesPonies]

They still "chrome" plastic in the same way you describe, BUT, there are newer techniques used today as well. Some of the plastic coatings are pretty damn cool, the way they are applied. Covering are applied in water . . to name one technique and it gives you the ability to cover in a "chrome" look or about any other look you want.

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by 28RPU

Question: A few years back I got some plastic dash board items for a 67 Ford "rechromed" as they were chrome before. The company in Texas that did it (beautiful,by the way) told me they put the plastic in a vacuum chamber and pipe in powered aluminum dust to simulate chrome plating. Was he doing it a different way back then or are they many methods of doing it? I dont see how you can "plate" plastic since it can't attract the metallic particles.

Vacuum metallization is a process for applying via vapor deposition a thin layer of aluminum to a plastic. It is typically used for automotive lamp reflectors, even in cheap plastic flashlights.

Its main feature is its very high reflectivity, approaching silver, but it is very fragile and is also sensitive to environmental and chemical vapor exposure. It works reasonably well in sealed (tyvek vented) automotive headlamps, and is currently how most reflectors are finished for the last 20 years.

Chrome plated plastics are done as I described earlier. The plastic is first etched to create a porous surface to bond to, and it is treated with a tin/paladium catalyst to make it electrically active for the copper plating strike.

It is triple chrome plated, essentially the same as a metal part like zinc or steel.

If it is truly chrome plated, the primary reason the chrome peels is due to failure of the interface between the plastic and the copper. This is usually related to improper etching of the plastic resulting in the "wrong" porosity size and density of the etched surface.

Also, plated plastic is also sensitive to differential thermal expansion rates between the plastic and metal finish. They expand and contract at different rates during temperature changes, and this exerts additional stress on the bond interface.

[PetesPonies]

This is one of the processes to which I was referring. Your finish is basically limited to whatever you can have printed on the coating, thus limitless. They do a wood finish in the video, but a reflective mylar looks like chrome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIBiG_u0_wA

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

This is one of the processes to which I was referring. Your finish is basically limited to whatever you can have printed on the coating, thus limitless. They do a wood finish in the video, but a reflective mylar looks like chrome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIBiG_u0_wA

Pete,
Based on your many posts, you seem to have an extremely loose definition of the word 'chrome'.

However, chrome is not the many other things you have been talking about.

Chrome is a very specific material, which can be made to exhibit several appearances.
High luster bright chrome is the finish appearance primarily used on the Model A and most other automotive applications, in addition to a few satin and butler finish versions.

And FYI, mylar is polyester film.
It is not chrome, it does not look anything like chrome, and it cannot be chrome plated.
But if it is close enough for you, great!

[PetesPonies]

We were asked about plastic pieces, vacuum chrome finishes like are used on dash bezels etc. This is a new process that would work the same on those types of plastic pieces. I was answering someone else here . . again, stay out of it if not directed at you. I can't be more direct.

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

We were asked about plastic pieces, vacuum chrome finishes like are used on dash bezels etc. This is a new process that would work the same on those types of plastic pieces. I was answering someone else here . . again, stay out of it if not directed at you. I can't be more direct.

Who are you asking "to stay out of it?" Me?

"I was answering someone else here" Like who?

How would anyone know who your comments are directed to (not at), since you don't say.

You don't quote anything/any one in your posts, or make any proper pronoun references, so it is not clear who are you are referring to.

BTW, What new process?

What is a "new process that works the same"?

Geez what a case.

[fordgarage]

Has anyone tried woodgraining their bumpers using one of the hydrographic printing immersion film transfer processes?

I am getting tired of chrome appearance bumpers and want a new look.

[PetesPonies]

To anyone else interested here, I'd be glad to discuss anything having to do with this thread. I'm always interested in learning and teaching. I will not acknowledge a certain member here, but anyone else I'd be happy to discuss with.

