boxing plates

[1929]

My friend keeps telling me to box the frame of my 1929 coupe, he thinks its proper since I have the whole car apart, to make it a stronger frame even though iam not changing the stock engine. Many tell me I shouldn't do it cause Iam not changing the engine, but he thinks I should even if some modification to the engine will create higher speeds. Should I box the frame or don't waste my time and money???

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by 1929

My friend keeps telling me to box the frame of my 1929 coupe, he thinks its proper since I have the whole car apart, to make it a stronger frame even though iam not changing the stock engine. Many tell me I shouldn't do it cause Iam not changing the engine, but he thinks I should even if some modification to the engine will create higher speeds. Should I box the frame or don't waste my time and money???

No not need. But you should check and make sure it is not bent down by the rear motor mount. This happens most of the time on the driver side. But can happen on both sides.

They were bent originally from the rough roads back in the day.

[Big hammer]

Not needed even with high compression head hot cam etc Straighten frame they can sag near rear engine mount if needed

[1929]

thanks for the info, other question, is it a good idea to get the MITCHELL OVERDRIVE?

[Tom Wesenberg]

If you want to drive faster than 45 I would use the 3.27 rear end gears or an overdrive, either the Mitchell or in a tranny change.

[Pickupman]

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I think you need to get a new friend. LOL

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by 1929

My friend keeps telling me to box the frame of my 1929 coupe, he thinks its proper since I have the whole car apart, to make it a stronger frame even though iam not changing the stock engine. Many tell me I shouldn't do it cause Iam not changing the engine, but he thinks I should even if some modification to the engine will create higher speeds. Should I box the frame or don't waste my time and money???

Sorry, but your friend doesn't know what he or she is talking about.

[1929]

can putting the boxing plates on the frame cause problems?

[Kevin in NJ]

Yes boxing the frame can make putting together a factory car with the same fasteners very difficult.

Keep in mind that the factory A was designed to run 60 MPH over very poor roads one would drive at the time.

And, YES the cars were run that way for many many miles.

If you want a reliable safe easy driving car that run 60+ MPH anywhere then rebuild the car back to factory specs on the chassis.

If you want a car that makes a lot of noise, is not reliable or easy to drive then rod it.

[1929]

Kevin,what about getting the dimpled box plates with numerous holes that are 2 inches or more

[Kevin in NJ]

Originally Posted by 1929

Kevin,what about getting the dimpled box plates with numerous holes that are 2 inches or more

Why?

To what ends?

If the car is powered by the stock engine (will even one with a lot more HP) it needs only to be mechanically restored back to factory specs. (Not to be confused with Judging Standards correct)

Once properly restored back to the factory specs you can beat the crap out of an A and it is happy. Take it out in to the woods and drive around the stuck 4 WD things. Get all 4 wheels in the air over the hill. Then get back on the highway and run 55+ MPH all the way home for hours on end.

The next day it will spend an hour in a parade and be happy as a clam (just how happy is a clam?).

Read all the period literature about how people used and abused the A when they were 3 year old used cars. They were not babied!!!!!

So again why does the A need a boxed frame? (Hint: it is a waste of time)

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by 1929

can putting the boxing plates on the frame cause problems?

The question you should be asking is, "Will it do any good?"

And the answer is "No."

[pooch]

Originally Posted by 1929

can putting the boxing plates on the frame cause problems?

Yes, you have to have threaded slugs to take the original bolts, but it is not necessary on under 200 Hp.

[rusted]

It sounds like you already have the plates to do the job and you are just waiting for someone on here to tell you that it is a good idea to do it. I don't think anyone is going to say it! If you are not going to put a 396 big block chevy in there, it is a waste of time.

[George Miller]

No need to do it, if you do you will have to change a lot of things that a stock A has. I run a 239 Flat head more than once with out the plates.
Here is a picture of my 1930 pickup with 1939 - 239 flathead. It was built from pieces so did not destroy a real truck. No boxing plates it is set up for a 4 cylinder also.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by 1929

My friend keeps telling me to box the frame of my 1929 coupe, he thinks its proper since I have the whole car apart, to make it a stronger frame even though iam not changing the stock engine. Many tell me I shouldn't do it cause Iam not changing the engine, but he thinks I should even if some modification to the engine will create higher speeds. Should I box the frame or don't waste my time and money???

Do what you want to do, but it is not necessary to spend the time and money to box a frame with a stock engine. Hot Rodded car, yes, stock no!

[Bob Bidonde]

The Model A's frame was designed to be flexible, so it has just the right amount of torsional stiffness. Boxing the side rails will change the stiffness of the frame and concentrate stresses where they should not be. I strongly recommend that you do not do it.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

The Model A's frame was designed to be flexible, so it has just the right amount of torsional stiffness. Boxing the side rails will change the stiffness of the frame and concentrate stresses where they should not be. I strongly recommend that you do not do it.

