The Ford Barn

sethkestenbaum · 06-26-2017, 03:01 PM

I've been offline for quite some time and am hoping to be back on the road at some point this Summer. I am looking for some help from the braintrust that is Fordbarn.

A bunch of us here in NY/NJ are continuing to trouble shoot my 1929 Phaeton which has been kicking out of gear since the transmission, engine, and Ujoint have been restored/replaced/rebuilt. About a month or two ago, I passed the car to our club mechanic/guru in hope he could figure it out. He has been trying things with no resolve.

We have eliminated many of the common causes using Tom Endy's article as a guide.
1) The tower has been swapped with a known working one. It didn't help.
2) The transmission has been apart and together a few times. ALL parts are new (and matching). There seem to be all sitting right, snug and nothing is appearing to be worn. There doesn't seem to be any excessive clearance showing as per a slider gear gap.
3) The 600 oil is correct (Bratton's best)
4) The brass horse shoe shims are in and the housing was replaced (the old one had a warp beyond the normal specs.

The car still comes out of gear when on a hill (under load). The model a mechanic here in the area noted that the universe joint may have an issue with it, so we are going to try to replace that. Thoughts? IF ANYONE HAS A GOOD OLD UNIVERSAL for an early 1929, PLEASE LET ME KNOW.

If anyone has any other insights or is a definitive expert on repairing Model A's that kick out of gear, please let me know. I would like to get you in touch with the mechanic taking the lead on the repair. I've got to imagine that I am not the only one who has had such a problem.

Thanks,
Seth

1931 flamingo · 06-26-2017, 05:56 PM

Was the "new" housing "dialed" in correctly??

Paul in CT

Miss your posts and hope you're doing well........

jb-ob · 06-26-2017, 06:59 PM

Seth,

Glad to see you are willing to give it one more 'college try'.

Add to clutch housing & fly wheel relationship, have a look at the Service Bulletins p.294 Flexible Front End Support pages. Simple enough to check to see if the engine /trans are positioned properly in the chassis.

Check the frame sag at the same point ( motor mounts), all of which puts a strain on the u joint & trans.

Time to search beyond the 'box'.

Good hunting, JB

al's28/33 · 06-26-2017, 10:20 PM

Seth so sorry to hear about your transmission, wish I could help but I will be thinking of you and your issue I hope it turns out well soon so your Phaeton can get back on the road! GOOD LUCK!!

Tom Wesenberg · 06-26-2017, 10:44 PM

The crankshaft, tranny input and output shafts must be in a perfectly straight line. So, the flywheel cover must be dialed in, the input shaft bearing and pilot bearings must be good, and the output shaft bearing, and bearing between the input and output shafts must be good. I'd check these items first.

Also, the 2-3 gear must have a snug sliding fit to the shaft.

Marshall V. Daut · 06-26-2017, 11:54 PM

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Since you're getting proficient at removing and installing the engine/transmission multiple times and it's no longer a daunting task for you, try temporarily switching the entire transmission with a known good one, or even a greasy old tranny lying around. That will tell you right away if your transmission is at fault. No big deal to put yours back if that's not the problem. If the known good one also jumps out of gear, you need to keep looking elsewhere for the cause, as others have suggested. If it doesn't jump out of gear, then you'll know for sure there's something wrong inside your transmission.
Marshall

KenCoupe · 06-27-2017, 01:01 AM

I know you have had the transmission out and restored or rebuilt it. However, there are several roller bearings in the transmission that could be a problem. In the main bearing there is a short roller bearing. In the main cluster gear there is a long bearing, a spacer, and a short roller bearing. I had the similar problem as yours that the transmission would pop out of third gear under load. It turns out that when I took the transmission apart, the main cluster gear had an incorrect spacer and an incorrect roller bearing. Once I put the correct spacer and bearing in, I no longer had the problem of the gear popping out.

heckstein · 06-27-2017, 05:13 PM

It seems you have tried all the common places to look. You said the flywheel housing has been replaced and shims used on the two ears at the top behind the engine. Has the flywheel been checked for planarity with the housing? More than .010" wobble is cause for concern. Is the crankshaft flange in perfect planarity? More than .003" at the edge of the flange is a concern.

Are there burrs on the flywheel flange or flywheel that could cause the two to not sit flat with each other? Is there run out of the pilot bearing hole in the flywheel? If so, remount the flywheel 180 degrees and recheck. The pilot bearing has to be dead center.

Check the hub of the clutch disc for wear or misalignment due to having been bent with the weight of the transmission hanging on it during removal or replacement. Is the spring pressure even on your pressure plate?

Is your engine supported with original or float-a-motor mounts? Float-a-motors can allow the engine to move around and get out of alignment. One simple test is to see if your hand crank goes straight and easy into the pulley nut.

These are some out-of-the-box ideas that may help. let us know what finally fixes the problem.

