Timing issue

[palmaceae]

Hello all,
I finally got my fuel leak fixed but installing an original sediment bulb and new fuel lines, but know I am working on my next issue, timing. I followed the instructions on the Les Andrews book. I got the timing real close but I can not get it perfect. I installed a new points, with the correct gap, new distributor cam, new plugs, etc... I can only get it close when the spark advance is all the way up, when you pull it down you lose power, it seems like when the lever is all the way up it runs like it should when the lever is all the way down, and I just can not get that sweet spot. I am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong? Is there a secret to this? There is a little play in the distributor shaft, maybe 1/8" and the most. Any ideas?
Thanks

[Kurt in NJ]

When you say you have play in the dist shaft is it side to side, up and down, or rotational?

If you grab the point plate can you move it side to side ---I just took a dist out of my brothers engine, it had all new parts in it (all repro), the point plate fit so loose that I could move it sideways and change the point gap .030

it is also possible that the wire under the plate is damaged and shorting out

[palmaceae]

The play is rotational, is that normal?

[Kurt in NJ]

Yes, and no, you just have to make allowances for the play --I don't know about how Les says to do it, never read his book, Marco has a method close to how I do it,
http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm

[Marco Tahtaras]

If there is lateral slop in the upper plate as Kurt was asking then the point gap could be changing when you advance the lever. Other than that it sounds like your timing is way too far advanced. This could happen if you really didn't find the depression in the timing gear when you inserted the pin. Another possibility is a Model B front timing cover which would throw you off similarly.

[johnbuckley]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Sounds like the distributor needs retarding a couple of notches

[Ken B]

I ran into a similar problem. After much frustration, I noticed that the arm coming out of the distributor wasn't all the way to the fully retarded position with the lever on the steering column all the way up. I had to loosen the steering column clamps and rotate the column until the arm was fully retarded. I also had a problem with the reproduction distributor body opening for this arm. It was cut in the wrong position. I put the old original back on and made my adjustments to the column. The timing adjusted just fine after making these corrections.

[roccaas]

If you don't mind taking off the head, turn the engine to #1 TDC (both valves closed).

With a cold chisel, tap a small cleft into the TDC of the crank pulley (not for show cars obviously). Put a small drop of paint on the timing case in line with the cleft. When you time the engine, make sure you look straight down onto the cleft and paint spot. Looking for the marks from the side of the engine engenders parallax which can throw off your TDC timing. A step ladder and looking down from above the radiator is a good way to line up everything.

There was an old article on making a sheet metal arrow that bolts to the head and drops down to point to the TDC cleft. It makes timing my engine on the road very easy.

Make sure you don't time with #1 at TDC on the exhaust stroke or you will have an exhaust manifold full of gas, and all the oil washed off of the cylinder bores!

This is also a good time to check the gasket for blow through between #3 and #4, water leaks, gasket overlap into the cylinders, etc. Tighten and retorque the head in the correct pattern as described elsewhere on this site.

Don't want to remove the head? Take off #1 plug, get someone with slim fingers to feel for the piston TDC (again on combustion) and set the TDC from that position. A little harder to do because the Model A engine is a few degrees past the connecting rod at perfect vertical when the piston is at TDC, but it can be done. Again, use the timing pin as a 2nd opinion on TDC.

Tighten the fan belt and you can rock the engine a few degrees clockwise and counter clockwise to ensure TDC without having to use the hand crank.

I use Marco's excellent check list to set the timing, and the TDC mark is easier to use (and a good double check for the timing pin - measure twice, cut once) when you are setting the timing.

Make sure your distributor is in GREAT shape. Slop leads to widely varying gaps which are annoying and make for less than smooth driving.

I get that sewing machine sound at full spark retard (people love to hear each cylinder firing), and great power at full spark advance.

[1931 flamingo]

All of the above plus Snyder's offers a Cam Tool on pg A-145 of their catalog. Made by Nu-Rex, after finding TDC makes setting timing foo-proof.
p/n A-12210-CX 1928-31 $9.75
Worked for me easier than following Les Andrews and Marco's guidance. JMO
Paul in CT

[palmaceae]

I did find the correct TDC, the dimple was worn down but I know I have it correct and it is not 180 degrees off. I just seem like I get it close then try to move the cam again it goes way off. I will check the lever and where it connects to the distributor again to make sure it is touching both stops.
I also did use that Synders cam tool, works great to get it close.