Thanks Bob. I thought I had read/heard that before, but couldn't remember where, so I didn't cite it.

[Barry B./ Ma.]

A fellow I knew had a 46 Merc. flathead in his 30 stock roadster and he had no problems, just didn't try to burn rubber every time he drove it.

[1929]

what about all the others that box a frame only because of a motor change, where does that stress go?

[Bob C]

Just box it, you know your going to do it no matter how
many say not to.

[Charlie Stephens]

As others have suggested, find a new friend. Be sure to run a good background check on the new friend. If you box the frame (which is not necessary) you will be creating a Frankenstein monster that no one will love. The restorers will reject it because it has a boxed frame and a hot rod person will reject it because it has a Model A engine. You will either have to keep it forever or sell it at a loss. If you run ’35 wire wheels they can easily be changed back. If you box a frame there is no going back.

Charlie Stephens

[1929]

I don't want to box it if wont help the frames stability or cause negative problems, there will be no cost to weld it, just the $200 for the plates, I just wish someone can tell me factual negatives, if it makes the frame stronger, why not? thanks for the info

[George Miller]

Well you got good advice. But If you want to make a mess of it go for it.

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by 1929

I just wish someone can tell me factual negatives...

Well, here they are (from the above posts)!

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Yes boxing the frame can make putting together a factory car with the same fasteners very difficult.

Originally Posted by pooch

Yes, you have to have threaded slugs to take the original bolts, but it is not necessary on under 200 Hp.

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

The Model A's frame was designed to be flexible, so it has just the right amount of torsional stiffness. Boxing the side rails will change the stiffness of the frame and concentrate stresses where they should not be. I strongly recommend that you do not do it.

[Bob Bidonde]

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If you box the frame, the stiffness changes and the stresses concentrate at places where the boxing plates end. This is basic physics.

Boxing is usually discontinuous at the cross-members, so where the cross-members attach to the side rails are places where the stresses will concentrate. How long the frame will last after boxing the rails I do not know. It's a complex fatigue life analysis. I suspect that the rivets attaching the cross-members to the side rails are the weakest link, so these should be checked often on a boxed frame.

Boxing the rails is old school. Today street rodders put the body on a new frame with modern suspension because boxing the frame was marginal at best.

[Tom Wesenberg]

If you are determined to do something to your frame, add stay rods, like train cars use.

I would make sure the frame is straight and do nothing more.

[ursus]

I have a coupe that was reconstructed from parts - 1929 frame with 30-31 front crossmember, 1931 indented firewall body on 1930 fenders and running boards - go figure. The guy who put it together straightened the frame and welded in 1/4 inch steel plate on both frame rails just aft of the engine mounts to box and stiffen the frame. He had planned to drop in a V8 but never quite got there, so put back the Model A engine and drivetrain and drove it to work every day. He also installed 1940 Ford brakes with some more welding on the steel plate for a master cylinder mount.

The car rides and drives well but has a slightly different feel than a Model A. I think its the opposite of what happens when somebody puts in Float-A-Motor mounts, because some of the usual flexing of the frame is missing and so the ride is a bit stiffer. I see no advantage other than a frame that is not likley to sag in the midsection. The car looks very original from 10 feet away but, due to all the modifications, the value of the car will never approach that of an original Model-A.

[Wolfes Metal Fab]

Im only responding to this post, as I was contacted and asked for my opinion and shown this thread, and asked to give my input. As a disclaimer, i do sell boxing plates, but i think you can see by my posts, i still give an honest opinion on if they are needed. Also, i do restore/streetrod cars on a daily basis, so my idea of easy or something being a problem or not, may be slightly different than someone who has never done it before, but then again, maybe not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ
Yes boxing the frame can make putting together a factory car with the same fasteners very difficult.

Not any more difficulty than restoring a building a car. Make a plan and find solutions to any problems during the planning period, not after the fact. This should not be a deciding factor for doing or not doing the boxing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pooch
Yes, you have to have threaded slugs to take the original bolts, but it is not necessary on under 200 Hp.

For threaded slugs, regular nuts will work just fine and should be very easy and cheap to get. Just weld them in the needed places before boxing the frame. If you want to go further than this, you can get "Cage" Nuts that allow some movement of the thread, but hold it from turning. If you forget something that is not a critical suspension, motor, body, etc mount, then nutzerts will work, although not my first choice. This is also not enough of a problem to say don't do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde
The Model A's frame was designed to be flexible, so it has just the right amount of torsional stiffness. Boxing the side rails will change the stiffness of the frame and concentrate stresses where they should not be. I strongly recommend that you do not do it.


