Most potential power out of the Model A engine ?

[Special Coupe Frank]

I am curious as to how far one can reasonably go in boosting the power of the model A, and still have a streetable / reliable machine, in terms of HP output.

Some basic scenarios/parameters:

1) HC head

2) Performance Cam ( so-called Touring grind?)

3) improved induction ( bored-out intake, dual Zeniths, S-berg down draft, Webber down-draft, etc.)

4) Counterbalanced crank & lightened flywheel

5) Larger valves

6) Porting / relieveing ?

7) Insert bearings / pressure oiling

I guess I'm curious as to how much benefit each particular mod would achieve, and their cumulative effect, if combined in the same mill.

What's the practical limit on power out-put w/o turning it in to a "hand-grenade motor" ?

I know we're primarily a restoration-based group, so I really don't want to provoke any controversy; I think I am staying within the realm of mods often discussed and (usually?) tolerated by participants here...


Thanks !

SC Frank

[CA Victoria]

Dyno sheets fron Pirano's Antique Auto in Texas:

http://modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/dynosheets.html

[Rowdy]

I do not have the exact hp in front of me, but an engine built for the GR was close to 90 hp. It had one of Bill Stipes IB330 cams, a Brumfield head and a downdraft carburetor. I do not know what you are considering a touring cam as I have heard many people use the term, but it means something else to individual cam grinders, so results will differ. Rod

[columbiA]

In my coupe I run a 33 B with a 5.9 head and OD with 4.11 & 2.94 ratios and no other mods & I can pull all but the steepest hills in OD & cruise at 60 an average.I dont feel that any more power is needed and I live in a mountainous area.

[Loyd Nix]

I read up on a Stipes cam and it appears that to max its performance you should also perform several other modifications. It seemed to me that if you are inclined to do a full build it would be the way to go but if you just want to pep up ol' Betsy,as I did, just go with a HC head, a touring cam and a FS ignition. I am quite happy with the improvement.

[eagle]

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My uncle had an engine built by Ron Kelley for a peitenpol that put out around 100 hp.

[MrTube]

Uhoh,

Are we going to see you burning rubber and using the parking brake to slide around corners in NE PA?

[V4F]

i believe mine has approx. 80 hp . mild street motor . daily driver .......... nice motor by STAN VERMILE .

[P.S.]

I think I just figured out why we keep seeing all the Model A blocks with cracks in them...

[Special Coupe Frank]

Originally Posted by P.S.

I think I just figured out why we keep seeing all the Model A blocks with cracks in them...

Phooey.

The ones I'm discovering are stockers, not even re-bored. Some even have original factory pistons and valves.

Not saying there aren't "modified engines" with the same issues...

[Special Coupe Frank]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Uhoh,

Are we going to see you burning rubber and using the parking brake to slide around corners in NE PA?

Depends on whether or not I can get my hands on some of Granny Clampett's "Tonic"...

( Hell, I won't even need the car !!! )



SC Frank

[jcheshire31]

I'd talk to Ron Kelley about building an engine with power. He bought my grandpa's old AA and built an engine for it that he then pulled a flatbed trailer with his speedster on it wherever he went and still cruised around 50. But if that's the case I hope you have a deep wallet.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by jcheshire31

I'd talk to Ron Kelley about building an engine with power. He bought my grandpa's old AA and built an engine for it that he then pulled a flatbed trailer with his speedster on it wherever he went and still cruised around 50. But if that's the case I hope you have a deep wallet.

The old saying still holds true, "Horsepower costs"

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by columbiA

In my coupe I run a 33 B with a 5.9 head and OD with 4.11 & 2.94 ratios and no other mods & I can pull all but the steepest hills in OD & cruise at 60 an average.I dont feel that any more power is needed and I live in a mountainous area.

I agree.
I'd want a counterweighted crank, higher compression head, and a 3.27 rear end or overdrive, and I'd think you'd have a great touring car.

[Bill Stipe]

Cruises 70 On Interstate 90 from Iowa to home with pedal to spare and can run 55 MPH in second gear if needed and can peg the speedometer faster then you can believe with all of the above items. 3.54 gears no over drive.
I am so happy with this engine I am working on 6 more for all my cars and trucks.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

And now we return to our regularly scheduled broadcast! Bill W.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Bill Stipe

Cruises 70 On Interstate 90 from Iowa to home with pedal to spare and can run 55 MPH in second gear if needed and can peg the speedometer faster then you can believe with all of the above items. 3.54 gears no over drive.
I am so happy with this engine I am working on 6 more for all my cars and trucks.

can you give us more details about the motor. What kind of belt & pulley system is that?

