The Ford Barn

Juergen · 03-23-2015, 10:33 AM

[QUOTE=V8COOPMAN;1055079]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juergen

QUOTE]

Kube.......... he will also sell you a collectible unstamped VIN plate. QUOTE]

Juergen .......When was the last time you saw a "VIN plate" mounted on one of these old Fords? DD

He sold a guy a Chevrolet VIN plate to go with his Chevy title.

And on the question of keeping the title but selling the frame with the parts car, the guy bought a hot rod frame and used his old VIN on it which was accepted by the Indiana DOT. In Iowa they guy that bought the frame had to add an A to the end of his VIN number.

Kube · 03-23-2015, 10:42 AM

[QUOTE=Juergen;1055637]

Quote:

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

He sold a guy a Chevrolet VIN plate to go with his Chevy title.

And on the question of keeping the title but selling the frame with the parts car, the guy bought a hot rod frame and used his old VIN on it which was accepted by the Indiana DOT. In Iowa they guy that bought the frame had to add an A to the end of his VIN number.

Okay, selling stamped VIN plates is always illegal. BIG TIME illegal.
There was guy in this area that had a box of the GM rivets used to install the plates. He was selling them as I recall for $50 a pair. He ended up serving time for that paltry sum.

tubman · 03-23-2015, 11:42 AM

One of my other areas of interest is vintage Corvettes. This sort of thing is a much larger problem there than here, believe me. From all I know, Kube is absolutely right in everything he says. I know a guy that has to be careful which states he journeys to, as there are multiple GTA warrants out for him for doing just what is being discussed here.

mhsprecher · 03-23-2015, 12:36 PM

This helps one understand why DMVs are so difficult to deal with. There is lots of monkey business going on - to say the least. I wish it weren't that way, but there are a lot of dishonest people and con artists out there. I was at Maryland MVA this morning. Nothing title related, but what zoo. It works reasonably well, but what a mass of humanity there.

Cecil/WV · 03-23-2015, 12:49 PM

I was in a trophy shop near by a while back and the lady that runs the shop showed me a new blank VIN plate that a customer had brought in to have her laser engrave a VIN # on for him for a car he was wanting to get a title for. I asked her if the WV DMV was going to accept it and she told me he had some concerns about that and I don't know how it turned out.

But I would like to know!

tubman · 03-23-2015, 02:05 PM

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I have a Homebuilt "T" touring (fabricated frame and fiberglass body) that I jumped through all the hoops in Minnesota to obtain a Homebuilt title. This is probably the only way that making your own VIN tag is allowed. I talked to the trophy people in town, and no one was able to produce a tag acceptable to me. I found a placed called "HalterTags.com" that makes, well, tags for tack, and ordered my tags. They are beautiful. I think people with fancy horses are more demanding than us car guys. Just a tip for those few who may go this way.

Old Redneck · 03-23-2015, 02:20 PM

Pa. has got so rough on titles that both seller and buyer has to be there and a copy of driver license also has to be there. Its not like the old days here.

Charlie Stephens · 03-23-2015, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CC33

The DMV can be painful to deal with. I had a WWII German vehicle that I wanted to register. The DMV queen told me I needed to get the original owners record of ownership to register it. All I had was a Bill of Sale, no Title. I said, "ya well I'm sure the original owner is dead now as he probably didn't keep the records in his rucksack while attacking Stalingrad". Followed up the following week and registered it no problem with another clerk.
The story of the '32 in Cali with the same VIN is scary. What are the references to Coddington referred to?

Boyd Coddington was a very talented high end car builder that got in trouble a few years back for being a little too creative on registering cars. It was mostly a tax evasion issue. Try google. There is a brief summary here: http://www.hotrod.com/news/0410sr-st...tential-fraud/. It was interesting to note that the state seized his business records and started looking up the cars that he had built.

Charlie Stephens

funrunr · 03-23-2015, 02:37 PM

Ok, I have a question. I have 4 frames from 4 different 40 fords with titles and matching transmissions. 3 of the bodies will never be complete again as they were too far gone as for rust. I'm selling the frames with the transmissions and titles to match. After all, the bodies never had VIN numbers and only the frames and trans did. Does this seam legal to do? I know this could lead to wrong doing but so could buying a junky 40 just for the title. I have no use for the titles and feel they belong to the frame and transmission. Please give your opinions.