[Chris in CT]

Hi Palmaceae, If you have 0.125 rotational play (wear) in your distributor shaft, then you have a serious problem. With the point gap at 0.022, you can easily see how it would be impossible either to set or keep the point gap with the radius of the rotational play affecting your points by 0.062. With all due respect to the above good advice, I don't see how you can utilize it until you repair/rebush the distributor shaft. Ramp, advance, dwell, and induction soak are all affected by the point gap and profile of the distributor cam. Rotational free play in the system affects these profoundly. Good Luck!

[palmaceae]

Originally Posted by Chris in CT

Hi Palmaceae, If you have 0.125 rotational play (wear) in your distributor shaft, then you have a serious problem. With the point gap at 0.022, you can easily see how it would be impossible either to set or keep the point gap with the radius of the rotational play affecting your points by 0.062. With all due respect to the above good advice, I don't see how you can utilize it until you repair/rebush the distributor shaft. Ramp, advance, dwell, and induction soak are all affected by the point gap and profile of the distributor cam. Rotational free play in the system affects these profoundly. Good Luck!

Would I replace the entire distributor assembly? How would I go about rebushing the shaft, or would I have to replace the shaft?

[RonC]

Your best bet would be to buy a complete rebuilt distributor with a stock point setup. They are available from the various parts suppliers. I would stick with an origianl rebuilt over a reproduction distributor which are also available.

[Rowdy]

Possibly you are the victom of the misdrilled timing gears mentioned awhile back. Just a thought. Rod

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Chris in CT

Hi Palmaceae, If you have 0.125 rotational play (wear) in your distributor shaft, then you have a serious problem. With the point gap at 0.022, you can easily see how it would be impossible either to set or keep the point gap with the radius of the rotational play affecting your points by 0.062. With all due respect to the above good advice, I don't see how you can utilize it until you repair/rebush the distributor shaft. Ramp, advance, dwell, and induction soak are all affected by the point gap and profile of the distributor cam. Rotational free play in the system affects these profoundly. Good Luck!

It sounds like you are confusing rotational play (backlash from slop in the linkages) with lateral movement from slop in the bushings.

[palmaceae]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

Possibly you are the victom of the misdrilled timing gears mentioned awhile back. Just a thought. Rod

Do you mean the dimple on the timing gear?

[palmaceae]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

It sounds like you are confusing rotational play (backlash from slop in the linkages) with lateral movement from slop in the bushings.

I may be, there is no lateral movement, just rotational play.

[Rowdy]

No the crank timing gear where it lines up with the mark on the cam gear is on the wrong side of the key way. This was discussed alittle over a month ago. I will see if I can find it. Rod

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by RonC

Your best bet would be to buy a complete rebuilt distributor with a stock point setup. They are available from the various parts suppliers. I would stick with an origianl rebuilt over a reproduction distributor which are also available.

Most "professionally rebuilt" distributors I've seen were less than ideal. The most common problems are junk shafts or cams (or both) which make the point gaps vary, and slop in the upper plate from poor fit at the center hole.

[palmaceae]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

No the crank timing gear where it lines up with the mark on the cam gear is on the wrong side of the key way. This was discussed alittle over a month ago. I will see if I can find it. Rod

Oh ok, I will say it used to run good, but when I had a short in the distributor a couple months back this reset the timing since I took the cam off, I have not had it right since then.

[Rowdy]

If it ran good before, not likely the problem then. Rod

[Ron/IA]

With all due respect; the answers to palmaceae are useful, but I don't think we are leading him in the correct direction.

I have 1/8" rotational play in my distributor, and the timing works exactly as it should. I have good power, optimum water temperature, and good gas mileage. In my opinion rotational play has no bad affect. However, if the bushing to shaft fit is loose, or the points mounting plate is loose; then I do agree they will affect timing.