[Bruce,Upstate NY]

What is the black box on the steering column?

[Bill Stipe]

Well Frank said it all in his first post on the topic!


1) HC head

2) Performance Cam ( so-called Touring grind?)

3) improved induction ( bored-out intake, dual Zeniths, S-berg down draft, Webber down-draft, etc.)

4) Counterbalanced crank & lightened flywheel

5) Larger valves

6) Porting / relieveing ?

7) Insert bearings / pressure oiling


I also run a light Alum flywheel with iron insert 25#, 7 to 1 CR head that I welded the chambers up and recut.
And then a new quality camshaft, but I can't say much here seems most guys have there mind made up on that one, all I can tell you is stay away from toooo much duration there is more then just lift and duration to a cam design.
Stay away from too much valve spring pressure these are basicly tractor engines with lots of torque high spring pressure just uses HP and is hard on the valve train.
Make sure everthing is blue printed and in perfect alignment. line hone is a must, no twisted or bend rods! and Balance every thing to the closest specs.
If you pressure the oil system again stay away form high pressure. High volume is more important that every thing is getting oiled, this engine ran a 20 # i wanted 35 but drilled a little too large of hole to squirt on the cam gear. I went back in to change that and wanted to look at every thing after a grueling 1600 miles and all my bearings look like the day I assembled them.
To me a centrifugal advance dist is a must for performance.
Also if you have a helper he has to be alert and not sleeping like my helper seems to be most the time!!

PS: the black box is for the nitrous!
I have a centrifugal advance dist so I use the spaark lever for my turn signal.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Bill Stipe

Well Frank said it all in his first post on the topic!


1) HC head

2) Performance Cam ( so-called Touring grind?)

3) improved induction ( bored-out intake, dual Zeniths, S-berg down draft, Webber down-draft, etc.)

4) Counterbalanced crank & lightened flywheel

5) Larger valves

6) Porting / relieveing ?

7) Insert bearings / pressure oiling


I also run a light Alum flywheel with iron insert 25#, 7 to 1 CR head that I welded the chambers up and recut.
And then a new quality camshaft, but I can't say much here seems most guys have there mind made up on that one, all I can tell you is stay away from toooo much duration there is more then just lift and duration to a cam design.
Stay away from too much valve spring pressure these are basicly tractor engines with lots of torque high spring pressure just uses HP and is hard on the valve train.
Make sure everthing is blue printed and in perfect alignment. line hone is a must, no twisted or bend rods! and Balance every thing to the closest specs.
If you pressure the oil system again stay away form high pressure. High volume is more important that every thing is getting oiled, this engine ran a 20 # i wanted 35 but drilled a little too large of hole to squirt on the cam gear. I went back in to change that and wanted to look at every thing after a grueling 1600 miles and all my bearings look like the day I assembled them.
To me a centrifugal advance dist is a must for performance.
Also if you have a helper he has to be alert and not sleeping like my helper seems to be most the time!!

PS: the black box is for the nitrous!
I have a centrifugal advance dist so I use the spaark lever for my turn signal.

Do you build engines for other people, or just yourself?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Tsk! Tsk! Bill, Your Research Cat is sleeping AGAIN! Was it his/her's fault that you drilled that oil hole too big?? Bill W.

[Bill Stipe]

Jordan,
Right now only for myself until I get my cars together. I am semi retiring soon and moving to Kentucky, I bought a small home and some land and will start to build a work shop hopefully next year. I may build engines at that time once my projects are done they have been sitting almost 30 years and this summer I turned 60 and decided it's time before I crap out.

If I do decide they will only be high end performance engines and only turn key ones that I have proved out and no changes or custom engines it is hard enough making an 80 year old engine perform like we some guys want (new car tech) I do not recommend running as hard as we did coming back from Iowa without an OD but once in a while one is force up on the Interstate and it is nice if you can run in the 60 to 65 MPH and stay in the slow lane.

