2 deuces vers 0ne 4 barrel

[4ford]

any on have a choice over a single 4barrel over 2 deuces?? thinking of wakening up the flat head 46-48 in its stock condition????

[scooder]

Mill the heads for 0.050" piston clearance. Or fit some high compression heads. Offy 400's will wake it up.
Higher compression is the best way to wake up an otherwise stock flathead. And pretty much all the added torque is in the rpm range you use in normal driving.
2 2's properly set up against a 4bbl properly set up, your probably not going to feel a difference.
If you gotta buy a new 4bbl and manifold and adaptor to fit all this together, your on your way money wise to a pair of heads.
Your choice, but if I had to chose it would be upping the compression. More torque where you want it and better mpg, what's to lose?
Martin.

[Krylon32]

I've done them both, and for looks I like the 2 deuces on a wide spread early Offenhauser manifold but for sheer drivability and tune ability I like the 4 barrel.

[4ford]

ok about the heads. sounds like a good approach, and leave the single carb on the car? I heard its easy to make the two carbs work on the car its three and 4 where the issues come into play? this is why I ask

[scicala]

Along with the higher compression heads, you could go with a 3 bolt Ford carb from 1955 or 1956 Fords with the 272 Y-Block V8. These had larger venturi's that were 1 1/16" instead of 15/16" (Holley 94). his will give a little more air flow, and a little more power at higher RPM's. The '55 carbs had a manual choke, and the '56 cabrs had an auto choke. Good rebuildable carbs are on EBAY all of the time. A single carb will save money and work, but does not have the sex appeal of multiple carbs. A lot easier to tune too.

Sal

[Fe26]

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As Krylon32 says, 2 carbs on a wide spread inlet manifold where the carbs are directly over the ports is an improvement. MCF did some testing on this arrangement, and with the correct setup (Jets etc.) they gained a 5% fuel efficiency as well as improved performance. And then there's 'that' look, cool.

[AnthonyG]

The choice between 2X2 or 4 Brl is all about cool. The 2x2 set up is the best lookng short of 3 or 4 carbs, however the performance is all about the CFM's delivered. I believe Holley makes the smallest 4 barrel which is in the high 300 CFM range which is about all you stock flatty will handle without too much fuel delivery causing many issues. As was said and I believe you need to do the milling of the heads at the least before entertaining the 2nd Holley 94 or a 4 brl., You really need a cam to open the lifters more to let in more air to accommodate the extra fuel. That being said velocity is another way to go. Some type of high rise setup like a slingshot intake will also increase HP and torque. Something to think about is too much fuel without enough air can wash some the oil from your cylinder walls and shorten the usable life of your engine. If your not going to do the things required to handle the extra fuel as scooder said just mill the heads and leave the single deuce on the car. if you can find a couple inch to say 4" spacer to raise the single deuce higher this will help pep it up also.

[4ford]

so ok if I change the heads and leave the single carb it should be good. maybe raise the carb a bit.. and leave the 2 carbs alone or the 4b be anyone know what the cfm on the single carb would be? just a stock one.

thanks for all the info

[40grit]

I would be the first to admit the multi carb set ups are sexy but I will share my experience with the 4 barrell.

I purchased a 390 cfm Holly from speedway and never did get it to accelerate without acting like it had a bad pump. I changed shooter mozzles, pump cams, as well as talking to holly tech support twice.

I eventually went to a 56 buick WCFB which fits the offenhouser manifold without an adapter and have been very pleased. Along with a Chevy distributor and 5 speet trans the car is a joy to drive and will get 22 +/- mpg.

If they aren't fun to drive they aren't fun to own.

John

[Johnnydidd]

My 53 Victoria has aluminum heads with 2 dues manifold. I have had trouble with carbs not working properly, ended up blocking off the rear carburetor and installing one new carburetor, it runs so good I hate put the other new carburetor on. I was talking to a friend he suggested putting on the other new rear carburetor blocking it off, hooking all the linkage to make it look like its hooked up. I may do this.

