The Ford Barn

Verns41 · 06-27-2018, 08:46 PM

I purchased a 41 ford coupe w/ v8 flathead. Car sat for the last 11 years. The original owner didn't finish the car and passed away. Car is stock. It was turning over but no spark, though I had juice everywhere else. I took apart the wires at the ignition ballast cleaned the contacts and put it back together and finally got 2v to the coil. Once i did that i tried to start the car and i got absolutely nothing when i hit the button? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and sorry for the lengthy description

drolston · 06-27-2018, 09:12 PM

Assuming a good battery, cables and ground connections. With the ballast resistor in the circuit, you should see about 4.5 volts at the coil when the points are closed, and should see battery voltage (6.3) when the points are open. If not, you probably have a leaky condenser. The condensers will give out just sitting for 11 years. It should be replaced.

tubman · 06-27-2018, 09:32 PM

Getting "absolutely nothing" says to me that the engine didn't turn over and there wasn't even a "click" from the solenoid. If this is the case, a little more basic troubleshooting with a test light or multi-meter is in order. Is there power to the solenoid? Is the solenoid a Ford type (grounding) or has it been replaced with the power-energized kind? Is it getting the proper ground or power when the starter button is pushed? (Maybe even when the key is turned depending on what has been done to the car.) After the starter circuit has been completed, is there power at the starter?

Of course, if "absolutely nothing" happening means the engine turns over, then the condenser is one place to start. I'd get it to turn over before I started worrying about the ignition.

Verns41 · 06-27-2018, 11:41 PM

Thank you for repsonding so quickly. I appreciate it. I hope i can answer all your questions correctly.

With the ignition on i get the following:

Battery 6.2 (battery is new and lives on tender)
2.2 to the coil
0 to the starter
6 to the front of the solenoid
6 on the right post of the solenoid
Left post of solenoid goes to the start i get nothing.

"Absolutely Nothing" - i got a click(sounds more like a "dunk") on first push of the start button. After that nothing. no noise, engine does not try and turn over at all. So i'm assuming nothing is going to the starter, which was the opposite before i got some voltage to the coil.

Solenoid -- i dont know which type your referring to. it has 3 posts left right & center, says ford on the top in very small lettering, silver, and it has some button underneath.

The regulator has 3 wires on that and i get nothing on either of the 3 with the ignition on. I get 5.x on all the wires on the back of the ignition switch.

Mart · 06-28-2018, 04:28 AM

So you're not even getting the engine to crank?

If you push the button under the solenoid the engine should crank over. (If it is a pressable button).

That would be a start (no pun intended).

Mart.

tubman · 06-28-2018, 04:36 AM

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It sounds like you have a standard Ford solenoid that activates by grounding the smaller center post through the starter button. It also sounds like it is faulty. If there is no "button" (like "Mart" mentioned) on the solenoid or if pressing it doesn't do anything, try "jumping" the solenoid (from the large post connected to the battery to the large post going to the starter) with a jumper cable or even a pair of pliers. Just touch it momentarily and see if the starter activates at all. Make sure the car is in neutral and be careful, as there is a lot of current involved. Or, from the sounds of it, just replace the solenoid; it sounds faulty. Make sure you replace it with a proper unit. Solenoids come in two varieties, so make sure you get a proper replacement.

Verns41 · 06-28-2018, 07:27 AM

Thank you again for all the help. So the button under the solenoid must be the self-destruct button. The sound that came out of it was terrible and one of the wires on the right terminal started smoking. Ill go through the items that came with the car and see if there's a 2nd unit or order a new one. I got alot of extra parts with the car.

tubman · 06-28-2018, 07:50 AM

When you say "right terminal" I assume you mean the one to the battery. It sounds like you have a dead short somewhere. Though it is possible it may be in the solenoid itself, it's probably somewhere else. I would check the cable to the starter. If everything looks OK, disconnect the cable from the starter and make sure that it doesn't ground out on anything (wrap it with tape or something). Try the button again; if you still have the problem, it's probably the solenoid. If it doesn't spark and smoke, the problem is probably in the starter. (This is assuming all of the wiring checked out.)

If the cable that was smoking and sparking was the one to the starter, it is either grounded out someplace (check for broken or frayed insulation) or you have a bad starter with an internal short.