I feel this engine will do that for a long time. I started designing my engine and components 10 years ago and a good friend of mine begged me 3 years ago for the first one (coarse he had deep pockets and said he didn't care about the cost) he goes to the Iowa speed meet every year with his heavy Fourdoor and now has over 16,000 miles on it. The standing joke when I call to see how its running is (Hank how the engnie running and he replies 38 pounds of oil pressure!!) These are both Model B engines and I did make a few small changes to my engine now but nothing to speak of, my next one is a Model A engine because the A engines are more readily available and the way I make my bearings one can use a B crank or aftermarket crank and have 1-7/8 bearing across the board for a much stiffer and stronger crank.

So I'm sorry but right now I'm not building engines for the public but would like to once Cindy and I have a little time to ourselfs and can do some more Tours and get to meet half you guys on the road or places. seems life is going so fast now!!
I am building a hill climb car and also would like to run at B-ville while I can still pee with out a Catheter!!---Bill Stipe

[Bill Stipe]

Bill,
The problem is Olie works 3rd shift and he is sleeping when I need him, kinda like my second born son Dieter!!
We won't get into that one. Yup Olie is a good mouser he is out all night hunting and usually brings back 3 mice a night from the neighbor hood or 1 mouse and a damn flea infested rabbit!!
Yes It was my fault on the hole it was not a problem when the rods where splash and I was in a hurry to finish the engine the night before the Iowa speed meet and forgot I wanted to smallerize the hole squirting on the back of the cam gear. I did take a pay cut on that and the rework I have to do for free!!--Bill Stipe

[southfork]

Bill, What 'centrifical advance distributor' do you use, or do you make your own?

[Bill Stipe]

Southfork, I have used several in the passed but this one is a dual point mallary that I have had the best performance, I did change the advance springs on this unit to my liking.

[Pete]

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...

Originally Posted by Special Coupe Frank

I am curious as to how far one can reasonably go in boosting the power of the model A, and still have a streetable / reliable machine, in terms of HP output.

Some basic scenarios/parameters:

1) HC head
10-1

2) Performance Cam ( so-called Touring grind?)
#4 Offy. Radius lifter.

3) improved induction ( bored-out intake, dual Zeniths, S-berg down draft, Webber down-draft, etc.)
2 Stromberg 48's on individual runner manifold.

4) Counterbalanced crank & lightened flywheel
BB crank with added counterweight.

5) Larger valves
Yes.
6) Porting / relieveing ?
4 intake ports. NO relieving.

7) Insert bearings / pressure oiling
Yes. Carrillo rods. 80 lb. oil pressure.

I guess I'm curious as to how much benefit each particular mod would achieve, and their cumulative effect, if combined in the same mill.
Each mod by itself probably would not gain much overall.
The cumulative effect on this engine was 168hp on the dyno with a 650
Holley carb. On the street with the 2 Stromberg's probably about 150.

What's the practical limit on power out-put w/o turning it in to a "hand-grenade motor" ?
The practical limit is most likely your wallet or your wife's ok.
There are "B" flathead Bonneville engines that make power undreamed of
by Henry Ford.
The engine described above was driven as a daily driver for 2 years, ran in several hillclimbs and ran one season in my vintage circle track car turning 6000 rpm twice a lap. Never had any problems with it.
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x...t=13204358.mp4

I know we're primarily a restoration-based group, so I really don't want to provoke any controversy; I think I am staying within the realm of mods often discussed and (usually?) tolerated by participants here...

The mods to this engine were expensive and way past what most people do, BUT, remember it was a DAILY driver with that engine. It's just dumb metal. These engines can be made super tough.

Thanks !

SC Frank

[pbishop]

I am 'way' interested in the fan/water pump on your 'wonderful' motor. I am 'SOOOO' tired of reworking my 'leak-less' water pumps that it is not funny. I can see the plastic fan and serpentine type belt, but I am really curious about the 'pump' set up. Can it be purchased or did you turn and mill it from bar stock?

[dumb person]

What about just a B size crank' and a low pressure turbo? It would keep it simple but if people saw the turbo they might give you funny looks.

[Bill Stipe]

Pbishop,
I may eventually sell the set up, but right now I want to stream line it and test it for a longer time period. The water connections are a little difficult and a fair amount of hand fitting. I will take some pictures of the fan support and pullies later and post.