[trainguy]

Have a 390 Holley on a 49 merc powered 32 hiboy .Bought the carb from Speedway 4 years ago adjusted it once,works great.Had 2 97s on my 36,drove me crazy took them off and installed a single 97. Phil

[40grit]

Originally Posted by trainguy

Have a 390 Holley on a 49 merc powered 32 hiboy .Bought the carb from Speedway 4 years ago adjusted it once,works great.Had 2 97s on my 36,drove me crazy took them off and installed a single 97. Phil

There is no doubt in my mind my 390 is defective. I have never taken it apart to check it. Only tried to tune it.

I do like the fact that the WCFB is period correct for an early style hot rod though.

John

[AnthonyG]

so ok if I change the heads and leave the single carb it should be good. maybe raise the carb a bit.. and leave the 2 carbs alone or the 4b be anyone know what the cfm on the single carb would be? just a stock one.

the CFM on the 94 will vary as there are several variations, but the range is 165 to 185cfm.

[Fe26]

[Quote] "If they aren't fun to drive they aren't fun to own. ."
BINGO!

[scooder]

High compression and the single stock carb will work nice. You'll probably need to tighten the vacuum brake down a bit.
There are bigger "94" looking carbs out there, fitted to Y blocks. You'd need an 8CM inlet or a bored and sleaved Ford inlet to gain the advantage. A stock Ford inlet won't bore big enough to match the carb.
The ideal size 4bbl is about 450ish cfm, the 390 is a bit small, sure it'll work, just not as well.
Carbs do not deliver cfm, the engine draws cfm.
Martin.

[CA Victoria]

Link to Ol Ron's Book.
I started with some of the same questions you are asking, Rons book will help you flatten the learning curve. $$ well spent.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/rebu...bpQ-_-10:1&r=1

[chap52]

Not a real technical approach, but i run duel 94's. Ain't going no where real fast with the stock rear end and 3 speed trans in my 52 truck anyway. But the "WOW" factor when I open the hood is worth it, add that to the loping sound of the Howard 3/4 cam.
Growing up I never had the $ to go very technical so reliving the "poor boy" hot rod days is good enough for me. (you know like removing an air cleaner to sound like you have a special intake, or squirting a garden hose into a hot tail pipe to fry out a muffler so it would be louder... I have moved past those old tricks)
It's all about "you" and what you like. Enjoy "your" adventure.

[scicala]

"There are bigger "94" looking carbs out there, fitted to Y blocks. You'd need an 8CM inlet or a bored and sleaved Ford inlet to gain the advantage. A stock Ford inlet won't bore big enough to match the carb."

The 1955 Holley 2110's had the larger 1 1/16" venturi's, but still had the smaller throttle bores (same as a Holley 94), so shouldn't requiring boring the manifold.

Sal

[4t8v8]

Got my 390cfm from Speedway over 25 years ago. Haven't had a minute's problem with it. Edelbrock heads, headers, Max 1 cam and electronic ignition (distributor tuned by Bubba's) and the old girl really woke up. Prefer a 4bbl over multiple carbs for tuning purposes.

[scooder]

Originally Posted by scicala

"There are bigger "94" looking carbs out there, fitted to Y blocks. You'd need an 8CM inlet or a bored and sleaved Ford inlet to gain the advantage. A stock Ford inlet won't bore big enough to match the carb."

The 1955 Holley 2110's had the larger 1 1/16" venturi's, but still had the smaller throttle bores (same as a Holley 94), so shouldn't requiring boring the manifold.

Sal

Sal, I do beg your pardon. Didn't know they existed with a big middle and a small bottom. I've seen some but always looked wrong to me, as if someone was swapping parts to make something fit. Never paid mind to them being right.
Thanks for the info.
Martin.

[scooder]

Re the "165-185 cfm" I'm pretty sure I read a while back that these cfm numbers along with the often quoted 97 carb cfm, were flowed at 1.5" mercury like four bbls are, not the normal 3" mercury that two bbls are normally test flowed. Can anyone confirm this? Need someone with a flow bench and spare minute or two.
Martin.

[scicala]

Originally Posted by scooder

Re the "165-185 cfm" I'm pretty sure I read a while back that these cfm numbers along with the often quoted 97 carb cfm, were flowed at 1.5" mercury like four bbls are, not the normal 3" mercury that two bbls are normally test flowed. Can anyone confirm this? Need someone with a flow bench and spare minute or two.
Martin.

Martin,

I didn't realize they put the small throttle body with the 1 1/16" bowls in '55 either. The ones I've seen were like that. I have an old Holley manual with specs, but it doesn't list the throttle bore sizes. Just the venturi sizes.