When setting my timing, I make sure I take up the rotational play before tightening the point cam screw. Normally, that rotational play is taken up when the motor is running. To check my timing, I retard the spark lever fully; then while holding the coil wire near a head bolt I advance the spark lever, and within one or two notches a spark should occur. If not, I readjust the point cam position until it does.

As long as palmaceae doesn't have excess play in the shaft/bushing, or in the points mounting plate; he should be able to time his Model A and it will run correctly.

I have not deduced what palmaceae's problem is. I want to think (as mentioned above) that the timing is too far advanced. I would have to get my hands on it to see if I could solve his problem.

I see we both live in Iowa, but I am in east-central, and he is in the NW. I'm afraid that would not be a short commute.

I hope this information helps.

[Rowdy]

Same probelme here being in West central Nebraska. Likely be a 5-6 hr drive each way. Would make for a long trip especially the drive home after consuming a 12 pack or so figuring it out. Rod

[palmaceae]

Originally Posted by Ron/IA

With all due respect; the answers to palmaceae are useful, but I don't think we are leading him in the correct direction.

I have 1/8" rotational play in my distributor, and the timing works exactly as it should. I have good power, optimum water temperature, and good gas mileage. In my opinion rotational play has no bad affect. However, if the bushing to shaft fit is loose, or the points mounting plate is loose; then I do agree they will affect timing.

When setting my timing, I make sure I take up the rotational play before tightening the point cam screw. Normally, that rotational play is taken up when the motor is running. To check my timing, I retard the spark lever fully; then while holding the coil wire near a head bolt I advance the spark lever, and within one or to notches a spark should occur. If not, I readjust the point cam position until it does.

As long as palmaceae doesn't have excess play in the shaft/bushing, or in the points mounting plate; he should be able to time his Model A and it will run correctly.

I have not deduced what palmaceae's problem is. I want to think (as mentioned above) that the timing is too far advanced. I would have to get my hands on it to see if I could solve his problem.

I see we both live in Iowa, but I am in east-central, and he is in the NW. I'm afraid that would not be a short commute.

I hope this information helps.

Thanks Ron,
Yes it would be a long commute! I may not be explaining it correctly, but the problem is I get the timing close as mentioned above, so I try move the cam in very small increments but I seem to move it too much and I just can not get that "sweet spot" where the timing is perfect. Now if the points are not gapped correctly can that cause this. I have checked it but I will check it again.

[Ron/IA]

palmaceae - That is a good question; someone on Fordbarn once stated timing will change with point gap adjustment. But I haven't convinced myself that happens (I haven't visualize the idea). I do know that point gap affects coil saturation. The closer that gap, the more saturation, and vise-a-versa.

I have always wanted to play with my timing by just adjusting the point gap, but haven't yet. I like driving the car too much, and tend to just maintain and fix when necessary.

I think you stated you have a cam wrench. I don't, but sometimes wished I did. I would think you can make finer adjustments to cam position using that wrench. I have noticed some of the vendors have a degree wheel you can put on the distirbutor, and using the wrench with said wheel make adjustments. Maybe that's what you need to see just how much that last adjustment was.

All I can say for right now is to keep trying. Is there a MAFCA or MARC club in your area? If so, maybe a knowledgable member in that club could look things over.

[cars56]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

KenB has a very good point. Same issue, spark advance was not all the way retarded or advanced.
2 tooth steering? Loosen the bracket and rotate the steering column so that the spark advance touches both sides of the dist body.

Rob

[palmaceae]

Originally Posted by Ron/IA

palmaceae - That is a good question; someone on Fordbarn once stated timing will change with point gap adjustment. But I haven't convinced myself that happens (I haven't visualize the idea). I do know that point gap affects coil saturation. The closer that gap, the more saturation, and vise-a-versa.

I have always wanted to play with my timing by just adjusting the point gap, but haven't yet. I like driving the car too much, and tend to just maintain and fix when necessary.

I think you stated you have a cam wrench. I don't, but sometimes wished I did. I would think you can make finer adjustments to cam position using that wrench. I have noticed some of the vendors have a degree wheel you can put on the distirbutor, and using the wrench with said wheel make adjustments. Maybe that's what you need to see just how much that last adjustment was.