Again, be careful, there is a lot of current involved here, even though it is only at 6 volts. I have heard of people losing fingers when a gold ring accidently became a conductor for the full amperage of a car battery.

Verns41 · 06-28-2018, 12:35 PM

My apologies. Sometimes the brain don't work...Starter is on the right terminal (right side of car) and wires Batt cable on left terminal. Its the left terminal that gets cranky when I hit the button. Left terminal has the battery cable and wires to the voltage regulator.

JSeery · 06-28-2018, 12:52 PM

Resent post on starter solenoids. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183357

A basic question just to be sure, are you familiar with older Ford electrical systems? Are you sure the battery is connected correctly, positive to ground and negative to the starter solenoid. Are the battery and starter cables the correct size for 6v (larger than 12v).

From what you post it sounds like a bad solenoid. There could also be an issue with the ignition switch contacts. Check the voltage to the ignition switch and at the ignition switch side of the ballast resistor.

"I get 5.x on all the wires on the back of the ignition switch." The voltage at the ignition switch should be close to the battery voltage, so you are getting some resistance in the connections between the starter solenoid and the ignition switch.

Do you have the 41 wiring diagram? If not here is a copy.

Ggmac · 06-28-2018, 03:04 PM

Vern , do you have a trailer ? I'm about 25 -35 miles north of you . I'm a 1/2 mile west of the turnpike , lake worth exit . I don't charge ! Just like to help . I'd be willing to get the basics for you or eliminate the major or hopefully get it fired up .
Gary

Verns41 · 06-28-2018, 04:35 PM

TO JSeery:
I'm not 100%. The car did come with boxes of manuals from that era for this car. So i have all the schematics, etc. Thank you for the images, i appreciate it. Everything looks right. The positive grounds to the FW with the ground strap and the negative terminates to the left side of the solenoid and the right side goes to the starter. both battery cables are for that year, make, etc.

"I get 5.x on all the wires on the back of the ignition switch." The voltage at the ignition switch should be close to the battery voltage, so you are getting some resistance in the connections between the starter solenoid and the ignition switch.

I would assume from your statement that the solenoid would be the first place to start since the ignition runs off that. I have boxes of parts so ill dig and see if there's another one. I have 4 water pumps, 2 rear ends, 4 extra tires,...lol.

Gmac: Thank you for the offer. I may take you up on that. Lake worth isnt that far from here and i'm right off the Sawgrass. Ill have to ask my buddies if they have one i can borrow.

rotorwrench · 06-28-2018, 06:36 PM

The solenoid could be bad unless the engine doesn't want to turn for some reason. You might try turning the crank pulley and insure the engine will turn free. A starter that can't turn the engine will still draw amps trying to.

fordv8j · 06-28-2018, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The solenoid could be bad unless the engine doesn't want to turn for some reason. You might try turning the crank pulley and insure the engine will turn free. A starter that can't turn the engine will still draw amps trying to.

starter may be locked,,place car in 3rd gear and rock back and forth

GordonC · 06-28-2018, 07:11 PM

One thing I always do before trying to start a car that has been sitting for some time is to pull the plugs and squirt some MM in the cylinders. Let it sit for a day or so and then try turning the motor over by hand. If you get it to go through a complete rotation then you know your good to try it with the starter. Its possible you got a valve that is hung up and the piston has come up against it and won't turn now.

JSeery · 06-28-2018, 07:23 PM

"Its possible you got a valve that is hung up and the piston has come up against it and won't turn now."

Good general advice, but the valve is not going to hit a piston on a flathead. At least not as long as it's still in one piece.

GordonC · 06-28-2018, 08:12 PM

Your correct, I crossed my overhead and flathead databases in my head!

Tinker · 06-28-2018, 11:45 PM

Have you checked your grounds? with a meter you are finding/using good grounds. Run a ground clip to the engine and clip to the solenoid, see if it doesn't click.

Sounds like bad ground connections.

KGS · 06-29-2018, 05:53 AM

[QUOTE=Verns41;1645264]TO . Everything looks right. The positive grounds to the FW with the ground strap and the negative terminates to the left side of the solenoid and the right side goes to the starter. both battery cables are for that year, make, etc.]