I worked at the original Zenith Carburetor Co. in Detroit from '72 to '84 before they moved to Abingdon, VA in late '84 (to kill the union and reduce taxes etc.) since they were struggling to stay alive. They are still alive today. I worked in the engineering lab doing flow box work and engine dyno carb calibrations for new applications. I worked with some x-Holley carb people also and can confirm that Holley flows the 4 barrels at 2.0" Hg (28" H20) and the 2 barrel carbs at 3.0" Hg. Zenith flowed everything at 2.0" Hg.
With Holley flowing the 2 barrel carbs at 3.0" Hg makes it confusing. For example they have a 2 bbl. rated at 500 CFM, but if flowed with the same conditions as a 4 bbl., it would flow more like 375 CFM. It has the same venturi and throttle size as a 750 CFM 4 bbl, yet they rate it at 500 CFM ?

They make it confusing as heck. For example if you want a 500 CFM 2 bbl. for you're hot rod instead of a small 4 bbl carb, you are actually getting a lot less CFM capacity.

Sorry, but I do not have a flow bench to help you out, and don't know anyone at Zenith anymore. I do know they still use the original antique flow boxes from Detroit from at least the 1940's.

Sal

[scicala]

I could be mistaken. Holley may have flowed the 4 barrel carbs at 1.5" and not 2.0"Hg like I stated earlier. I love old age and foggy memories.

Sal

[AnthonyG]

http://www.candsspecialties.com/ratings.html
ww.fordfe.info/CarbMythFact.html

Interesting discussions on these sites about bench testing at what Hg for 1, 2 and 4 barrels. Lot's of other good stuff as well.

[4ford]

ok i think it will be a single 4bar how about a autolight 4100 i think a 108 is about 450 cfm and an old ford carb??? well it might be net looking??

[39topless]

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390 CFM is the max. Bigger ain't better with carbs. Speedway all the way!!!.

[scicala]

Originally Posted by 4ford

ok i think it will be a single 4bar how about a autolight 4100 i think a 108 is about 450 cfm and an old ford carb??? well it might be net looking??

I think an Autolite 4100 (108) is pretty close to 450 CFM. Probably no more than that. The Holley 390, Edelbock or the Autolite 4100 will all need an adaptor to fit a flathead manifold since they have a larger bolt pattern. Only old Holley 2140 & 4000 teapots, Carter WCFB's and Rochester 4G's had the small bolt pattern in the mid 50's that would match the pattern on a flathead intake.

The Autolite 4100 is an economical choice, and they are plentiful and affordable on EBAY if you rebuild. It's also a very easy carburetor to work on, and is dependable.

Sal

[scooder]

Originally Posted by 39topless

390 CFM is the max. Bigger ain't better with carbs. Speedway all the way!!!.

We'll have to agree to disagree on carb size for a flathead.
Your right bigger ain't always better, unless the bigger one is the right size and the smaller one is a bit small.
Martin.

[scooder]

Originally Posted by 4ford

ok i think it will be a single 4bar how about a autolight 4100 i think a 108 is about 450 cfm and an old ford carb??? well it might be net looking??

I have no experience of that carb, but Si seems to think it's ok.
Personally for a 4bbl, I'd be looking for a small bolt patter WCFB or Rochester 4jet, bolts on with no adaptor and more in keeping period wise.
Thats just my opinion though.
Martin.

[2935ford]

I'm not a tuning whiz.....thus my experience has been with the Holley 390 4bbl.
Put one on my built 8BA flatty in my '35 slantback......ran great right out of the box.
I now have just installed one on my built 59A flatty for my '29 roadster. Have yet to fire it but I do not expect any surprises.
I also like the look of the multi 2bbl.......but I did my homework and the 4bbl seems to be the best setup for me.

[Ol' Ron]

well I gota get into this, considering the fact that we're not racing this engine, aesthetics come into play here as well. 2 Duces, do look good. However, for street, drivability and economy is more important. In my opinion, the 500 cfm Edelbrock is the best street carburetor. It has best tuning fetchers for both cruise and WOT. Now reguardless of what carburetor system you use, the ignition system plays a big part in both economy and WOT operation. AS far as airflow numbers are concerned, Holley can't get their act together. I bought an unknown 4150 from a friend and looked up the CFM and it was listed as a 390. However I have a 390 and the venturies are much larger. I called Holley, gave them the list number and they said it was a 390. So now I have 2 390 carbs with different size venturies. Go figger.