V8COOPMAN · 03-23-2015, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funrunr

Ok, I have a question. I have 4 frames from 4 different 40 fords with titles and matching transmissions. 3 of the bodies will never be complete again as they were too far gone as for rust. I'm selling the frames with the transmissions and titles to match. After all, the bodies never had VIN numbers and only the frames and trans did. Does this seam legal to do? I know this could lead to wrong doing but so could buying a junky 40 just for the title. I have no use for the titles and feel they belong to the frame and transmission. Please give your opinions.

I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may tend to.......well, you've heard it before. Title stays with the serial #s. DD

tubman · 03-23-2015, 03:02 PM

Do the Dennis Carpenter '40 bodies come with a VIN? I looked (not very hard) and can't find any indication either way. If they don't, I got to believe that '40 frames with titles will be more valuable as time passes.

JSeery · 03-23-2015, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funrunr

Ok, I have a question. I have 4 frames from 4 different 40 fords with titles and matching transmissions. 3 of the bodies will never be complete again as they were too far gone as for rust. I'm selling the frames with the transmissions and titles to match. After all, the bodies never had VIN numbers and only the frames and trans did. Does this seam legal to do? I know this could lead to wrong doing but so could buying a junky 40 just for the title. I have no use for the titles and feel they belong to the frame and transmission. Please give your opinions.

Have no idea what would be wrong with selling a frame with a title, that is where the number is and the title needs to go with the frame/number. The body has no identification to that frame that I am aware of. That is what increases the value of a frame is having a title attached.

V8COOPMAN · 03-23-2015, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman

Do the Dennis Carpenter '40 bodies come with a VIN? I looked (not very hard) and can't find any indication either way. If they don't, I got to believe that '40 frames with titles will be more valuable as time passes.

You can bet your last dollar that "they" do NOT come with a VIN. Pretty sure that a VIN is assigned along with an MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) during the process for subsequent titling purposes as a manufactured motor vehicle on public roadways. Of course, "those" '40s have no "motor", not to mention the fact that they obviously do not meet current motor vehicle manufacturing standards in a multitude of different ways. That body builder also does not incur the same liability, environmental, crash test and safety requirements as a new vehicle manufacturer, either. Yup, they'll need a serial # arrangement somewhere along the way.

Keep in mind this MSO that vehicles begin life with for the past many years. The vehicle begins life outside the factory door WITHOUT a title......ONLY the MSO. This fits right in line with what KUBE said earlier. The vehicle's first title is created (and is realistically owned) by the first state that it becomes titled in, via surrendering it's MSO to that state in the original titling process. DD

tubman · 03-23-2015, 06:39 PM

I didn't think they would have had a VIN, seeing no frame, driveline, suspension, etc. Since there are no body numbers on most old Ford bodies, I would not expect the average DMV clerk or even a LEO would be able to detect that a finished car was not what what it appears to be. funrunr, if I were you, I'd hold onto those '40 components for a while.

Kube · 03-23-2015, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman

I have a Homebuilt "T" touring (fabricated frame and fiberglass body) that I jumped through all the hoops in Minnesota to obtain a Homebuilt title. This is probably the only way that making your own VIN tag is allowed. I talked to the trophy people in town, and no one was able to produce a tag acceptable to me. I found a placed called "HalterTags.com" that makes, well, tags for tack, and ordered my tags. They are beautiful. I think people with fancy horses are more demanding than us car guys. Just a tip for those few who may go this way.

Tubman, your comments struck my funny bone as we have used that company for halter tags on all of our horses. They do a much better job than the two local trophy shops could handle.

barnfind · 03-23-2015, 09:50 PM

Technically, VIN numbers did NOT exist prior to 1954 per Wikipedia research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle...ication_number

"A vehicle identification number, commonly abbreviated to VIN, is a unique code including a serial number, used by the automotive industry to identify individual motor vehicles, towed vehicles, motorcycles, scooters and mopeds as defined in ISO 3833.

VINs were first used in 1954.[1] From 1954 to 1981, there was no accepted standard for these numbers, so different manufacturers used different formats.

In 1981, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the United States standardized the format.[1] It required all over-the-road-vehicles sold to contain a 17-character VIN, which does not include the letters I (i), O (o), or Q (q) (to avoid confusion with numerals 1 and 0)."

Most of the discussion has been about frame serial numbers that were used by states that had or currently have titles.

States that do not issue titles on old vehicles seem to either issue either a new "VIN tag", accept legible number on the frame, or accept something riveted on the body the that looks like "VIN tag" to the inspecting officer. Just an opinion from looking at numerous sales or opportunities to buy.