If boxing the frame, why not box the whole thing? Then there is no drop off of stiffness for the stresses to concentrate at. You can also weld in the crossmembers to make it even stronger and more rigid yet. They were designed and made how they were, although since then, cars have been made with a much stronger frame that is less prone to flexing. Everybody has got an opinion on this one and each is probably different.


Is it absolutely necessary on a stock Model A, no. Is it a life or death choice one way or the other, no. It is an option and a choice. Would I do it on a stock model A, probably not, why, because i would be building a hotrod instead. And i would definitely box the frame on it, probably with Dimples!

Here is an interesting link explaining an unboxed chassis having motor cranks breaking until they boxed the frame. Interesting!
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/additio...ing-the-frame/

There are many others if you just google "boxing model a frame" and you can add in "stock" if you like. Then you can get many different peoples views and opinions to make your own decision, as i will not tell you you have to, or you shouldn't, but i will sell you the plates if you want to.


Brian Wolfe
Wolfes Metal Fabrication

[pooch]

Boxing plates alone do not do much, a K or X member does most of the work in reducing
torsional flex.

An X member is the best if you can shoehorn it in to a model A .

I have two rods with boxed chassis and on the second one I made a much stronger K member and it certainly shows on a rough road.

[Flathead]

Well....these cars were designed by actual engineers who I doubt were idiots. They have been out in the world for 85 years give or take, driven hard on rough roads, been through tough years of the depression, neglected and abused. Amazingly there are quite a few left standing, but we should run out and box the frame rails because they aren't strong enough? I think not.

[Tom Walker]

In my opinion you will not improve the ride of your fairly stock car by boxing the frame.

Have you asked yourself exactly what you are trying to achieve?

Again, this is only my experience, but I think you would be better spending your time and cash by fitting panhard bars front and back.

[hardtimes]

Hey Brian,
Thanks for your lucid /thoughtful input.
1929,
If you are going to use that original 4 banger A/B engine, even warmed up , you should just make sure that the frame is straight, IMO and experience. Ford and others left the Model A frame behind when going to MORE power and beefed up their stock frames more/more as power was added.

War story !
Many decades ago, I had a '31 Model A roadster with a full house 265 cu in. Chevy engine with 2 four barrel AFBs. Frame not boxed at all. I'm basically a putter/driver and I loved how that roadster drove/rode. It also had chev three speed and rear end. It would flex hard under power, so I drove it gently 99% of the time , so that it would last...and it did last !
Only time that I ever remember using the progressive linkage and the second AFB was to 'dust off' some clown in a Plum Crazy colored car with a giant wing on the rear and a paper dealer plate on it...yeah, he asked /begged for it !
The A frame held up real well ....unboxed, at least till I traded it off for a 1955 corvette. Your choice, have fun, eh

[1929]

The frame is off, just finished being sand blasted, checked out no bends no cracks, its in great shape ready to be boxed with dimples, nothing wrong with a great total restoration.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by 1929

The frame is off, just finished being sand blasted, checked out no bends no cracks, its in great shape ready to be boxed with dimples, nothing wrong with a great total restoration.

If it is great shape after 85 years and it is going to a Model A engine, why do you want to box it You do know that if you box all the frame, your rear motor mounts will not fit, your steering gear will not fit. Don,t forget to weld all the nuts to the frame that you cannot reach after the boxing is added.

Yes I have boxed a few hot rod Model A frames over the years, good luck.

[700rpm]

My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts.

[1929]

those are not facts, just opinions

[rusted]

I knew he was going to do it!!!!~

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by rusted

I knew he was going to do it!!!!~

X2

Bob

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by 1929

The frame is off, just finished being sand blasted, checked out no bends no cracks, its in great shape ready to be boxed with dimples, nothing wrong with a great total restoration.

Modification is not restoration. Call it what it is. Another one bites the dust.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by 1929

those are not facts, just opinions

Is there a message in the fact that most of the opinions point in the same direction? One small light at the end of the tunnel is that when you can't sell the car to a restorer you can sell it to a street rodder. Having the frame boxed will make it easier to install a late model V8 that needs a boxed frame.

Charlie Stephens

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by 1929

those are not facts, just opinions

Sorry, but you're wrong. Facts are facts, and you seem to be choosing to be willfully ignorant, and there is no help for that. You have come to a restoration forum and asked for non-restoration advice, and have been given excellent answers from experienced Model A guys who know what they're talking about. If you didn't want that advice, why did you ask the question? You should take this issue over to the hot rod forum and get the answer you want.

[pooch]

I would like to know what 'dimples' are ....