All I can say for right now is to keep trying. Is there a MAFCA or MARC club in your area? If so, maybe a knowledgable member in that club could look things over.

Thanks, I did not even think about using the cam wrench, I probably can make finer adjustments that way.

[palmaceae]

Originally Posted by cars56

KenB has a very good point. Same issue, spark advance was not all the way retarded or advanced.
2 tooth steering? Loosen the bracket and rotate the steering column so that the spark advance touches both sides of the dist body.
Rob

I will try this tonight. Thanks

[marc hildebrant]

Just checking the basics...(I learned this the hard way).

You need to use a cam wrench to hold the cam while you tighten the cam screw. Also, approach the turning of the cam to find the "break point" in the directions (CW or CCW) as shown in the Andrews book. Makes a BIG difference.

Marc

[palmaceae]

Originally Posted by marc hildebrant

Just checking the basics...(I learned this the hard way).

You need to use a cam wrench to hold the cam while you tighten the cam screw. Also, approach the turning of the cam to find the "break point" in the directions (CW or CCW) as shown in the Andrews book. Makes a BIG difference.

Marc

What do you mean by break point, is it when the points start to open?

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Ron/IA

palmaceae - That is a good question; someone on Fordbarn once stated timing will change with point gap adjustment. But I haven't convinced myself that happens (I haven't visualize the idea). I do know that point gap affects coil saturation. The closer that gap, the more saturation, and vise-a-versa.

Think of it this way: Lets say you are running an "A" distributor cam which has symmetrical lobes. Now, start with a point gap that provides 30° of dwell (points closed for 30°). Next, reduce the point gap to provide a dwell of 40°. With the symmetrical cam lobes that means the points close 5 distributor degrees earlier and open 5 distributor degrees LATER. That translates to 10 crankshaft degrees later that the points will break.

It is VERY important to always time your engine with the point gap adjusted as you intend to run in normally. Once that is done, the timing will return to correct when you readjust the point gap (to normal) when correcting for wear of the rubbing block.

[Ron/IA]

Marco - thank you for your explanation. I can "visualize the idea" now. Point gap reduced, timing retarded....point gap increased, timing advanced. I'll have to remember that.

Also, you very correct the point gap should be adjusted before setting the cam.

[palmaceae]

OK stupid question, the point gap should be adjusted when fully open, correct, meaning on the "top" edge of the cam?

[Ron/IA]

Yes, that is correct. Or in other words, the point wiper on the lobe of the cam.

[Marco Tahtaras]

LET'S START OVER!!!

There have been many good points expressed here but 90% of them have little or nothing to do with your immediate problem, thus only add confusion.

First, read through my timing page a time or two. Kurt provided a link but here it is again:

http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm

Now, from your description it sounds like it is too far advanced as I said before. I suggested a "B" timing cover which is a long shot and certainly would not apply if you've ever successfully timed this engine before. If it's an "A" production period timing cover then there will be a small round boss where the the timing pin screws into the cover. A "B" cover will have a very obvious elongated boss with the timing pin screwed in at one end of that boss.

Ok, lets say you have the correct cover. It is very possible you THOUGHT you hit the timing mark with the pin. You may not have done so. My timing page has more info and thoughts on that issue.

Lastly, the timing may be in the ball park and the distributor is simply shorting out when you advance the lever. This DOES NOT match your description but I can't assume anything. You said you changed the points. If the pig tail wire was incorrectly positioned or has other problems it could be arcing ONLY when the plate is rotated toward the advanced position. This would actually cause some misfiring which again is not what you described but it would certainly result in a loss of power.

[palmaceae]

Marco,
I did try to find the timing mark (it is an "A" timing cover) but was not successful so I removed the #1 plug and found TDC (it had to be correct because it was not 180 degrees off). I know this was just ballpark but it was close. I do not think it is a short in the distributor because I had that problem before and this is not acting the same way. I will take a look at your web article and try it again tonight.
Thanks

[Patrick L.]