[Terry Longest]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

To anyone else interested here, I'd be glad to discuss anything having to do with this thread. I'm always interested in learning and teaching. I will not acknowledge a certain member here, but anyone else I'd be happy to discuss with.

I think your comments have been in direct opposition to what you say above - "I'm interested in learning..." This forum may get testy, but usually interesting, when egos get involved!

[Craig Lewis]

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Originally Posted by PetesPonies

To anyone else interested here, I'd be glad to discuss anything having to do with this thread. I'm always interested in learning and teaching. I will not acknowledge a certain member here, but anyone else I'd be happy to discuss with.

I hope this doesn't get me added to your "certain member list" Pete, but it's seems to me there wasn't much left to discuss after Vince provided us with the info that his "no copper" chrome plated racks have withstood 12 yrs in the weather atop the roof of an Escalade of all things.
If you think about it, ALL chrome eventually succumbs to a combination of the elements, neglect & abuse.
When cars had chrome I used to spend hours on my knees polishing bumpers and wheels and they pretty much all had stains & pits & peeling issues to at least some degree if the car was 5 or 6 years old.
For Vince to get through the rigorous testing of such a large (albeit corrupt) company like GM and rectify their chrome troubles....and now proven 12yrs....I'd say they have the answer at least for that specific application.
I've done some simple home plating with nickle & copycad and can appreciate the enormous amount of time and learning involved, heck it's WAY harder to plate than learning to spray paint.
When my Model A bumpers go to the plater I'll want it done right, but I'll certainly look at new ideas for consideration.
At the end of the day, without keeping the chrome clean and polished and oiled at every bolt hole I wouldn't expect it to look perfect after even a year. The chrome we're familiar with is just metal and is subject to the same corrosive attacks as any other metal if not cared for.
If I can add one generalization, I don't see your average coked out Escalade driver/leaser as someone who lovingly cares for a roof rack.

[PetesPonies]

Craig, are you serious? One example makes it right? Just as one example doesn't make it wrong either. We have to consider hundreds, thousands etc. Over the years, which has lasted longer in an exposed environment?
Also, I haven't seen anyone respond to the anodic properties of the materials used. It's a very important part of plating and why certain materials are used in plating. Eliminating this area is problematic. Explain to me why it isn't?

[28RPU]

This is a thread looking for a closure icon....

[PetesPonies]

That's a possibility, but why wouldn't you want to see the concerns addressed? Do you understand how and why plating is done? What anodic properties are why they are significant? If you have no interest, you don't have to visit the thread. Isn't that how threads work? Personally I would like the person who has been in the plating business to address these items. I don't know what you are expecting . .

[Dave in Boise]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Has anyone tried woodgraining their bumpers using one of the hydrographic printing immersion film transfer processes?

I am getting tired of chrome appearance bumpers and want a new look.

LOL.. I can picture it now.. *everything* hydrodipped in wood grain, on a woody wagon.. It'd be quite a sight

- Dave in Boise

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Has anyone tried woodgraining their bumpers using one of the hydrographic printing immersion film transfer processes?

I am getting tired of chrome appearance bumpers and want a new look.

I was thinking of using a pressure treated 2X4. That would have the natural wood grain tossed in with all the little indentations. Cool!

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

That's a possibility, but why wouldn't you want to see the concerns addressed? Do you understand how and why plating is done? What anodic properties are why they are significant? If you have no interest, you don't have to visit the thread. Isn't that how threads work? Personally I would like the person who has been in the plating business to address these items. I don't know what you are expecting . .

