Welding Rear Springs

[8EL]

The rear spring on my 31 coupe has been worn against the axle housing leaving a divot on the outside of the spring eye. This could be easily welded with a low hydrogen rod, but what effect might it have on the metallurgy of the spring?

The spring is otherwise serviceable and given the cost of it, I intend to reuse. I could leave it as is, but would like to reapply the material lost. Has anyone attempted this type of repair? Photos attached......

[WHN]

Do yourself and any future owner a favor. “Replace the Spring”.

Model A Ford’s suffer from the Shade Tree Mechanic problem. In my opinion, this would be a good example of that.

Do it right the first time, job done, you can move on to other problems.

Brakes, front end, springs, shocks, tires and wheels. These need to be right.

[Phil Brown]

Don't weld on it, springs do not like heat. Just run it as is or replace it. New springs are not really that expensive or there are still a lot of serviceable used ones around

[daveymc29]

You can replace that main leaf for about @150.00 in California, with a new leaf. Take the old one with you to the spring shop. Get the same thickness and length. I just did a front and had the eyes reversed and new backing, along with removing a leaf for about 200 dollars at A1 Spring in Oakland.

[jerrytocci]

I would weld it. Test fit the bushing before assembly

[Model "A" Fords]

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That wear spot doesn't effect the use, only the looks. If this is the only defect, you can repair it by filling with an epoxy. Use an epoxy that has a metal filler that will make a tough repair. Make sure to prepare according to the epoxies instructions for proper bond.
Do not weld it as it requires procedures that pretty much most welding shops have no experience with! Your money would be better spent on a new/used one or a cosmetic repair.

[jb-ob]

8,

It took 90 years of hard service to create that divot. It's going to take a lot of viagra to make that spring work again. Find another.

My $.02, jb

[ModelA29]

Yes you can weld it - If you also have the ability to also temper it back to its original specs.
Yes you can "bondo" it so it looks new - the wear isn't in a spot that will cause failure.
In the end you'll be ahead just hitting up local club members or a swap meet for one in better condition. But first address the worn parts that caused it to rub.....

[Dino's A]

I would replace it. Having a spring malfunction on a trip is no fun.
Change it so you don't have to worry about it.

[8EL]

So most springs are made from as far as I know 5160 high carbon steel. In the case of welding broken half's together, It can be welded ( have seen this) but careful attention to applied heat is essential. Cool it to fast and it will become brittle, or to slow and the annealing result will leave it soft and it will deform under load. This repair is not mostly structural and given what I have learned about this particular application, wearing against the axle housing is pretty common. Therefore I was asking if anyone had previously made such a repair and was looking to compare notes.

The load on the spring is downward, where most force is being applied to the top of the eye therefore I do not believe that it's strength has been compromised.

I thank all of you for your opinions, but I have to say that I find it somewhat insulting to be referred to as a "shade tree mechanic", and to "do it right the first time". I have spent $3,400.00 in parts on this brake / rear axle rebuild to insure it is correct. I do first class work, and have done so for the last 47 years, this job will be no exception. Thinking outside the box has afforded mankind some of his greatest successes known.

Thank You

[Patrick L.]

You can do whatever you feel like. It won't hurt to leave it as is or fill it with anything. JB weld, braze, weld etc.

[Martinbuilt]

It's interesting the wear is on the spring eye. I have two axle housings here with big dips worn out of them from the spring hitting..

[Hitman]

I would replace it, for the reasons previously mentioned, and because of the wear on the spring.

I've never seen a spring wear like that, but have seen several rear axle housings and front axles wear due to spring sag. I'd question the spring and whether its really serviceable. It is likely not the proper metal due to the sag and de-arching that allowed it to touch the axle housing for so long. The wear on the spring is not normal.

The ability to weld is one thing and even if it could be done, I think this leaf is bad.

[Pete]

...

[Dodge]

Where are you located? If your close I'll give you a main spring leaf.

[GPierce]

The spring must have lost its arch or it wouldn’t be rubbing the axle. It needs to be at least re-arched. I replaced mine because it lost its arch and was rubbing on the front axle.