[JSeery]

But Ol' Ron It's about the look!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AnthonyG]

Hi 4ford, you started the thread indicating you have a stock '48 engine. Guys correct me if I'm wrong but that's a 100 hp engine. In his last post I read 4ford is still leaning towards a 390 to 450 cfm 4 barrel, even if you modify them to deliver the least amount of fuel., I think thats too much carb for that engine. You can go with the largest variety several choices in a two barrel, be it a 94, a Stromberg 97, or a Demon but unless you are gong to put a mild cam and enlarge the valves along with the milled heads I think any 4 barrel or multi carb set up is too much for that engine. I believe you'll be fowling your plugs and bogging the engine when you try to pedal to the medal it. not to mention again washing the oil off the cylinder walls with unspent fuel.

[41LjH]

When I build my 8BA, (0.080 over, Max1,Offey 425 heads and intake, Mallory Unilite, Red's headers) I bought a 4160 390CFM Holley. It ran great, but wouldn't idle when cold. After struggling for 18 months I replaced the Holley with a 500CFM Edelbock. No problems since. I am beginning another 8BA build and plan to use 3 Holley 94's on this one.

[Ol' Ron]

It's time to buy JWL's book. And the stock out of the box 500 cfm Edelcrock carb has the #5 rod/jet combination which is very rich. not good for the rings.
These have to be tuned for the application.

[done4]

I have a nonbranded 4 barrel manifold for my 59ab and just don't have the heart to put it on. Just like the two deuces better. Guess when you get old you also get stuck on some things.

[4ford]

guys.
i like all the info that you guys gave me on this.... heres what i am thinking, new heads offy 400s and leave the 94 carb on and drive it.....????

thank you for the advice

mike

[scooder]

Give it a go, the heads will up your torque at low (normal street driving) rpms. You may have to tighten the vacuum brake a bit, and you'll have to change the shorter head studson the engine, bottom two rows. As the heads are the same thickness all over, unlike the stock heads.
Then you could change the intake later, if you still want to.
High compression is the best bang for buck modification you can do.
Get John's (Jwl) book, lots of very relevant info in there.
Martin.

[51 MERC-CT]

Have to agree with Ol'Ron. The Holley 390 I installed ran well out of the box and with a jet change was better. But after installing an Edelbrock 500 I found that the Edelbrock is far better at tune-ability.
With all the hoopla about having a 4 barrel carb. installed you are running on 2 barrels about 99.9% of the time.

[Ol' Ron]

4ford
For a stock engine, get the Offy 350 head, more compression. Also, Offies quality control is pretty bad. The 400 will not clear the L-100 or any other hi lift cam. They may have fixed this, but you never know till you check it out.

[scooder]

Ron, can you still get offy heads numerically lower (below 400) I only seen 425 and 400's listed. If you can then go for it.
Martin.

[4ford]

ok change the heads. 350s 0r 400 do i need or really want more comp with the 350 on a stock motor?? leave the 94 on the car like Merc said you only use 2 barls 99 % anyway. put in a newer oil pump 8BA and truck tube (M19) and water pumps and drive it!!!

[39topless]

Originally Posted by scooder

We'll have to agree to disagree on carb size for a flathead.
Your right bigger ain't always better, unless the bigger one is the right size and the smaller one is a bit small.
Martin.

OK, I will agree to agree to disagree.

[4ford]

ok why disagree

[Ol' Ron]

compression is torque, carbs are RPM. Read the book.

[4ford]

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Ron, the books on order....will the comp hurt the stock motor??

[scooder]

Originally Posted by 4ford

ok why disagree

We disagree due to different opinions on carb size.
Also as above, higher compression will do nothing but feel good on a stock engine.
Martin.

[jimTN]

I have a 49-53 Edleb. 4b manifold that I want to use on a 59AB. Because it is for the late engines, the carb surface is on a slant. Does anyone know a mfg that makes a wedge shaped adapter plate to convert the late manifold to a parelel surface (block and carb mounting). Would love to just trade it for a early model.