Most recently, I just sold a 1950 non Ford (estate sale from out of state) that the current title showed the "VIN" number adhering to the correct 17 digit ISO format. However, the original 1950 "ID Plate" mounted on the car body only had a subset of the "VIN" as documented on the Title because that state's computer system apparently will not accept less than 17 digits.

It this case the only way to know what "VIN" number that was recorded on the title would be to actually see the title. My guess is the same "VIN" number will be recorded differently in the new state when it is registered if that state computer system only accepts 17 digit numbers.

So was this sale "illegal" because the ID plate did not match the title?
It probably depends which state DMV your are dealing with - it's just part of the fun of dealing with antiques.

bobH · 03-23-2015, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CC33

The DMV can be painful to deal with. I had a WWII German vehicle that I wanted to register. The DMV queen told me I needed to get the original owners record of ownership to register it. All I had was a Bill of Sale, no Title. I said, "ya well I'm sure the original owner is dead now as he probably didn't keep the records in his rucksack while attacking Stalingrad". Followed up the following week and registered it no problem with another clerk.
The story of the '32 in Cali with the same VIN is scary. What are the references to Coddington referred to?

I'm the guy with the duplicate 32 title. I keep telling myself that I should be ok. I have the original 32 frame, with genuine numbers, stamped by Ford, correct characters, correct stars, stamped in the three locations that we've come to believe should be. My only curiosity is that there is no 18- (and no B-), and no room between the star and the first digit. I believe I have a 'real' 32 frame. The 'other guy' has the original title, with an 18-, and he built a street rod on a reproduction frame. I think if there was a problem, it would be for the 'other guy' to explain how he has the same numbers on his new frame. I think he was careless to sell off his old frame, without first destroying the ID numbers. If he had destroyed the numbers, then the registration problem would have become mine.
(The 'other guy' has had his title and registration for many many years. I've only had the frame registered to me for a few years, about 8.) (He is a 'local guy', lives fairly close to Charlie, and not really too far from me. His car has been seen by friends in efv8 club.)

41LINC · 03-23-2015, 10:55 PM

I have never thought about this , I have MANY original titles that I have saved through the years , after scrapping the cars. They are mostly WI titles ; I just saved them as a collection .

blucar · 03-24-2015, 10:47 AM

It has been my experience that a person never knows he has a problem with vehicle identification, serial number/VIN until the problems arises, either via a vehicle sale/purchase or the relocation of the vehicle to another state, which required verification of the "VIN".
Case in point; my brother is the owner of a '37 Ford 4dr sdn, which he had owned for over twenty years here in CA. The car was "reputedly" a one owner barn find that my brother purchased from a well known local EV8F member.
My brother decided to move to Idaho taking the '37 with him. The car had to be inspected in Idaho to verify the numbers, serial and license. No problem on the license plates, the numbers matched the title/registration. A problem was found with the serial number, the number on the frame did not match the numbers on the paper work.
Mind you now my brother had owned the car for over twenty years and had the registration cards to prove it..
As a general practice, Idaho required a surrounding state "sweep" on the serial number, nothing turned up. California was contacted, CA records showed that the vehicle belonged to my brother with no question on the serial number.
A verification of the serial number on the frame revealed that the number was correct for a '37 Ford. The number on the title was also correct for a '37 Ford. It was obvious that the numbers on the title had not been altered, nor were they a typo mistake, the only assumption that could be made was that the title belonged to a car completely different from my brothers car.
Cool heads prevailed, Idaho issued a new title containing the number stamped into the frame, the original CA title was destroyed.
There is no doubt in my mind that the car is, was a "barn find", however, the truth of the matter is that the car did not have any paper work, someone, either the guy my brother bought the car from, or someone else secured a '37 Ford title, "marrying the two together" with no thought about the numbers matching.
When my brother contacted me about the number issue I got hold of the guy that my brother had purchased the car from, of course he denied any knowledge of there being a serial number issue.
What many people fail to understand, is that with the proliferation of information now available in the computer age, it is very easy to push a couple of buttons and up pops the correct number sequence for any given vehicle...

rotorwrench · 03-24-2015, 12:33 PM

A friend of mine purchased a motorcycle for a lower than normal price about 20 years back. He went to the DMV to get it registered and found out why the price was so low. The guy he had bought it from had 2 bikes with the same VIN so that he could just swap the plates to drive them both, just not at the same time. The bike my friend purchased was correcly stamped and looked like factory (which it was). The other bike, still owned by the turd that sold it to him, was crudely stamped but had a custom motor & frame (a real hack job). It was likely a stolen bike but the DMV nor the DPS would do anything about it since he had the clear title issued by the state. My friend elected to just ride the bike illegally since he couldn't afford another one and the guy he bought it from wouldn't give his money back (this was before the lemon law was passed in Texas). My friend was eventually stopped by Johnny Law and the bike was impounded as stolen property. Since it was never claimed in the allotted 30-day time period, the state issued it a new tittle and sold it at auction. It's funny how the state can get away with that but you and me can't! My friend learned a hard lesson on that one since he was out over 3 grand for a bike he never really owned. He could have retitled it with a custom frame but he was too cheep to do that. Oh Well!