[8EL]

The spring has not lost it's arch, the bushing wore out in the spring eye and perch allowing them to rub on the axle housing. I replaced the axle housings as they were wore through the bushing into the casting. I have re welded the divots with lo-hy rod DC reverse polarity to provide for a flat weld with minimal penetration and see no stress cracks, allowed to cool at ambient. Heat added was minimal. See no reason not to put in service, Heny's steel as expected is quite high quality as can be determined by characteristics noted while welding. I will advise if failure ends up being the case, but I doubt it...pictures attached.

[updraught]

I've never seen the spring wear, only the axle housing in our neck of the woods, in my lifetime.
So I can see why you got the responses you did.

[Bob Bidonde]

The eyes of the spring are functionally not part of the car's suspension, so concern about ruining the heat treatment is negligible. However, the eyes of the spring are structural in nature. If the eyes did not fail with their untreated wear, I doubt they will fail after welding.
If the worn spring was on my Model "A," i would replace that leaf as a minimum or the replace the hole spring.

[8EL]

I find the claims interesting that state they have never seen such wear as has been realized on my machine before. From a recent post "Rear spring perch fix procedure", the shackle has failed leaving the weight of the car to be born against the axle housing exclusively. In the photo given it clearly looks to me that the spring eye is being worn in the same manner as mine, why would it not?

I am also curious why Bob Bidone agrees that after welding the spring would not fail, he would replace it any way. I agree with Bob in his assessment of the impact the welding process would have on reliability. Also as can be seen from the photos I submitted, one will be unable to discern after painting the repaired spring from new, why then would you replace it any way?

[Keith True]

I would weld it,grind it,paint it,and forget about it.There is nothing springy going on out at that point in the spring.I used to have a bunch of replacement weld-on spring perches for the rear of the A's.You sawed the old worn out perch off,and welded the new part on.The part where you welded was already beveled for the weld,and you were back in business with a new spring shackle mount.They were made by the Funk Bros. company,and they came packed in wooden barrels.

[Planojc]

The job you did looks good to me and I would not hesitate to use it.

[8EL]

My thanks to all.....I would like to see what Pete wrote but for some reason it does not display. I have tried clicking on the 3 dots, what am I doing wrong?

[johnneilson]

From the picture you have an active suspension, I bet it hooks up good in left hand turns...
You needed to post the picture in the first post of the broken hanger.

J

[8EL]

Not following what you are saying here johnneilson, to what broken hangar post do you refer?

[goodcar]

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With all due respect, Model A Fords can be money pits, but these are our babies, just like our pets. You adopt a puppy and then he gets plugged up because you left your socks on the floor, then spent a few grand to surgically get the sock removed. Same logic applies to the Model A. You do the best you can to take care of them within your means.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by 8EL

Not following what you are saying here johnneilson, to what broken hangar post do you refer?

Your post #20 in this thread
The axle spring hanger is broken wide open and the spring is riding on the housing
It explains why the worn spring not to mention the spot on top of the housing

J

[Phil Brown]

Originally Posted by 8EL

My thanks to all.....I would like to see what Pete wrote but for some reason, it does not display. I have tried clicking on the 3 dots, what am I doing wrong?

He edited his own post and deleted what was written

[Model "A" Fords]

Originally Posted by Keith True

I would weld it,grind it,paint it,and forget about it.There is nothing springy going on out at that point in the spring.I used to have a bunch of replacement weld-on spring perches for the rear of the A's.You sawed the old worn out perch off,and welded the new part on.The part where you welded was already beveled for the weld,and you were back in business with a new spring shackle mount.They were made by the Funk Bros. axlelcompany,and they came packed in wooden barrels.

Replacement perches were designed to be welded, but were not made from spring steel like the main leaf is.

