33 Tudor interior body panel question

[Doctor's Ford]

Now in the final part of my restoration I am working on the interior. I purchased a complete LeBaron Bonney kit 4 years ago and kept it waiting for its turn in the restoration. So far I placed the headliner, the rear window panels, and windlace. Today I was fitting the rear body panels (the ones that go over and around the wheel wells) and to my surprise the LB kit panels are much larger than the old one originally found in my car (which likely is not an original Ford panel). Photos show the striking difference in size. No way this LB panel will fit. You can see how the old panels fit well. The LB panel is much taller and wider but the overall shape is about the same. Actualy, it looks like this panel is for a much bigger car but on its back it reads "Tudor 33"". Instructions don't say anything about cutting it or trimming it to fit. I will contact LB next week for clarification but wanted some info from Barners. Are these panels for 33 Tudor? Am I doing something totally wrong? Thank you. Manuel

[rich b]

Looks like you old panels were shortened to work with the added package shelf. Original panels went to the back and curved around slightly. That horizontal cross brace behind the door opening is not original either. Is it the front support for the lower seat cushion (that was probably moved forward when the package shelf was added)?

[DavidG]

Manuel,

I agree with rich b, namely that your rear seat has been relocated forward from its original position with the addition of a non-original riser for the front of the rear seat cushion. Your old panels do not conform to the original and it appears that those from LeBaron Bonney are correct (for a Tudor sedan with the rear seat in its original position). Your decision now is whether or not you return the rear seat to its original position and remove the "extra" seat riser.

The raised area of the floor at the bottom of the attached photo is where the bottom cushion of the rear seat was originally located. The sills on the floor immediately forward of that raised area conform to the shape of the bottom of the LeBaron Bonney panel in your photo. (The photo is of a Fordor sedan floor, but that's inconsequential as the passenger car floors for '33-'34s are all the same except for minor details.)

[Paul Dobbin]

I think my old Tudor didn't have a cut out for the wheel well like your old panels had. It was a smooth panel with a wooden support on the back side that sat on the wheel well and the inside arm rest attached to it through the panel.I just looked at the 1933-34 Ford Book, Restorer's Guide on page 6-23 and it shows it that way for the Fordor. Again on page 6-2 for the Tudor.

[DavidG]

Manuel's car is a standard model hence it was not originally equipped with arm rests in the rear compartment.

[Doctor's Ford]

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Thank you rich b and DavidG. If I understand you correctly there are 2 modifications in the interior body of my car that I was not aware of and you are pointing to: First, the addition of a "shelf package" and second the addition of a transverse metal piece to hold the rear seat forward of its original position. I took these two additional pictures and label them to the best of my understanding to make sure I follow your description.

Question: Are all those metal frame structures (labeled A,B,C,D in photo) that you call "shelf" non original? What is the purpose of having it? I read in the restoration book that there was a small luggage area behind the rear seat and I was convinced this is what my car had.

What will be required to move the seat to its original position? (just move backward the hinge and the seat bottom shown in photo #2?)

I am dissapointed to learn so late in my restoration effort about these modifications. It is very hard at this time to undo it but I will see what can be done.

Thanks again and look forward for more guidance from the experts. Manuel

[DavidG]

Manuel,

The amount of space behind the rear seat back was originally very modest in size and it would seem the likely motive behind the modifications made to your car was to basically double that amount open space behind the seat back.

In terms of your first photo, only the upright strainer (that's what the industry calls that type of bracket) "A" is original. All of the others were added to move the seat forward.

In your second photo what you've labeled "seat support" (the retaining pins on the forward riser that was added and that "new" riser) would be removed in their entirety to re-position the seat back to its original location top of the ledge behind that "new" riser. Likewise the non-original relocated hinges would be discarded. Fortunately, the original hinges are quite simple and close approximations are available at any U.S. hardware store.

The photos below will attempt to show the original location of the "seat support" pins on the ledge and where the original hinges were located on the floor. These photos are of a '33 phaeton, but the location and type of hinge and the retaining pins near the front edge of the ledge are the same on sedans and phaetons. If you need replacements for the retaining pins, I've some extra NOS ones.

[Doctor's Ford]

Very clear explanation, thanks so much. To move the seat I will also have to remove the transverse metal bar where the pins were installed. Otherwise the passanger's feet will bump into this metal making it very cumbersome to ride in the rear seat. That sounds like a major metal job! Not an attractive option when I thought was about to finish and begin driving this car.

Is it reasonable just to trim the interior body panel and leave things as they are? The car won't be competing in judged-points concours, just a nice driver to enjoy. Will there be enough leg room left?