Are they holes in the boxing plates to allow access to nuts ?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by rusted

I knew he was going to do it!!!!~

Originally Posted by Bob C

X2

Bob

Even the fabrication guy that sells the plates, said it was not necessary and listed all the extra effort needed to bolt things to the frame, but he came here with his mind made up and now he is insulted because he wasted 200 bucks on plates that are not needed and will lower the resale price of his otherwise stock A. He is going to prove us wrong and do it anyway. Any wonder why there are so many 1/2 completed projects out there?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by 1929

The frame is off, just finished being sand blasted, checked out no bends no cracks, its in great shape ready to be boxed with dimples, nothing wrong with a great total restoration.

Restoration - the action of returning something to a former condition.

Which Model A ever had a boxed frame?

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by pooch

I would like to know what 'dimples' are ....

Are they holes in the boxing plates to allow access to nuts ?

Yes they have holes in them as opposed to solid plates that would make a true box.

[pooch]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Restoration - the action of returning something to a former condition.

Which Model A ever had a boxed frame?

What model A has an overdrive, an F100 steering box, a high compression head, an inserted motor, brake floaters...etc .

[pooch]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Yes they have holes in them as opposed to solid plates that would make a true box.

So, why don't they call them HOLES....

A dimple in a cheek is not a hole, it is an INDENTATION.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by pooch

what model a has an overdrive, an f100 steering box, a high compression head, an inserted motor, brake floaters...etc .

exactly!!!!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by pooch

So, why don't they call them HOLES....

A dimple in a cheek is not a hole, it is an INDENTATION.

I did not name them. If you think I'm lying google "dimpled boxing plates".

[1929]

A willfully ignorant person is someone who just chatters to much and cant prove his point, its amazing how some feel so insulted by a simple question of change but cant prove their point by speaking so much nonsense, iam sure this car will end up better then maybe yours by changes such as changing all rusted and rotted sub rails and extension rails, preventing the frame from any damage that has occurred to many before, new shocks, Mitchell overdrive, a rebuilt motor that doesn't leak oil in the garage, new wires, new tires, new brakes etc, relax this is just a simple conversation, not a debate about the President.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by 1929

A willfully ignorant person is someone who just chatters to much and cant prove his point, its amazing how some feel so insulted by a simple question of change but cant prove their point by speaking so much nonsense, iam sure this car will end up better then maybe yours by changes such as changing all rusted and rotted sub rails and extension rails, preventing the frame from any damage that has occurred to many before, new shocks, Mitchell overdrive, a rebuilt motor that doesn't leak oil in the garage, new wires, new tires, new brakes etc, relax this is just a simple conversation, not a debate about the President.

I think you forgot your original and only question;

"Should I box the frame or don't waste my time and money???"

You received overwhelming response, a 100% response, that you would wasting your time and money.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I think you forgot your original and only question;

"Should I box the frame or don't waste my time and money???"

You received overwhelming response, a 100% response, that you would wasting your time and money.

His mind was made up, so this whole thread was a waste.

[zzlegend]

SO,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,who is going to win the super bowl?????????

[George Miller]

Some times it makes me wounder why we try to help people.But I think he was just rattling our cage.

[Wolfes Metal Fab]

For those that are asking, Dimpled holes are like the ones pictured in my avatar. For the projects that people do want to box the frame (not for everybody), some people like solid plates, some like Drilled (holes only) and some like Dimpled (holes cut and then pressed to give it the indented flare as you see in my avatar). So I have all of them available.

Not trying to continue the hostility, hopefully it can stop, because i dont like it, and it doesn't matter to me if he boxes it or not, its up to him, but i think both sides of the argument may feel like derogatory defense is necessary as they get frustrated to protect their opinions or ideas. If we could just share our opinions and recommendations with a little bit more of a kind and gently heart, without having to jump to an arguing defense mechanism, we would all probably be a little happier and less stressed, and sometimes that works a little better to help the other party see your way and consider it. If something is taken as a personal attack, the other party is probably far less to even consider your option/opinion.

"A hot-tempered person stirs up conflict, but the one who is patient calms a quarrel."


Brian

[Tom Wesenberg]

"A hot-tempered person stirs up conflict, but the one who is patient calms a quarrel."

I'm still patiently waiting for the answer I want to hear.

[eeyore]

The winner will be the one with the most points at the end of the game with the most air in the ball.

[zzlegend]

Originally Posted by eeyore

The winner will be the one with the most points at the end of the game with the most air in the ball.

Yep,,,,,,

[Flathead]

As long as it isn't more than 13.5 psi.

[Super88]

Just don't be surprised if you ask for additional help in the future and don't receive a response.

[edmondclinton]

Originally Posted by 1929

My friend keeps telling me to box the frame of my 1929 coupe, he thinks its proper since I have the whole car apart, to make it a stronger frame even though iam not changing the stock engine. Many tell me I shouldn't do it cause Iam not changing the engine, but he thinks I should even if some modification to the engine will create higher speeds. Should I box the frame or don't waste my time and money???

Are you the friend?