[Keith True]

Thats true.But,at the underside of that spring eye there is no spring action going on.It is simply a fixed eye to hold the spring.Nothing structural is being worked on here,it is purely cosmeticI just don't buy that running a little filler weld into that part of the spring eye will ever be noticed by the action of the spring.If that was up over the top of the eye it would be a different story..Autocar used to make a real heavy rear suspension setup that would wear the axle housings where the springs rode.The tips of the springs would wear,and they had a spec for welding rod to build up the spring ends.But that was a sliding portion of the spring,not the flexing portion.

[Phil Brown]

The concern would be how far up did the heat go in the spring ?

[updraught]

Originally Posted by 8EL

I find the claims interesting that state they have never seen such wear as has been realized on my machine before. From a recent post "Rear spring perch fix procedure", the shackle has failed leaving the weight of the car to be born against the axle housing exclusively. In the photo given it clearly looks to me that the spring eye is being worn in the same manner as mine, why would it not?

I am also curious why Bob Bidone agrees that after welding the spring would not fail, he would replace it any way. I agree with Bob in his assessment of the impact the welding process would have on reliability. Also as can be seen from the photos I submitted, one will be unable to discern after painting the repaired spring from new, why then would you replace it any way?

That thread was about a perch that had completely collapsed. He said "I'm hoping that the shackle wasn't riding on the housing for too many miles, since the break in the perch is still Shiney and not rusted."
Old cars had a hard time here as they were usually cut into utes during the war. So this sort of thing is common.

[Model "A" Fords]

Originally Posted by Keith True

Thats true.But,at the underside of that spring eye there is no spring action going on.It is simply a fixed eye to hold the spring.Nothing structural is being worked on here,it is purely cosmeticI just don't buy that running a little filler weld into that part of the spring eye will ever be noticed by the action of the spring.If that was up over the top of the eye it would be a different story..Autocar used to make a real heavy rear suspension setup that would wear the axle housings where the springs rode.The tips of the springs would wear,and they had a spec for welding rod to build up the spring ends.But that was a sliding portion of the spring,not the flexing portion.

Originally Posted by Phil Brown

The concern would be how far up did the heat go in the spring ?

My last comment was that the perch and spring material when welded have different results.
Phil correctly considers the heat affected zone from welding which effects the properties.
In this case, from the photograph, the blue furthest from the weld indicates approximately 575 F, the color varying slightly due to surface preparation before heating.
I believe 8EL has more experience than first indicated which resulted in his repair that will be around for awhile.
Nice work 8EL!

[8EL]

Originally Posted by updraught

That thread was about a perch that had completely collapsed. He said "I'm hoping that the shackle wasn't riding on the housing for too many miles, since the break in the perch is still Shiney and not rusted."
Old cars had a hard time here as they were usually cut into utes during the war. So this sort of thing is common.

That is what I was getting at, seemed like many such as yourself commented that they never saw the spring eye worn like mine. These cars are 90 plus years old, for all I know mine was driven like this also causing the wear noted. I posted that picture to show that there are probably many of these cars having this wear pattern.

[8EL]

I wish to thank all you fellows for taking the time to leave comments and concerns. The heat applied to do this padding build up was considerably less than an actual weldment employed to rejoin two pieces of parent metal however. 5160 can be welded in this manner (jointing) but heat becomes much more critical than what I did here.

ASTM publishes the following temperatures for these various procedural functions:

Heat Treatment 5160 is normally hardened in oil. Recommended quenching temperature is 1525 F, with a wide range of mechanical use available by tempering between 800 and 1300 F.

Forging Forge this grade between 2100 and 2200 F.

Annealing Heat to 1450 F and air cool.

As can be seen this part was kept well below stated temperatures in any critical region of the spring. I would not be going out of my way to be welding broken leafs back together in this material, but for the repair here it was I do believe well within reason all things being considered.