03-23-2015, 11:42 AM	#43
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,319	Re: Car title value. One of my other areas of interest is vintage Corvettes. This sort of thing is a much larger problem there than here, believe me. From all I know, Kube is absolutely right in everything he says. I know a guy that has to be careful which states he journeys to, as there are multiple GTA warrants out for him for doing just what is being discussed here.

03-23-2015, 12:36 PM	#44
mhsprecher Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Takoma Park, MD Posts: 2,817	Re: Car title value. This helps one understand why DMVs are so difficult to deal with. There is lots of monkey business going on - to say the least. I wish it weren't that way, but there are a lot of dishonest people and con artists out there. I was at Maryland MVA this morning. Nothing title related, but what zoo. It works reasonably well, but what a mass of humanity there.

03-23-2015, 12:49 PM	#45
Cecil/WV Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gerrardstown, WV Posts: 2,266	Re: Car title value. I was in a trophy shop near by a while back and the lady that runs the shop showed me a new blank VIN plate that a customer had brought in to have her laser engrave a VIN # on for him for a car he was wanting to get a title for. I asked her if the WV DMV was going to accept it and she told me he had some concerns about that and I don't know how it turned out. But I would like to know!

03-23-2015, 02:05 PM	#46
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,319	Re: Car title value. Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I have a Homebuilt "T" touring (fabricated frame and fiberglass body) that I jumped through all the hoops in Minnesota to obtain a Homebuilt title. This is probably the only way that making your own VIN tag is allowed. I talked to the trophy people in town, and no one was able to produce a tag acceptable to me. I found a placed called "HalterTags.com" that makes, well, tags for tack, and ordered my tags. They are beautiful. I think people with fancy horses are more demanding than us car guys. Just a tip for those few who may go this way.

03-23-2015, 02:20 PM	#47
Old Redneck Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Waynesburg,Pa. Posts: 1,910	Re: Car title value. Pa. has got so rough on titles that both seller and buyer has to be there and a copy of driver license also has to be there. Its not like the old days here.

03-23-2015, 02:37 PM	#49
funrunr Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Belleville,MI Posts: 1,427	Re: Car title value. Ok, I have a question. I have 4 frames from 4 different 40 fords with titles and matching transmissions. 3 of the bodies will never be complete again as they were too far gone as for rust. I'm selling the frames with the transmissions and titles to match. After all, the bodies never had VIN numbers and only the frames and trans did. Does this seam legal to do? I know this could lead to wrong doing but so could buying a junky 40 just for the title. I have no use for the titles and feel they belong to the frame and transmission. Please give your opinions. __________________ Thank God this is only a hobby!

03-23-2015, 03:02 PM	#51
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,319	Re: Car title value. Do the Dennis Carpenter '40 bodies come with a VIN? I looked (not very hard) and can't find any indication either way. If they don't, I got to believe that '40 frames with titles will be more valuable as time passes.

03-23-2015, 06:39 PM	#54
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,319	Re: Car title value. I didn't think they would have had a VIN, seeing no frame, driveline, suspension, etc. Since there are no body numbers on most old Ford bodies, I would not expect the average DMV clerk or even a LEO would be able to detect that a finished car was not what what it appears to be. funrunr, if I were you, I'd hold onto those '40 components for a while.