The anodic properties are not an issue as chrome is almost passive after plating. A metal that is anodic, will protect the substrate from corrosion by corroding in preference. This is the way cadmium and zinc protect the substrate they are plated on, and if scratched, wil still protect the substrate to a certain degree. Corrosion protection from chrome actually comes from the nickel underneath, which does not protect anodicly, but anaerobic, it blocks the atmosphere. This is why as soon as there is a scratch, the substrate will corrode. Also, if chrome is plated directly, as in hard chrome, think motorcycle forks, shock pistons etc, then the substrate will corrode due to micro cracks is the chrome deposition. These micro cracks are good for a moving part as they will hold oil, but remove the oil, or not perform regular cleaning, then corrosion will start. Modern plating is different from plating performed in the Model A era, there are a lot of additives to solutions, which make the nickel brighter, self level etc, which save a lot in labour and associated costs, but are detrimental in other areas. Bright nickel, which is used under chrome nowadays, contains oxides to perform these brightening functions, but also makes them prone to quick oxidation if not chrome plated over the top. Chrome protects the chrome by corroding on the outer layer, forming a chrome oxide layer. This will slow down any other oxidation, but not stop it. This is protects the same as anodized aluminium. Why it doesn't last long nowadays, is because it is thinner plated layer, due to costs etc.
If you need further information, read a book called 'electroplating, surface finishing fundamentals' by Frederick Lowenheim or the 'cannings electroplating handbook'

[PetesPonies]

Dave, I realize that chrome is passive. Its the steel beneath that isn't. Therefore nickel is there to protect the steel, and also give the deep shine that we expect from "chromed" items. How can a hard chroming process over standard carbon steels be considered acceptable when used in an environment that will eventually go through the chromium? Not to mention the fact that it will not be as shiny as people would expect. Its considered, hard chroming, industrial chroming for a reason. It's thick, but not beautiful. What am I missing here Dave? Has the process changed such that beauty and protection can be achieved with a process that was/is considered industrial ?

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by 28RPU

This is a thread looking for a closure icon....

Yep.

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

Dave, I realize that chrome is passive. Its the steel beneath that isn't. Therefore nickel is there to protect the steel, and also give the deep shine that we expect from "chromed" items. How can a hard chroming process over standard carbon steels be considered acceptable when used in an environment that will eventually go through the chromium? Not to mention the fact that it will not be as shiny as people would expect. Its considered, hard chroming, industrial chroming for a reason. It's thick, but not beautiful. What am I missing here Dave? Has the process changed such that beauty and protection can be achieved with a process that was/is considered industrial ?

I really can't be bothered with this anymore. If you know so much, why don't you teach all of electroplaters what we're doing wrong.

[5window]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

Hey garage . . bite me. I don't need your criticism, not wanted at all.

Nice. Nothing establishes your credibility more than a well turned, intelligent phrase. For the OP, Paul's Librandi's and Advanced have good reps here on the right side of the country-calling them will give you a good estimate of costs. Over on the HAMB, there are quite a few discussions about platers in mexico, but the quality seems to vary

FWIW, I don't have a show car and bought polished SS bumpers from Mac's. I figured I would rue the day I bought chrome the first time I saw a spot of rust or a scratch. 8 years and the SS ones still look new. A '30/'31 complete front bumper from Mac's is $295 chrome and $347 stainless. I doubt you could rechrome your bumpers for anywhere near that, but a good chrome shop might give you a better job.

[PetesPonies]

See guys, here is what you don't know about and why you should keep your opinions to yourself. Your "favorite poster" has been harassing me for a while now. It has been done with disrespectful private messages. I turned them over to the moderators. So when I make a comment to him that you don't "approve" of, you have no idea what has been going on. Its as simple as that. I have not wanted to mention any of this, have said nothing until now. But you guys seem you have the need to hit me for the stuff I have posted. I am a professional in the automotive business. I have been for over 30 years. I do not need the criticism that I have gotten from this "person". All I ask of you guys here is to stay on topic and lets talk cars. Don't make any comments directed at a person. Are we all in school still?

Dave I have no idea why you have decided to act this way. I've only asked questions and have been respectful to you . . . .

[fordgarage]

Pot, meet kettle.

[Ryan]

I think it's time to start banning some folks. The drama is getting tired.

[Cob]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I think it's time to start banning some folks. The drama is getting tired.

Total Agreement.