06-26-2017, 03:01 PM	#1
sethkestenbaum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 632	Seth's Phaeton Adventure I've been offline for quite some time and am hoping to be back on the road at some point this Summer. I am looking for some help from the braintrust that is Fordbarn. A bunch of us here in NY/NJ are continuing to trouble shoot my 1929 Phaeton which has been kicking out of gear since the transmission, engine, and Ujoint have been restored/replaced/rebuilt. About a month or two ago, I passed the car to our club mechanic/guru in hope he could figure it out. He has been trying things with no resolve. We have eliminated many of the common causes using Tom Endy's article as a guide. 1) The tower has been swapped with a known working one. It didn't help. 2) The transmission has been apart and together a few times. ALL parts are new (and matching). There seem to be all sitting right, snug and nothing is appearing to be worn. There doesn't seem to be any excessive clearance showing as per a slider gear gap. 3) The 600 oil is correct (Bratton's best) 4) The brass horse shoe shims are in and the housing was replaced (the old one had a warp beyond the normal specs. The car still comes out of gear when on a hill (under load). The model a mechanic here in the area noted that the universe joint may have an issue with it, so we are going to try to replace that. Thoughts? IF ANYONE HAS A GOOD OLD UNIVERSAL for an early 1929, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. If anyone has any other insights or is a definitive expert on repairing Model A's that kick out of gear, please let me know. I would like to get you in touch with the mechanic taking the lead on the repair. I've got to imagine that I am not the only one who has had such a problem. Thanks, Seth __________________ Seth Kestenbaum www.oldcarroadtrip.com

06-26-2017, 05:56 PM	#2
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Seth's Phaeton Adventure Was the "new" housing "dialed" in correctly?? Paul in CT Miss your posts and hope you're doing well........

06-26-2017, 06:59 PM	#3
jb-ob Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 640	Re: Seth's Phaeton Adventure Seth, Glad to see you are willing to give it one more 'college try'. Add to clutch housing & fly wheel relationship, have a look at the Service Bulletins p.294 Flexible Front End Support pages. Simple enough to check to see if the engine /trans are positioned properly in the chassis. Check the frame sag at the same point ( motor mounts), all of which puts a strain on the u joint & trans. Time to search beyond the 'box'. Good hunting, JB

06-26-2017, 10:20 PM	#4
al's28/33 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Redwood City, CA Posts: 1,591	Re: Seth's Phaeton Adventure Seth so sorry to hear about your transmission, wish I could help but I will be thinking of you and your issue I hope it turns out well soon so your Phaeton can get back on the road! GOOD LUCK!! __________________ 1928 "A" Phaeton (mid year with many early features) 1933 "V8" Closed-Cab Pickup Truck (originally a Model B, 4 Cylinder dating to May, 1933)

06-26-2017, 10:44 PM	#5
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Seth's Phaeton Adventure The crankshaft, tranny input and output shafts must be in a perfectly straight line. So, the flywheel cover must be dialed in, the input shaft bearing and pilot bearings must be good, and the output shaft bearing, and bearing between the input and output shafts must be good. I'd check these items first. Also, the 2-3 gear must have a snug sliding fit to the shaft.

06-26-2017, 11:54 PM	#6
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,112	Re: Seth's Phaeton Adventure Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Since you're getting proficient at removing and installing the engine/transmission multiple times and it's no longer a daunting task for you, try temporarily switching the entire transmission with a known good one, or even a greasy old tranny lying around. That will tell you right away if your transmission is at fault. No big deal to put yours back if that's not the problem. If the known good one also jumps out of gear, you need to keep looking elsewhere for the cause, as others have suggested. If it doesn't jump out of gear, then you'll know for sure there's something wrong inside your transmission. Marshall

06-27-2017, 01:01 AM	#7
KenCoupe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 239	Re: Seth's Phaeton Adventure I know you have had the transmission out and restored or rebuilt it. However, there are several roller bearings in the transmission that could be a problem. In the main bearing there is a short roller bearing. In the main cluster gear there is a long bearing, a spacer, and a short roller bearing. I had the similar problem as yours that the transmission would pop out of third gear under load. It turns out that when I took the transmission apart, the main cluster gear had an incorrect spacer and an incorrect roller bearing. Once I put the correct spacer and bearing in, I no longer had the problem of the gear popping out.

06-27-2017, 05:13 PM	#8
heckstein Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 2	Re: Seth's Phaeton Adventure It seems you have tried all the common places to look. You said the flywheel housing has been replaced and shims used on the two ears at the top behind the engine. Has the flywheel been checked for planarity with the housing? More than .010" wobble is cause for concern. Is the crankshaft flange in perfect planarity? More than .003" at the edge of the flange is a concern. Are there burrs on the flywheel flange or flywheel that could cause the two to not sit flat with each other? Is there run out of the pilot bearing hole in the flywheel? If so, remount the flywheel 180 degrees and recheck. The pilot bearing has to be dead center. Check the hub of the clutch disc for wear or misalignment due to having been bent with the weight of the transmission hanging on it during removal or replacement. Is the spring pressure even on your pressure plate? Is your engine supported with original or float-a-motor mounts? Float-a-motors can allow the engine to move around and get out of alignment. One simple test is to see if your hand crank goes straight and easy into the pulley nut. These are some out-of-the-box ideas that may help. let us know what finally fixes the problem.