[scooder]

He wants to un tilt the carb.
The 8BA manifolds tip the carb forward to counteract the 8BA engine that's tilted back, so the carb ends up level. You see?
Put this 8BA inlet on a 59A or earlier engine (that sits almost bang on level, the carb now tilts forward.
I think boat type places may have carb wedges, but used to see them in speed catalogs, doubt you'll find one that adapts bolt pattern and wedges though.
Martin.

[GreenMonster48]

Not bad in the looks department. 500 CFM Edelbrock.

[RooDog]

Way back in the day, 1963-65, I had a coulpa Flatties, stock except for and Edmonds 2x2 w/ 94's. I swapped this setup around on the otherwise stock engines and also used the stock single deuce. So many years & beers ago, but I don't recall any particular driveability issues with either of those setups.
But let's have a look here: Flathead Ford Intake Manifold Smackdown
Written by Marlan Davis, HotRod Magazine October 24, 2012.
Got real nice pictures too!!!!!

Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...#ixzz3RdSgQx3J
Follow us: @HotRodMagazine on Twitter | HotRodMag on Facebook
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...old-smackdown/

RooDog

[scooder]

Just to clear up possible confusion.
My post about un tilting the carb, was a response to a post that seems to have disappeared!
Not me going mad.
Martin.

[42merc]

Originally Posted by jimTN

I have a 49-53 Edleb. 4b manifold that I want to use on a 59AB. Because it is for the late engines, the carb surface is on a slant. Does anyone know a mfg that makes a wedge shaped adapter plate to convert the late manifold to a parelel surface (block and carb mounting). Would love to just trade it for a early model.

What I do to correct this is to mill the carb surface parallel to the engine surface.
It takes about 20 minutes to setup & mill.
And for the worriers, the bolts or studs don't care if they are on a slight angle.

[jimTN]

Thanks guys! I have a couple of plates that may be thick enough to mill at a slant also.

[OLD...BILL]

Originally Posted by jimTN

I have a 49-53 Edleb. 4b manifold that I want to use on a 59AB. Because it is for the late engines, the carb surface is on a slant. Does anyone know a mfg that makes a wedge shaped adapter plate to convert the late manifold to a parelel surface (block and carb mounting). Would love to just trade it for a early model.

42 merc. beat me to it. pull the studs, and mill the carb. matting area flat to the base. you might need to clean out a little on the carb base holes, so it will slip right on. it should fit on and make a good seal, one gasket....and your good to go...........OLD......BILL

[Ol' Ron]

For this application, I think JWL's book would be the best one, You can see the results of a modification.

[4ford]

is there a link to JWL s book??

[RooDog]

I had the same question. It was so simple it scared me.....I just Googled: "jwl flathead" and received a page full of leads. Try this one for example:
Flathead Facts: John W. Lawson: Amazon.com: Books
RooDog

[Tony, NY]

Get both books here. Ford Barner.
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...oksforsale.htm

[corvette8n]

Originally Posted by CA Victoria

Link to Ol Ron's Book.
I started with some of the same questions you are asking, Rons book will help you flatten the learning curve. $$ well spent.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/rebu...bpQ-_-10:1&r=1

That link is to Ron Bishops book, you want Ron Hollerans book, Van Pelts has it.

Not that you can't have too many books about flatheads.

[stovebolt8]

I just bought a mostly stock 49 Ford custom. It runs suprisingly strong in its current state and does have headers with dual exhausts and glass packs. I don't have information about any other tweaks to the engine although everything else seems stock and it idles quietly at about 450 rpm. I'm thinking about giving it a bit more juice but don't necessarily want to go too deep. Considering the 4bbl carb and manifold route with an upgrade to electronic ignition and 12 volt system. My question is whether the stock cam and head will work satisfactorily with the small Holly or similar size carb up to the 500 cfm Edelbrock. I'm looking for good driveability with some improved performance.

[A bones]

stovebolt8 congratulations on scoring a '49. Very neat car.

Thanks for helping me reread this thread. Neat that you provide the answer, then ask the question. So my vote when I shape this dream to reality is the small 4BBL. With your help I now fully understand that I first need to pull the heads and shave them down.

"compression = torque"

After that I'd consider serious flow work. Though I am not in any hurry for that.

Good luck with your custom.