[DavidG]

If you elect to retain the modified seat position, please note that the upholstery panels cover the wheel houses completely, unlike the non-original upholstery panels that you removed from the car. In other words, the only trimming of the LeBaron Bonney panels would be to notch them to clear the "new" seat riser (traverse metal bar).

[FlatheadTed]

As it stands the seat position is much like the Victoria .

[johnboy34]

" Is it reasonable just to trim the interior body panel and leave things as they are? "
This is exactly what I would do, The leg room will be fine and you will have a little more room for stuff behind the seat. It looks like it was done in a thought out way.

[rich b]

Originally Posted by Doctor's Ford

Is it reasonable just to trim the interior body panel and leave things as they are? Will there be enough leg room left?

Guess it depends on what you are going to do with the car. The original seat position allows enough room behind the seat for the stuff you want to have with; but don't need to be readily accessible. If you are going to carry a cooler and a couple of lawn chairs, the area in front of the seat becomes more important, even more so if you add a couple of kids to the mix.

I guess the only way to see what works for you would be to install rear seat cushions along with at least the driver's seat and see how everything feels.

I was down at the garage today a grabbed a couple of pictures, showing the original hinge location, the location of the lower seat pegs, the catch pin for the seat back below the window, and the original tack strip around the back corner.

[Karl]

I guess what you do depends on your personality type. If it was me I would take the extra riser out and put it back to original. I suspect that the riser has just been welded in and might grind out relatively easily. I can also understand how people would leave it as it is - Personally it would bug me knowing it was not factory but as I say that's just how I am -I'm the guy that brought a complete set of 1934 snow chains for my 34 although where I live it never snows and I don't drive the car anywhere near snow !! But I thought they were a neat original accessory -Karl

[Doctor's Ford]

Thank you for the photos rich b. I am just like Karl, probably will lose my sleep every time I see this modification and be reminded that is not the way it is supposed to be. The problem is that it will take a dirty job to return to original, including cutting metal, applying heat, welding, etc and I have already installed half of the interior which could be easily damaged when my metal guy goes in to remove this riser.

I also want to provide the bit of "luxury touch" with the rear arm rest and a rear ash tray. I do have a nice original one and it seems I won't be able to mount it with my current setting. My car has now all the features of a Deluxe although originally it was likely a standard model.

So, as suggested, I will install the driver seat which is ready and fit the rear seat in order to measure how much leg room is left and decide afterwards.

As usual, excellent comments and advice from Barners from all over the world. Thank you all. Manuel

[Doctor's Ford]

Digging into my files I found this photo from 4 years ago showing the added shelf. To my untrained eyes it looked deceivingly original and completely fooled me.

If I move the rear seat backwards, how do I deal with the catch pin shown in the photo? It is welded now at the "A" position. Do I have to weld it to the tack strip in the "B" position or to the upright strainer? Currently the pin on the back of the rear seat is off center but I don't know if that is where it was originally.

[rich b]

Originally Posted by Doctor's Ford

If I move the rear seat backwards, how do I deal with the catch pin shown in the photo? It is welded now at the "A" position. Do I have to weld it to the tack strip in the "B" position or to the upright strainer? Currently the pin on the back of the rear seat is off center but I don't know if that is where it was originally.

It was originally off-center and riveted to the tack strip. You can see it in the one picture I posted last night. If I was doing it, I would put the seat back on the hinges and use the position of the catch to help locate the pin.

[Doctor's Ford]

I'd like to give Barners a follow up on my original question of fitting the interior body panel. I think people appreciate to see what is done after providing so much helpful advice.

As suggested by several of you, the floor of my car had been previously modified which was the reason for poor fitting of the LeBaron panel. So during the last 2 weeks I worked with my metal guy at his body shop and we set things up back to the original design (at least I hope we did so):

1)The added seat riser was removed
2) Seat pegs, hinges and latch were all moved backwards.

We worked from the rear to the front: First we installed the back seat latch and used it as a guide to identify the correct site for the hinges. We then assembled the rear seat and used it as a reference to find the location of the two seat pegs. We then painted on body color and now it appears back to original. The extra leg room is really impressive and I suspect is going to be a very comfortable ride in the back seat.

The rear seat fits well and so do the LeBaron Bonney panels. I can now continue working on the interior and will sleep in peace knowing I am trying to be faithful to the original. Thank you guys! Manuel

[DavidG]

Manuel,

I'm pleased that you went to the trouble of taking it back to original. Well done!

The original rear seat room in the Ford sedans of the period was amazing, although I wish that they had compromised a little and used some of it to move the front seats back 3 or 4 inches. Six foot tall people did exist in 1933, although I guess none of them worked in Ford engineering at the time.

[JSeery]

Nice work Manuel!

[rich b]

Looks like you went in the right direction moving it back and did a fine job of it.