03-23-2015, 09:50 PM	#56
barnfind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 426	Re: Car title value. Technically, VIN numbers did NOT exist prior to 1954 per Wikipedia research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle...ication_number "A vehicle identification number, commonly abbreviated to VIN, is a unique code including a serial number, used by the automotive industry to identify individual motor vehicles, towed vehicles, motorcycles, scooters and mopeds as defined in ISO 3833. VINs were first used in 1954.[1] From 1954 to 1981, there was no accepted standard for these numbers, so different manufacturers used different formats. In 1981, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the United States standardized the format.[1] It required all over-the-road-vehicles sold to contain a 17-character VIN, which does not include the letters I (i), O (o), or Q (q) (to avoid confusion with numerals 1 and 0)." Most of the discussion has been about frame serial numbers that were used by states that had or currently have titles. States that do not issue titles on old vehicles seem to either issue either a new "VIN tag", accept legible number on the frame, or accept something riveted on the body the that looks like "VIN tag" to the inspecting officer. Just an opinion from looking at numerous sales or opportunities to buy. Most recently, I just sold a 1950 non Ford (estate sale from out of state) that the current title showed the "VIN" number adhering to the correct 17 digit ISO format. However, the original 1950 "ID Plate" mounted on the car body only had a subset of the "VIN" as documented on the Title because that state's computer system apparently will not accept less than 17 digits. It this case the only way to know what "VIN" number that was recorded on the title would be to actually see the title. My guess is the same "VIN" number will be recorded differently in the new state when it is registered if that state computer system only accepts 17 digit numbers. So was this sale "illegal" because the ID plate did not match the title? It probably depends which state DMV your are dealing with - it's just part of the fun of dealing with antiques.

03-23-2015, 10:55 PM	#58
41LINC Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 27	Re: Car title value. I have never thought about this , I have MANY original titles that I have saved through the years , after scrapping the cars. They are mostly WI titles ; I just saved them as a collection .

03-24-2015, 10:47 AM	#59
blucar Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Ventura, CA Posts: 2,464	Re: Car title value. It has been my experience that a person never knows he has a problem with vehicle identification, serial number/VIN until the problems arises, either via a vehicle sale/purchase or the relocation of the vehicle to another state, which required verification of the "VIN". Case in point; my brother is the owner of a '37 Ford 4dr sdn, which he had owned for over twenty years here in CA. The car was "reputedly" a one owner barn find that my brother purchased from a well known local EV8F member. My brother decided to move to Idaho taking the '37 with him. The car had to be inspected in Idaho to verify the numbers, serial and license. No problem on the license plates, the numbers matched the title/registration. A problem was found with the serial number, the number on the frame did not match the numbers on the paper work. Mind you now my brother had owned the car for over twenty years and had the registration cards to prove it.. As a general practice, Idaho required a surrounding state "sweep" on the serial number, nothing turned up. California was contacted, CA records showed that the vehicle belonged to my brother with no question on the serial number. A verification of the serial number on the frame revealed that the number was correct for a '37 Ford. The number on the title was also correct for a '37 Ford. It was obvious that the numbers on the title had not been altered, nor were they a typo mistake, the only assumption that could be made was that the title belonged to a car completely different from my brothers car. Cool heads prevailed, Idaho issued a new title containing the number stamped into the frame, the original CA title was destroyed. There is no doubt in my mind that the car is, was a "barn find", however, the truth of the matter is that the car did not have any paper work, someone, either the guy my brother bought the car from, or someone else secured a '37 Ford title, "marrying the two together" with no thought about the numbers matching. When my brother contacted me about the number issue I got hold of the guy that my brother had purchased the car from, of course he denied any knowledge of there being a serial number issue. What many people fail to understand, is that with the proliferation of information now available in the computer age, it is very easy to push a couple of buttons and up pops the correct number sequence for any given vehicle... __________________ Bill.... 36 5 win cpe Last edited by blucar; 03-25-2015 at 01:15 PM.

03-24-2015, 12:33 PM	#60
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: Car title value. A friend of mine purchased a motorcycle for a lower than normal price about 20 years back. He went to the DMV to get it registered and found out why the price was so low. The guy he had bought it from had 2 bikes with the same VIN so that he could just swap the plates to drive them both, just not at the same time. The bike my friend purchased was correcly stamped and looked like factory (which it was). The other bike, still owned by the turd that sold it to him, was crudely stamped but had a custom motor & frame (a real hack job). It was likely a stolen bike but the DMV nor the DPS would do anything about it since he had the clear title issued by the state. My friend elected to just ride the bike illegally since he couldn't afford another one and the guy he bought it from wouldn't give his money back (this was before the lemon law was passed in Texas). My friend was eventually stopped by Johnny Law and the bike was impounded as stolen property. Since it was never claimed in the allotted 30-day time period, the state issued it a new tittle and sold it at auction. It's funny how the state can get away with that but you and me can't! My friend learned a hard lesson on that one since he was out over 3 grand for a bike he never really owned. He could have retitled it with a custom frame but he was too cheep to do that. Oh Well!