Have a nice evening to all

[bobbader]

Totally NOT UNUSUAL to find rear springs worn at the bottom of the eye. How many would you like? Also, as stated, this wear is unlikely to cause system failure once new shackles and bushings are in place. It sounds like you believe your main leaf is perfectly usable, why take a chance on another used spring that you have no history on? We all take parts off our cars to replace with better parts. But, there’s something in this crazy hobby that suggests we should not dispose of the “worse” part we just replaced. Then, about 10 years down the road, when someone needs one, we generously give it away with no compulsion as to it being imperfect enough to use on our personal vehicle. Huh? So, repair it to look correct with JB Weld or Bondo. Or, replace it with one from a reputable dealer like Eaton Springs (US Made) but know that they have gone up in price quite a bit over the last few years and you may have a long wait to get one.

[8EL]

What I see offered to replace spring shackle bushings, is a mandrel that is intended to be struck by a hammer to remove an install bushing. After installing reaming is required to make the hole round again as hammering it in caused it to become deformed. To avoid this I fashioned a tool to push out, and pull in the bushing utilizing the much more gradual force developed by thread (inclined plane). This worked out quite well, and given that the tolerance between the shackle bolt and the bushing inner diameter is large (slip fit), no reaming is required after installation.

The tool is made from hardened 4140 tool steel (carbide tooling necessary),
and utilizes a torrington thrust bearing with hardened washers between the stationary and turned (nut) members to prevent galling and reduce effort required to move load.









Final product...

[8EL]

What I see offered to replace spring shackle bushings, is a mandrel that is intended to be struck by a hammer to remove an install bushing. After installing reaming is required to make the hole round again as hammering it in caused it to become deformed. To avoid this I fashioned a tool to push out, and pull in the bushing utilizing the much more gradual force developed by thread (inclined plane). This worked out quite well, and given that the tolerance between the shackle bolt and the bushing inner diameter is large (slip fit), no reaming is required after installation.

The tool is made from hardened 4140 tool steel (carbide tooling necessary),
and utilizes a torrington thrust bearing and hardned washers between the stationary and turned (nut) members to prevent galling and reduce effort required to move load.


Final Product....

[8EL]

Did not think first reply went through, please disregard the duplication.....

[Model "A" Fords]

8EL, nice quality tool!
Could you show a dimensioned drawing with the bearing information so anyone can make there own tool or have their local machine shop make one.
Simple... don't hammer, therefore no rework. Great job!

[8EL]

Thank You
McMaster-Carr was the source for materials:

Thrust bearing 5909K31 - qty 1
Hardened washer 5909K41 - qty 2
4140 tool steel blank 6607K51 - qty 1 1" hex x 12" long

Threads are 1/2- 20 UNF

Real busy now, but will see about making a dimensional drawing in the future.....

[8EL]

One last think I might add here before I go to work, I located the seam in the bushing on the outboard side of the spring eye as to provide a seamless bearing surface on the top and bottom of the bushing for load considerations....

[Model "A" Fords]

Originally Posted by 8EL

Thank You
McMaster-Carr was the source for materials:

Thrust bearing 5909K31 - qty 1
Hardened washer 5909K41 - qty 2
4140 tool steel blank 6607K51 - qty 1 1" hex x 12" long

Threads are 1/2- 20 UNF

Real busy now, but will see about making a dimensional drawing in the future.....

Thanks 8EL, I appreciate the information and look forward to your drawing. In the meantime I will look on McMaster-Carr. They are very handy and I use them quite often.

Update, the hardened washers, I think are 5909K44 instead of 5909K41

[jeepguy1948]

If I am seeing correctly that is a reverse Eye spring? I don’t think that makes any difference regarding the question asked and the answers given. Maybe I’m seeing things? Maybe the owner doesn’t know what he’s got?

[Phil Brown]

Looks like a standard rear spring to me, but installing bushings is the same for both

[31a]

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Springs can be dangerous, if you dont know what you are doing, if you can get someone who is knowledgeable to help you give it a try.

[8EL]

It is a standard rear spring.

[8EL]

Originally Posted by Model "A" Fords

Thanks 8EL, I appreciate the information and look forward to your drawing. In the meantime I will look on McMaster-Carr. They are very handy and I use them quite often.

Update, the hardened washers, I think are 5909K44 instead of 5909K41

Yes, the 5909K44 is the correct washer, thanks