If the solenoid is mounted correctly, with the button on the bottom, then your cables are attached properly and that should be good. However, it the solenoid is mounted upside down (button on the top) then the cables will be attached incorrectly and the solenoid won't work.

06-27-2018, 08:46 PM	#1
Verns41 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Coral Springs, Florida Posts: 5	41 Flathead try to get her started I purchased a 41 ford coupe w/ v8 flathead. Car sat for the last 11 years. The original owner didn't finish the car and passed away. Car is stock. It was turning over but no spark, though I had juice everywhere else. I took apart the wires at the ignition ballast cleaned the contacts and put it back together and finally got 2v to the coil. Once i did that i tried to start the car and i got absolutely nothing when i hit the button? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and sorry for the lengthy description

06-27-2018, 09:12 PM	#2
drolston Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Williamsburg, VA Posts: 1,628	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started Assuming a good battery, cables and ground connections. With the ballast resistor in the circuit, you should see about 4.5 volts at the coil when the points are closed, and should see battery voltage (6.3) when the points are open. If not, you probably have a leaky condenser. The condensers will give out just sitting for 11 years. It should be replaced.

06-27-2018, 09:32 PM	#3
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,332	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started Getting "absolutely nothing" says to me that the engine didn't turn over and there wasn't even a "click" from the solenoid. If this is the case, a little more basic troubleshooting with a test light or multi-meter is in order. Is there power to the solenoid? Is the solenoid a Ford type (grounding) or has it been replaced with the power-energized kind? Is it getting the proper ground or power when the starter button is pushed? (Maybe even when the key is turned depending on what has been done to the car.) After the starter circuit has been completed, is there power at the starter? Of course, if "absolutely nothing" happening means the engine turns over, then the condenser is one place to start. I'd get it to turn over before I started worrying about the ignition.

06-27-2018, 11:41 PM	#4
Verns41 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Coral Springs, Florida Posts: 5	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started Thank you for repsonding so quickly. I appreciate it. I hope i can answer all your questions correctly. With the ignition on i get the following: Battery 6.2 (battery is new and lives on tender) 2.2 to the coil 0 to the starter 6 to the front of the solenoid 6 on the right post of the solenoid Left post of solenoid goes to the start i get nothing. "Absolutely Nothing" - i got a click(sounds more like a "dunk") on first push of the start button. After that nothing. no noise, engine does not try and turn over at all. So i'm assuming nothing is going to the starter, which was the opposite before i got some voltage to the coil. Solenoid -- i dont know which type your referring to. it has 3 posts left right & center, says ford on the top in very small lettering, silver, and it has some button underneath. The regulator has 3 wires on that and i get nothing on either of the 3 with the ignition on. I get 5.x on all the wires on the back of the ignition switch.

06-28-2018, 04:28 AM	#5
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,760	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started So you're not even getting the engine to crank? If you push the button under the solenoid the engine should crank over. (If it is a pressable button). That would be a start (no pun intended). Mart.

06-28-2018, 04:36 AM	#6
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,332	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) It sounds like you have a standard Ford solenoid that activates by grounding the smaller center post through the starter button. It also sounds like it is faulty. If there is no "button" (like "Mart" mentioned) on the solenoid or if pressing it doesn't do anything, try "jumping" the solenoid (from the large post connected to the battery to the large post going to the starter) with a jumper cable or even a pair of pliers. Just touch it momentarily and see if the starter activates at all. Make sure the car is in neutral and be careful, as there is a lot of current involved. Or, from the sounds of it, just replace the solenoid; it sounds faulty. Make sure you replace it with a proper unit. Solenoids come in two varieties, so make sure you get a proper replacement.

06-28-2018, 07:27 AM	#7
Verns41 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Coral Springs, Florida Posts: 5	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started Thank you again for all the help. So the button under the solenoid must be the self-destruct button. The sound that came out of it was terrible and one of the wires on the right terminal started smoking. Ill go through the items that came with the car and see if there's a 2nd unit or order a new one. I got alot of extra parts with the car.