Once you have found TDC thru the sparkler hole then you may have better luck finding it with the timing pin.. You'll be able to swing the crankshaft 5-10 degrees or so without moving the piston so locating the hole/dimple in the camshaft gear is pretty important.. The dimples in some replacement gears are/is pretty small and hard to feel at times, grinding a bit more of a point on the timing pin helps or even using a scratch awl or small phillips screwdriver.. Removing all the sparklers makes it easier to spin the engine by hand..

[palmaceae]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Once you have found TDC thru the sparkler hole then you may have better luck finding it with the timing pin.. You'll be able to swing the crankshaft 5-10 degrees or so without moving the piston so locating the hole/dimple in the camshaft gear is pretty important.. The dimples in some replacement gears are/is pretty small and hard to feel at times, grinding a bit more of a point on the timing pin helps or even using a scratch awl or small phillips screwdriver.. Removing all the sparklers makes it easier to spin the engine by hand..

That is what I tried, and I think I found the dimple but it may have been my imagination. It certainly was not pronounced. I will try either a screwdriver or what Marco suggested on his web site.
Thanks

[mrtexas]

Here is what I did to time my A correctly. I thought I had followed the directions of how to do it manually but still overheating. I bought a timing gauge available from the usual vendors for $10 and installed it on the bolt(if you don't like the looks of it take it off when done). I put a white paint timing mark on the pulley after verifying TDC, I even took off the timing cover to make sure as the indents in timing gears were small and hard to find. Low and behold when I used by timing light I was way off, something like 19 degrees too retarded. If you are timing challenged like me, nothing beats using a timing light to check your work. No more wrong timing. Some will say a timing light isn't necessary. I say it may not be necessary for them but it was for me.

[skip]

Your correct gap was 0.020" right?

No flat feeler guages for me. I usually twist them [the feelers] 'tween the points and end up with something other than 0.020.

Although not this gaper pictured here but one I have with 0.020 and 0.023 wires and I use the wire as a 'GO' ~ 'No Go' Gage while I hold the distributor in my hand. It takes a little time but finding that sweet spot is worth all the efforts.

Once the gap is set than it's onward to the point cam/timing setting, taking out the 'slop' and that my friends is an art and an exersize in frustration. I can only tell if I have it dead nuts by running the engine and with full retard to generate that lope of 1-3-4-2 that no other engine has.

skip.

[Bruce Adams]

Hi Skip,
To take up the "slop" without doing it correctly by rebuilding your distributor, you can try taking up the slop in the cam by rotating the cam clockwise, taking up the "slop", and then loosen the screw and rotate it, clockwise while at TDC until the points JUST CLOSE, which is the same as rotating CCW until they just START OPENING.

This should give you a good starting point.

[palmaceae]

Good news everyone, thanks to all here that helped I got it timed correctly. The first thing that was off was the spark advance lever, so I adjusted that (thanks Ken). Then even though I did adjust the points gap it was way off, barely opening, not sure how that happened but it is correct now. I also used a philips srew driver to find the timing dimple and then followed Marco's article and I have a nice running A again.
Thanks again for everyone's help!

[RonC]

You can check your timing by retarding the spark lever, remove the distributor cap and body, turn on the ignition key (make sure your car is in neutral with E-Brake on). Press on the timing pin and slowly crank the engine until the pin sets into the timing gear recess. Do this while watching the points. At the exact moment the timing pin falls into the timing gear recess the points should spark. If not your timing is off.

[roccaas]

One little point:

If the screw that holds down the cam slips while the shaft is turning, timing is a mess. It is probably not a best practice, but we put a thin lock washer under the cam screw on an old barn find, and the cam slipped no more!

[Old182]

Could it be that palmaceae's rotaional slop is from the distributor gear riding up the camshaft teeth when the distributoir shaft is being turned by hand? A simple check for vertical movement would prove or disprove that scenario. I only mention this because my distributor has similar play and I believe it's from slop in the distributor teeth and the camshaft. I figure when the engine's running, there's always torque on the shaft and all the play is taken out, except, perhaps at idle, and so I time it accordingly. It would be a shame (and costly) to buy a new distributor and not solve the problem for lack of a simple check. $0.02.