06-28-2018, 07:50 AM	#8
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,332	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started When you say "right terminal" I assume you mean the one to the battery. It sounds like you have a dead short somewhere. Though it is possible it may be in the solenoid itself, it's probably somewhere else. I would check the cable to the starter. If everything looks OK, disconnect the cable from the starter and make sure that it doesn't ground out on anything (wrap it with tape or something). Try the button again; if you still have the problem, it's probably the solenoid. If it doesn't spark and smoke, the problem is probably in the starter. (This is assuming all of the wiring checked out.) If the cable that was smoking and sparking was the one to the starter, it is either grounded out someplace (check for broken or frayed insulation) or you have a bad starter with an internal short. Again, be careful, there is a lot of current involved here, even though it is only at 6 volts. I have heard of people losing fingers when a gold ring accidently became a conductor for the full amperage of a car battery.

06-28-2018, 12:35 PM	#9
Verns41 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Coral Springs, Florida Posts: 5	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started My apologies. Sometimes the brain don't work...Starter is on the right terminal (right side of car) and wires Batt cable on left terminal. Its the left terminal that gets cranky when I hit the button. Left terminal has the battery cable and wires to the voltage regulator.

06-28-2018, 03:04 PM	#11
Ggmac Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Lake worth Florida Posts: 1,108	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started Vern , do you have a trailer ? I'm about 25 -35 miles north of you . I'm a 1/2 mile west of the turnpike , lake worth exit . I don't charge ! Just like to help . I'd be willing to get the basics for you or eliminate the major or hopefully get it fired up . Gary

06-28-2018, 04:35 PM	#12
Verns41 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Coral Springs, Florida Posts: 5	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started TO JSeery: I'm not 100%. The car did come with boxes of manuals from that era for this car. So i have all the schematics, etc. Thank you for the images, i appreciate it. Everything looks right. The positive grounds to the FW with the ground strap and the negative terminates to the left side of the solenoid and the right side goes to the starter. both battery cables are for that year, make, etc. "I get 5.x on all the wires on the back of the ignition switch." The voltage at the ignition switch should be close to the battery voltage, so you are getting some resistance in the connections between the starter solenoid and the ignition switch. I would assume from your statement that the solenoid would be the first place to start since the ignition runs off that. I have boxes of parts so ill dig and see if there's another one. I have 4 water pumps, 2 rear ends, 4 extra tires,...lol. Gmac: Thank you for the offer. I may take you up on that. Lake worth isnt that far from here and i'm right off the Sawgrass. Ill have to ask my buddies if they have one i can borrow.

06-28-2018, 06:36 PM	#13
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,455	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started The solenoid could be bad unless the engine doesn't want to turn for some reason. You might try turning the crank pulley and insure the engine will turn free. A starter that can't turn the engine will still draw amps trying to.

06-28-2018, 07:11 PM	#15
GordonC Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 201	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started One thing I always do before trying to start a car that has been sitting for some time is to pull the plugs and squirt some MM in the cylinders. Let it sit for a day or so and then try turning the motor over by hand. If you get it to go through a complete rotation then you know your good to try it with the starter. Its possible you got a valve that is hung up and the piston has come up against it and won't turn now.

06-28-2018, 07:23 PM	#16
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started "Its possible you got a valve that is hung up and the piston has come up against it and won't turn now." Good general advice, but the valve is not going to hit a piston on a flathead. At least not as long as it's still in one piece.

06-28-2018, 08:12 PM	#17
GordonC Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 201	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started Your correct, I crossed my overhead and flathead databases in my head!

06-28-2018, 11:45 PM	#18
Tinker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: MN Posts: 7,063	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started Have you checked your grounds? with a meter you are finding/using good grounds. Run a ground clip to the engine and clip to the solenoid, see if it doesn't click. Sounds like bad ground connections.

06-29-2018, 05:53 AM	#19
KGS Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Schooley's Mountain Posts: 530	Re: 41 Flathead try to get her started [QUOTE=Verns41;1645264]TO . Everything looks right. The positive grounds to the FW with the ground strap and the negative terminates to the left side of the solenoid and the right side goes to the starter. both battery cables are for that year, make, etc.] If the solenoid is mounted correctly, with the button on the bottom, then your cables are attached properly and that should be good. However, it the solenoid is mounted upside down (button on the top) then the cables will be attached incorrectly and the solenoid won't work.